The Musician's Gig Room Chat V1 - Songwriting and Sound Design for all!

[paindoc]

[QUOTE=wauterboi;49282774]I looked into it and it looks like they use something closer to "native", like AAX or RTAS or something like that, so I kind of redact my earlier statements. I wonder what performance gain they get for not implementing VST, though. I thought VST was the go-to in the audio world.

[editline]9th December 2015[/editline]

Take a break.[/QUOTE]

I'm realizing the last part now, it's finals time anyways so I need to focus so I deleted all the short cuts and executables for Ableton. It always seemed that when I stressed less and took a break for a week I could come back creative and good to go.

Building a routine has helped, and artificial constraints or forcing yourself to do something new or different can both foster creativity. TheDrunkenOne have you thought about trying to produce a genre you've never even attempted before, or trying something like a sample pack challenge?

[killerteacup]

[QUOTE=KmartSqrl;49282573]Pro tools has had RTAS for a long time though.

[editline]9th December 2015[/editline]

Max 4 Live. Max can load and run vsts.[/QUOTE]

pro tools 11 does not support rtas

[editline]10th December 2015[/editline]

pro tools 11 doesn't support anything but AAX - its a walled garden. Shit, but that's how it works.

There is no widely adopted open source formats for software synths - VST is an old format that is only popular because its been around for longer, and its owned by Steinberg (Cubase). AU is what Apple uses on Logic, and RTAS WAS used by pro tools as an alternative to VSTs, but is almost as old as VSTs and now Pro Tools 11 uses AAX.

most popular DAWs have made their own soft synth format so they have control over the format, which means they can optimise way better and make their program faster, because signal processing is notoriously expensive

VST is popular simply because cubase used to be more popular and because lots of DAWs support it, but its old as the hills now. People will move on eventually.

[QUOTE=KmartSqrl;49282831]That's a really recent feature, and afaik not a performance related decision. It's more to do with giving plugin devs the ability to add the whole flipping the rack around and rewiring shit thing to their plugins because that's one of Reason's major features and wouldn't be doable the same way purely with VST plugins.[/QUOTE]

It is a performance related decision. AAX is natively 64 bit to support pro tools going 64 bit and is faster and more streamlined for pro tools 11

Its probably not SOLELY a performance related decision but performance was a huge part of it

[KmartSqrl]

[QUOTE=killerteacup;49283168]Its probably not SOLELY a performance related decision but performance was a huge part of it[/QUOTE]

Whoops. I'm talking about Reason there, not PT haha...

[killerteacup]

[QUOTE=KmartSqrl;49283229]Cool, but I'm talking about Reason there, not PT haha...[/QUOTE]

o..

[editline]10th December 2015[/editline]

i can read i swear

[KmartSqrl]

Forgot about the switch to AAX from RTAS though. Still, they have a VST alternative and they're pretty much always had one. Reason support for third party plugins IS pretty recent.

[editline]9th December 2015[/editline]

[QUOTE=killerteacup;49283232]i can read i swear[/QUOTE]

Haha. To be fair it did sound like it was talking about PT if you just glanced at the quote and didn't scroll to previous posts :P

[killerteacup]

its a shame though because when somebody makes a free plugin they almost always just do VST

I run VST on reaper and my girlfriend runs tools and she keeps asking me for my soft synths and I'm like welp, sucks to be you

[editline]10th December 2015[/editline]

[QUOTE=KmartSqrl;49283240]Forgot about the switch to AAX from RTAS though. Still, they have a VST alternative and they're pretty much always had one. Reason support for third party plugins IS pretty recent.

[editline]9th December 2015[/editline]

Haha. To be fair it did sound like it was talking about PT if you just glanced at the quote and didn't scroll to previous posts :P[/QUOTE]

i was triggered

[Liem]

I've been trying my hand at arranging jazz standards for small groups, I know it's not the best work ever. I've been looking for advice on what to do with the harmony parts instead of just half notes, but I'm having trouble finding rhythms that don't clash with the melody line. (These are both kinda rough, about an hour each)
[url=https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-1MGYWmb_2fMWlQRzFQMnRqS0k/view?usp=sharing]Example 1[/url]
[url=https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-1MGYWmb_2fRzdGRGQwSENMQ3M/view?usp=sharing]Example 2[/url]

[editline]10th December 2015[/editline]

(also, I know the levels on the different parts are fucked. I didn't want to fuck around with dynamics because the software I'm stuck with right now is shit)

[killerteacup]

[QUOTE=Liem;49284504]I've been trying my hand at arranging jazz standards for small groups, I know it's not the best work ever. I've been looking for advice on what to do with the harmony parts instead of just half notes, but I'm having trouble finding rhythms that don't clash with the melody line. (These are both kinda rough, about an hour each)
[url=https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-1MGYWmb_2fMWlQRzFQMnRqS0k/view?usp=sharing]Example 1[/url]
[url=https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-1MGYWmb_2fRzdGRGQwSENMQ3M/view?usp=sharing]Example 2[/url]

[editline]10th December 2015[/editline]

(also, I know the levels on the different parts are fucked. I didn't want to fuck around with dynamics because the software I'm stuck with right now is shit)[/QUOTE]

[img]http://i.imgur.com/qlFuRED.jpg[/img]

[Number-41]

[QUOTE=Liem;49284504]I've been trying my hand at arranging jazz standards for small groups, I know it's not the best work ever. I've been looking for advice on what to do with the harmony parts instead of just half notes, but I'm having trouble finding rhythms that don't clash with the melody line. (These are both kinda rough, about an hour each)
[url=https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-1MGYWmb_2fMWlQRzFQMnRqS0k/view?usp=sharing]Example 1[/url]
[url=https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-1MGYWmb_2fRzdGRGQwSENMQ3M/view?usp=sharing]Example 2[/url]

[editline]10th December 2015[/editline]

(also, I know the levels on the different parts are fucked. I didn't want to fuck around with dynamics because the software I'm stuck with right now is shit)[/QUOTE]

There are several approaches. One is to "support" the melody, i.e. provide harmonic assistance but not overpower it. The way you did it now is going in that direction, but it indeed requires more variation. I would say it is important that you highlight the [I]changes[/I], not just the chords. Say you have something like (two beats per chord unless specified otherwise)
CMaj7-FMaj7-Em7-A7-Dm7 (4 beats)

If you play each chord it's gonna be really crowded, so what you can do is just briefly highlight CMaj7 (like an eighth or something), same with FMaj7 and then do longer notes on Em7-A7 and Dm7 short again. If it doesn't change, no need to constantly play it.

Good example (albeit it's much more than that):
[media]https://youtu.be/_11BAZlrNUs?t=36[/media]

To find rhythmic variation, I would suggest listening to the melody being played and think you are a pianist that has to accompany the melody. Just tap the rhythm, see which parts really "ask" for some harmony and which parts are evident without harmony. Then write that rhythm down.

Next up is varying your voicings. The most basic way is of course plain 4-note chords as they are defined by the symbols and use their inversions to have smooth transition. This is already too much. To provide harmonic assistance, you don't need the 1 (the bass plays this) and the 5 is sometimes necessary but also not essential. If you inspect a iim7-V7-IMaj7 you'll see it's the 3 and 7 that do the heavy lifting. So those two notes are essential, which leaves two more notes that are rather free. You can use those as color notes, e.g. throw in a 9 or a 13. How do you pick the appropriate one? Look at the melody, the melody will give many clues as to which notes are good colour notes.

If you know how to comp on piano, it's also useful to just look at how a piano comps and almost literally use that. They're ultimately doing the same thing.

I also found a [URL="http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php/61405-Lesson-17-Writing-for-4-or-More-Voices-(Cont-)?"]link[/URL] that goes more in depth (the whole course is probably really good to learn). To be honest I never had any formal training in arranging or having a wind section accompany a melody so I might be talking out my ass, but I have experienced that these are steps in the right direction.

Also use perhaps some sort of question and answer structure to keep things not too crowded.

Also, just [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GavVjuVko0]steal[/url] shit :v: It's educational so it's ok to do that.

Oh and a last thing is, I don't know if it's good to try to come up with things when you have the melody being played by MIDI instruments in such a dry and sterile way, maybe record yourself doing the melody with a jazzy feel?

[paindoc]

Yay :D

:snip:

So excited, I'm publishing for BassGorilla and so far Luke (Xenflex) has been really cool and has a lot of great advice. I hope to keep doing this, I can really use the money for apartment payments so can have my own place this summer. And I have a lot of fun writing the articles, so getting paid and having an audience is even better. Also, he really did like my article a lot so that's pretty cool too :D

I snipped the image because I'm paranoid as hell and it would make it too easy to find me irl, lol. Anyways that's not as important, money is cool I'm just psyched about the rest and how much progress this represents for me in terms of hobbies, mental health, personal growth, and so much more.

[chaz13]

[QUOTE=bull04;49277656]Regardless of whether this was made with loops, I love the superhero vibe this gives off. Maybe on the beginning synths, you could add some reverb to give it a bit more atmosphere. Other than that, good work on this one!

Released this track over Halloween a month or so ago. Let me know what you guys think!
[media]https://soundcloud.com/bull04/bullseye-lethal-original-mix-happy-halloween[/media][/QUOTE]

Hah, this is fucking brilliant. Got me hooked from the very first hit! I'm not a fan of the melody in the intro, it feels a bit random and not very well thought out - the synth itself it's nice though. The string samples near the end of the intro feel a bit out of time with the rest of the song, moving them back just a few ms might help I think. The rest of the song is just great, love the arrangement of the synths etc. Vocal samples are nice!

Been messing around with some new styles, going more dancy/experimental to practice compositional skills etc:

[media]https://soundcloud.com/prizymmusic/edm808[/media]

[KmartSqrl]

Anyone have recommendations for music theory books that go in depth and are beyond the "THIS IS HOW U READ SHEET MUSIC. THIS IS A KEY. THIS IS A MELODY" stuff?

[paindoc]

[QUOTE=KmartSqrl;49289177]Anyone have recommendations for music theory books that go in depth and are beyond the "THIS IS HOW U READ SHEET MUSIC. THIS IS A KEY. THIS IS A MELODY" stuff?[/QUOTE]

Composing Music A new Approach, Study of Counterpoint, and Guide to the Practical study of harmony are all on my xmas list. Harmony for computer musicians seemed nice too, but I looked specifically for in depth books since I really love piano and classical pieces. Still, all of those should be relevant for for the informalities inherent to electronic music since knowing the lay of the land intimately means you know how best to venture into new territory.

I need to work on the same stuff, so yeah

[splenda]

If you are willing to think a little more outside the box, reading against the grain if you will but not in the normal sense of the word, books on music cognition can be very helpful for music theory, because it goes into how your brain perceives music instead of just "this is how you mix a pop song." A book I just finished reading was [URL=https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/sweet-anticipation]Sweet Anticipation by David Huron[/url] and it goes pretty in depth into topics concerning attributes of music that will affect people in certain ways. Also check out stuff from institutes like [URL=http://www.ircam.fr/?&L=1]IRCAM[/URL] because the crazy shit they do might spark ideas. They have a few books out but a lot of them are in french though.

If you want to go much more in depth about music and stuff, like music theory on steroids, there are some good books on the mathematical principles of music. [URL=http://www.musimathics.com/]I heavily recommend the book Musimathics.[/URL] This book basically spawned my love for mathematics even though most of the stuff in the book went way over my head when I first read it back in 2006.

Two books that I recently finished reading were Electronic Music and Sound Design, volumes [URL=http://www.amazon.com/Electronic-Music-Sound-Design-Practice/dp/8890548401]1[/URL] and [URL=http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/8890548444/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_dp_ss_2?pf_rd_p=1944687502&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=8890548401&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=08R61A78QSB7Q7QGFX1S]2.[/URL] These books are more geared towards those who program in Max/MSP, but there are some more theory topics covered too. Also if you own Ableton and have Max4Live these books are a great introduction to the topic. I have taken a few classes in university in Max, but I gave these books to my dad who is into music stuff and now he is pretty proficient in coding in Max/MSP, even though he had minimal coding experience before reading these books.

I have also heard some good stuff about the book [URL=http://www.amazon.com/Technique-Electroacoustic-Computer-Digital-Series/dp/0895797410] The Art and Technique of Electroacoustic Music (Computer Music and Digital Audio Series[/URL] but I have not had the chance to read it yet so I cannot really speak for it just yet.

I'm currently reading [URL=http://www.amazon.com/Orientations-Collected-Writings-Pierre-Boulez/dp/0674643763/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1449803714&sr=1-1&keywords=Orientations+boulez]Orientations: Collected Writings[/URL] by Pierre Boulez and while it's not strictly about music theory, much like most of the books I listed, it does give some insight on how Boulez views music and stuff. (In case you do not know Pierre Boulez is a famed 20th century composer and the founder of IRCAM.)

Typical music theory books bore me usually, it's probably a mix between me literally growing up learning how to produce and compose electronic and non-electronic music and the fact that my own music has always fallen somewhere under the experimental genre, so I like to "look outside the box" when it comes to current reads. Like don't get me wrong, reading normal theory books on both musicianship and producing (guess you could also include mastering in there too if you want to master your own music but not everyone does) is important, but knowing the theory behind the "theory" allows you to defy typical conventions in ways that are still musical and cognitively pleasing and carve your own sound, making you stand out more from the oversaturated market of producers/musicians.

[editline]10th December 2015[/editline]

Someone who was super cool and did a bunch of interesting studies on music stuff was David Wessel. Sadly he passed away last year, I took a class of his the year of his death and he was a fascinating person, but his legacy of studies of music theory, cognition, and general other topics that are related to computer stuff will live on forever. I do not know how publically available all of his studies are, I am a student at UC Berkeley where he taught so like all of his papers are available for free to me, but each one has giving me major insight into how the brain interprets sound, and I have kept a bunch of his findings in mind while composing.

[editline]10th December 2015[/editline]

One thing that I would personally avoid is those paid classes offered by people like DubSpot and PointBlank that advertise about teaching producing or whatever. All of the information in those classes is available online in some sense, and from what people have told me the classes are overpriced for what they are. I was lucky in that I was able to intern at a recording studio when I was like 12 or something and just being around the professional recording environment helps so much more than a class ever will. I guess I have been kind of spoiled in this though because I grew up surrounded by music, producers, and other professionals of the field so I started really early, like I used to play my dad's synths when I was a toddler and all of my early presents in life were musical instruments of some sense.

[iTeen]

[QUOTE=GmanIsJoker;49246836]I made a little simple, atmospheric track. I really like it and hope you will too.

[media]https://soundcloud.com/ohph33r/bleep[/media][/QUOTE]
Interesting chord progression. The intro seemed a bit long too me. Also I'd expect the intro to be a little more climactic, I'd suggest modulating the beepy synth somehow, maybe making it climb through a low filter. I didn't really care for that high bell synth that comes around halfway point, in particular it seemed a little loud and off-harmony on some notes; I'd say change the melody a little bit and make it a little more meshy with the chords synth. Other than that I really enjoyed the chillness that ensued between 2:00 and 3:00. Sounds like something nice to freestyle to.

[QUOTE=Number-41;49274550]
Made this quickly because I felt like sampling some Bill Evans:

[media]https://soundcloud.com/patronbernard/wetekikket-jong[/media]

Not that happy about the transitions and the lack of the song really "unleashing" itself, possibly because all I have is my laptop keyboard atm. Also I need a more meaty bass sound. Hip Hop Sub in Ableton is way too sterile...[/QUOTE]
Chill is how I would describe it. I do agree with you about the transitions, they seem weak and run-onny. Seems pretty polished, however I would definitely drop the reverb on the snare down a bit, otherwise it stands to take away from the crisp that the song has going for it. Lastly, I actually think that bass fits the songs mood pretty well, I don't think I would change it too much.

Here is a little dance thing I'd like some feedback on before I go for a final draft
[media]https://soundcloud.com/i-am-tino/my-zanzibar-demo-instrumental[/media]

[nixnax123]

Anyone have any recommended Ableton tutorials? I've just got mine, but I don't really understand the workflow. I've just made some ambient stuff, and I'm really interested in taking it further, but my lack of understanding is a hindrance.

[vid]https://a.clyp.it/m1zlehbt.mp3[/vid]

Bass is supposed to come in later and fade out but I don't even know how to do that. :v: So a tutorial would be much appreciated.

[paindoc]

[QUOTE=splenda;49291155]words[/QUOTE]

Oh shiiiiiiiit thanks so much for this post, musimathics seems awesome. All of them seem good, tbh. I just really like classical piano and orchestral pieces and want to try my hand at film scoring, so I wanted to get some classical focus. I still personally favor contemporary artists like Einaudi though, so I won't be going full classic.

Now to decide which to put on xmas list haha

[Adius]

Man I suck at mastering.

[brooklynlord]

[QUOTE=paindoc;49292037]Oh shiiiiiiiit thanks so much for this post, musimathics seems awesome. All of them seem good, tbh. I just really like classical piano and orchestral pieces and want to try my hand at film scoring, so I wanted to get some classical focus. I still personally favor contemporary artists like Einaudi though, so I won't be going full classic.

Now to decide which to put on xmas list haha[/QUOTE]

Might want to try out Harmony, Counterpoint and Orchestration all by Walter Piston. See if you can get older edition books because the newer ones go for a looooooot of money.

I personally haven't gone too much into the counterpoint book because that stuff assumes you know a lot about harmony already, whereas half of orchestration is learning about the instruments themselves. The other half of the battle is learning how to get the right tone colour/sound/timbre from an orchestra, which is gonna be pretty important if you're going to go into film scoring.

Harmony, is, well, harmony.

Counterpoint is complicated stuff to make music actually sophisticated.

[Adeptus]

[QUOTE=Adius Shadow;49292239]Man I suck at mastering.[/QUOTE]

I suck too. It's just practice. A good avice would be to test any masterizing on different sound platforms (your car, cheap earphones, etc).

[editline]11th December 2015[/editline]

Also checked my old alias on soundcloud, it seems someone took it up. To make big room music. Big room. Eugh.

[Adius]

I have this problem making things sound "loud and full"
like I will have the track "mastered" on my end and then I think it sounds pretty good. I'll go listen to another professionally mastered track and everything just feels so much louder...

[paindoc]

[QUOTE=brooklynlord;49292719]Might want to try out Harmony, Counterpoint and Orchestration all by Walter Piston. See if you can get older edition books because the newer ones go for a looooooot of money.

I personally haven't gone too much into the counterpoint book because that stuff assumes you know a lot about harmony already, whereas half of orchestration is learning about the instruments themselves. The other half of the battle is learning how to get the right tone colour/sound/timbre from an orchestra, which is gonna be pretty important if you're going to go into film scoring.

Harmony, is, well, harmony.

Counterpoint is complicated stuff to make music actually sophisticated.[/QUOTE]

Eh, I can always consult someone on the details of orchestration or have an expert do that. A lot of work of daws and fancy stuff like east west libraries removes the need for that.

[chaz13]

[QUOTE=Adius Shadow;49294497]I have this problem making things sound "loud and full"
like I will have the track "mastered" on my end and then I think it sounds pretty good. I'll go listen to another professionally mastered track and everything just feels so much louder...[/QUOTE]

It depends on the genre, but in dance music a lot of the "rules" given to beginners (and rightly so) do often need to be broken to achieve competitive levels of loudness. Saturation, extreme compression and limiting, soft/hard clipping etc is all necessary. I've found it helpful to focus on individual tracks before the master channel, too. Soft clipping and saturating the snare, for example, is regularly useful.

[editline]12th December 2015[/editline]

[QUOTE=paindoc;49287612]Yay :D

:snip:

So excited, I'm publishing for BassGorilla and so far Luke (Xenflex) has been really cool and has a lot of great advice. I hope to keep doing this, I can really use the money for apartment payments so can have my own place this summer. And I have a lot of fun writing the articles, so getting paid and having an audience is even better. Also, he really did like my article a lot so that's pretty cool too :D

I snipped the image because I'm paranoid as hell and it would make it too easy to find me irl, lol. Anyways that's not as important, money is cool I'm just psyched about the rest and how much progress this represents for me in terms of hobbies, mental health, personal growth, and so much more.[/QUOTE]

That's awesome man! You inspired me to pursue a little side job writing articles on production, I'm already starting a DSP tutorial series on my blog so hopefully I'll get some interest :smile: Good job!

[bull04]

[QUOTE=Adius Shadow;49294497]I have this problem making things sound "loud and full"
like I will have the track "mastered" on my end and then I think it sounds pretty good. I'll go listen to another professionally mastered track and everything just feels so much louder...[/QUOTE]
I definitely can understand that frustration. But if you can't go that loud without clipping, I wouldn't worry too much about your volume levels as compared to other artists. I know some artists (of course I don't think it'd be the same genre we're both discussing) who mix amazing but can't quite get that loudness.

As long as you're confident in your mix, the master doesn't have to be dynamicless and squashed to shit. Of course I'm guilty of squashing my dynamics so I shouldn't really be the one giving this advice, but I think you should be okay just mastering to what you feel comfortable with.

[Ott]

Subtle sidechaining can make something sound louder than it actuall is.

[paindoc]

Sounding big is about maintaining dynamic range and then loudening later, filling the stereo field well (be ready for mid/side eq), and filling out the whole frequency spectrum nice and evenly

[paindoc]

[QUOTE=Mech Bgum;49300662]^^

This. And it kinda comes from experience and closely tied to compositional process.
If you don't know where to start, you can watch some turorials and make some by the book track in a popular genre to get better grasp on this stuff.[/QUOTE]

I thiiink varien covers this well in his youtube series. Melodic dubstep is a good genre for practicing this, the genre likes to throw out walls of sound and making it sound huge is tough. Sidechaining and volume automation are tough, but worth it. Volume automation is a pain in the dick in terms of work required, but is better than Sidechaining for depth of ducking performed.

One of my favorite tricks, and one of the ones I went through in my article, is a side chained filter delay with high feedback and high delay on a vocal track. I leave in just the L/R channels and cut the center, and have it compressed so that it swells when the vocal releases. Really creates a cool stereo swelling echo effect that is noticeable and fun to listen to

Heres a demo of me playing with the Monody stems applying what I mentioned above. This was quickly slapped together while in the library hiding from finals studying so not the best example. I also played with automating the stereo depth of the various layers / FX and tried to use the strings to fill the slots where the vocals were weak. I think it works?

[url]https://m.soundcloud.com/nofuchsgiven/vocalfxprocessing2/s-MNPrl[/url]

[MrJazzy]

I need to get a laptop for music production, what do I need? Lots of RAM and good CPU power I'm guessing? Anyone have any tips on what to get? I would like to also use it for a bit of gaming but that's secondary.

[killerteacup]

RAM, CPU, biiig hard drive for track storage which can go out of control

[paindoc]

SSD if you're using fancy kontakt libraries or anything that needs to be streaked from HDD