• How to get started in Web Design?
    47 replies, posted
I split up JavaScript from CSS and HTML because HTML is a markup language and CSS -- like HTML -- is extremely simple. JavaScript, while being part of the user experience and the front end, is more so structured like any other programming language. It takes much more skill to perfect PHP, Ruby, Perl, JS, etc vs CSS and HTML. Sure, there are a few things here and there that are tricky but like many programming languages and tasks, it takes trial and error to figure out how everything will fit together and how you will make everything work. I agree that the three together -- CSS, HTML, and JavaScript create the modern web pages that are fun to be on and interactive to the user. Like you said though, it takes a whole new step when you want to take a design and port it to HTML and CSS and this is a skill that takes time to refine and to perfect. Design in itself is an entirely different beast then web design or web development. It's one of my favorite parts that I'm able to sit down with Photoshop and create an idea and then see it bloom into actual markup and styling on a page later on. I would highly recommend that if anyone is looking to get into website interface design, that you grab a few books on general design concepts including color, composition, etc. You must understand how everything will fit together and how you making small decisions like the color and thinnesses of lines will change the entire site's feel. I'd also recommend that if you really want to get into interface design, that you get a book on user experience design. You may view the site being used one way, but in reality people may use it an entirely different way. Designing while keeping the user's experience in mind, will make your site a whole lot better in the end. For anyone that wants to get into web development with back-end stuff, I suggest that you learn a machine language especially if you want to use PHP. You may think of it as a waste of time, however by learning a machine language and not simply copying and pasting scripts you find on the internet together to form a PHP-based website, you'll actually be taught good programming techniques. If you learn this while on a machine language, they translate over into good programming skills on the web. If you want an 'elegant' language for your web development, I'd suggest that you go with ASP.NET. You can either get this via Mono -- which does have a few issues, or you can use IIS. The latter is probably a better idea if you're looking to develop with ASP.NET. I consider Perl a very dirty, "get it done" language, however it is extremely powerful. I've lost interest in Perl and moved some of my focus to Ruby which is also another powerful web development language. Lastly, if you're like the majority of people, you'll settle with using PHP. I'd highly recommend that you look into using classes with PHP and proper object oriented programming from a machine language (Although PHP is supposed to support more OOP in version 6). Resources for Beginners: [url]http://www.ruby-lang.org/en/[/url] [url]http://www.perl.org/[/url] [url]http://www.asp.net/[/url] [url]http://www.php.net/[/url] [url]http://w3schools.com/html/default.asp[/url] [url]http://w3schools.com/css/default.asp[/url] [editline]12:04AM[/editline] Oh my god I write a lot. :eek:
When I was learning html I had the next tab open as css so that I could learn some html then switch over and go "OHHH that's how they interact". Also, brett your new design on intrepidesign is orgasmic :D
[QUOTE=andersonmat;23953708]For anyone that wants to get into web development with back-end stuff, I suggest that you learn a machine language especially if you want to use PHP. You may think of it as a waste of time, however by learning a machine language and not simply copying and pasting scripts you find on the internet together to form a PHP-based website, you'll actually be taught good programming techniques. If you learn this while on a machine language, they translate over into good programming skills on the web. If you want an 'elegant' language for your web development, I'd suggest that you go with ASP.NET. You can either get this via Mono -- which does have a few issues, or you can use IIS. The latter is probably a better idea if you're looking to develop with ASP.NET. I consider Perl a very dirty, "get it done" language, however it is extremely powerful. I've lost interest in Perl and moved some of my focus to Ruby which is also another powerful web development language. Lastly, if you're like the majority of people, you'll settle with using PHP. I'd highly recommend that you look into using classes with PHP and proper object oriented programming from a machine language (Although PHP is supposed to support more OOP in version 6). Resources for Beginners: [url]http://www.ruby-lang.org/en/[/url] [url]http://www.perl.org/[/url] [url]http://www.asp.net/[/url] [url]http://www.php.net/[/url] [url]http://w3schools.com/html/default.asp[/url] [url]http://w3schools.com/css/default.asp[/url][/QUOTE] Hey OP, if you're looking at what server side technologies to use, I [b]strongly recommend you do not choose PHP[/b]. I'm not trying to force you not to, but you should definitely consider other technologies. I'm not going to advocate any of them, andersonmat has already talked a lot about that. Just whatever you do, [b]please[/b] stay away from PHP. Sure you can do the same stuff in it as other things but that doesn't make it a nice language to use. Please consider other technologies, they are far better and will actually teach you the proper way of doing things (not that this cannot be achieved in PHP, just that PHP makes it exceptionally easy to write shit code) If you run into issues with hosting (as PHP hosting is ubiquitous, where as other technologies are fairly slim pickings as far as shared hosts are concerned), I'm more than happy (and I'm sure there would be other FP'ers willing to help out) to host you on one of my servers.
Go Lua! PHP isn't bad if you're writing decent code, but then again if I was starting fresh I'd start with something else for sure. I started with WordPress and so that's how I ended up learning PHP. I wouldn't say it's a bad language though, if taught correctly it can be very powerful. I've just written a script to process around 100,000 source servers in sub-5 minutes (only slow down is the connection) using 50 child processes, etc, I didn't think PHP would do it so easily.
[QUOTE=Fizzadar;23957766]I wouldn't say it's a bad language though, if taught correctly it can be very powerful.[/QUOTE] Of course it can be powerful, it's a modern-ish language. I just disagree with a lot of the design decisions which are often inconsistent. Example: [code] $me = functionThatReturnsAnArray()[0]; // syntax error $me = functionThatReturnsAnObject()->Hello; // works... [/code] It's also a pain in the ass with multibyte encodings as strings are stored as C strings behind the scenes. There's hacked on support in the form of the mb_ functions, but nothing really all that 'native' (if you get what I mean) PHP was fantastic at what it was originally designed for, but over time new features have been added in a way that makes them feel extremely 'tacked on'. This is probably due to the need for a certain level of backwards-compatibility. I'm sure it would be so much better if the designers had the opportunity to start fresh, but I don't think it's a very good language to use in this day and age when there are so many clearly superior alternatives.
Other than C#, which you advocate devoutly, what other languages? Is there any clear advantage over RoR, for example?
[QUOTE=Qombat;23958046]Other than C#, which you advocate devoutly, what other languages? Is there any clear advantage over RoR, for example?[/QUOTE] I've been careful to remain framework and language-agnostic here, but I know from personal experience that ASP.NET MVC is fantastic, as are RoR and Sinatra. I've not used anything else, so I can't pass judgement on that front.
[QUOTE=turb_;23958173]I've been careful to remain framework and language-agnostic here, but I know from personal experience that ASP.NET MVC is fantastic, as are RoR and Sinatra. I've not used anything else, so I can't pass judgement on that front.[/QUOTE] Yeah, so out of the two (remaining agnostic of course) which would be a better choice all around?
[QUOTE=Qombat;23958208]Yeah, so out of the two (remaining agnostic of course) which would be a better choice all around?[/QUOTE] Picking a better choice is not being agnostic. There were also three I mentioned.
[QUOTE=turb_;23958393]Picking a better choice is not being agnostic. There were also three I mentioned.[/QUOTE] I mean without pointless bias. I missed Sinatra. My bad.
[QUOTE=Qombat;23958517]I mean without pointless bias. I missed Sinatra. My bad.[/QUOTE] Alright, well for large scale things, I would recommend (out of what I've mentioned, I want to stress that I'm not intentionally disregarding other technologies) either ASP.NET MVC (WebForms is shit) or Ruby on Rails. From here, it's just a matter of personal preference. ASP.NET MVC is basically C# on Rails. For smaller shit, probably Sinatra. [editline]08:49PM[/editline] However, the small selection I've mentioned is not the be all and end all. I [b]implore[/b] everyone who's interested to go and evaluate all the choices themselves.
[QUOTE=turb_;23957856] Example: [code] $me = functionThatReturnsAnArray()[0]; // syntax error $me = functionThatReturnsAnObject()->Hello; // works... [/code] [/QUOTE] They actually just added this in PHP 5.3.3. :dance:
[QUOTE=andersonmat;23960887]They actually just added this in PHP 5.3.3. :dance:[/QUOTE] Still too late. There's also so many other WTF's with PHP it's just better off using something else.
Can't disagree with you there _turb, IMO PHP needs a major cut. They should trim it all back, module-ize it etc. Then again, I may as well move to something else myself :P [editline]03:30PM[/editline] [QUOTE=andersonmat;23960887]They actually just added this in PHP 5.3.3. :dance:[/QUOTE] Really? BOUT FUCKING TIME PHP.
This is a good thread that has also answered alot of my questions on web design and development. Nice one. Also i think that to get fully into web design you need to at least know the basics in development
New question : I just started learning php, I know intermediate html and zero css. Am I fucked beyond repair ? Was it a mistake ? Should I pause learning php and start learning css ? Fuck I really don't know what I'm doing.
PHP is server-sided language and CSS is browser-sided (or client-sided?). CSS is meant only for design. PHP is the real programming, to make a site dynamic.
[QUOTE=Zarfa;23987107]New question : I just started learning php, I know intermediate html and zero css. Am I fucked beyond repair ? Was it a mistake ? Should I pause learning php and start learning css ? Fuck I really don't know what I'm doing.[/QUOTE] Depends on whether you want to outsource nearly everything or not.
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