What are you working on? November 2011 Edition - Developers

[QUOTE=amcfaggot;33491555]Okay, you're crazy. There problem solved. The restrictions were put in for a reason, not to baby people.[/QUOTE] It's not the OS's problem if applications are doing the wrong thing.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOE7peOf7pw[/media] My diggergames progress video, my voice got really deformed.

[QUOTE=Staneh;33491880][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOE7peOf7pw[/media] My diggergames progress video, my voice got really deformed.[/QUOTE] I have a hard time believing that you're Dutch, do you have a lot of British friends or something? You've picked up the accent really well. :v:

[QUOTE=Jookia;33491368]In that scenario I was obviously root. My point is that I can be a dumb fuck and screw shit up, but my system lets me because it does what it's told, which can come in useful in some cases.[/QUOTE] While we're on this topic, anyone else think the way Win7+UAC handles the "Program Files" folder is retarded? It keeps multiple copies of the files, allows users to modify their own copy which masks the system copy, then executes programs using the system copy, giving the user [i]absolutely no indication[/i] which one they're looking at or even that two separate copies of the same file exist. Which one you get depends entirely on the context from which you access it. I spent literally twelve hours trying to figure out WTF was going on. I was ready to bring in an exorcist. It's another convoluted, idiotic idea, just as I've come to expect from Microsoft. Not sure how one company can employ so many 'brilliant' programmers and make such brainless design choices. They should've gone the UNIX way and just disallowed write access to regular users. At least that would make some sense. You keep exactly one copy of the file, and you see exactly one copy of the file. Instead of having to ask yourself 'is this the real file I'm looking at, or is my OS trying to deceive me again?'

[QUOTE=ROBO_DONUT;33491988] It's another convoluted, idiotic idea, just as I've come to expect from Microsoft. Not sure how one company can employ so many 'brilliant' programmers and make such brainless design choices. [/QUOTE] Just wait until you see Win8. :v:

Java course just started at school. Apparently we're going to have a nice few days doing flowcharts and pseudocode first, which is good, seeing as most of the people appeared to not even know it was a programming course before getting told so. They prob'ly just saw AT3 and thought it'd be an easy way to get an extra course. (AT1 is basic introduction to computers, AT2 is whatever and AT4 is HTML)

[QUOTE=esalaka;33492280](AT1 is basic introduction to computers, AT2 is whatever and AT4 is HTML)[/QUOTE] That's kinda backwards.

[QUOTE=zerotwelve;33491985]I have a hard time believing that you're Dutch, do you have a lot of British friends or something? You've picked up the accent really well. :v:[/QUOTE] Well yeah, I don't know, I do have some English friends but I don't voicechat that much.

[QUOTE=ROBO_DONUT;33491988]While we're on this topic, anyone else think the way Win7+UAC handles the "Program Files" folder is retarded? It keeps multiple copies of the files, allows users to modify their own copy which masks the system copy, then executes programs using the system copy, giving the user [i]absolutely no indication[/i] which one they're looking at or even that two separate copies of the same file exist. Which one you get depends entirely on the context from which you access it. I spent literally twelve hours trying to figure out WTF was going on. I was ready to bring in an exorcist. It's another convoluted, idiotic idea, just as I've come to expect from Microsoft. Not sure how one company can employ so many 'brilliant' programmers and make such brainless design choices. They should've gone the UNIX way and just disallowed write access to regular users. At least that would make some sense. You keep exactly one copy of the file, and you see exactly one copy of the file. Instead of having to ask yourself 'is this the real file I'm looking at, or is my OS trying to deceive me again?'[/QUOTE] This happened to me once but with savefiles produced by a game that for some reason stored savegames in Program Files. Took me ages to find them in the VirtualStore folder. Has anyone here ever used D? It looks pretty cool from the website but I haven't actually tried it.

[QUOTE=calzoneman;33492714]This happened to me once but with savefiles produced by a game that for some reason stored savegames in Program Files. Took me ages to find them in the VirtualStore folder. Has anyone here ever used D? It looks pretty cool from the website but I haven't actually tried it.[/QUOTE] What's-his-face used to use D before he kinda snapped and got permabanned.

[QUOTE=ROBO_DONUT;33491988]While we're on this topic, anyone else think the way Win7+UAC handles the "Program Files" folder is retarded? It keeps multiple copies of the files, allows users to modify their own copy which masks the system copy, then executes programs using the system copy, giving the user [i]absolutely no indication[/i] which one they're looking at or even that two separate copies of the same file exist. Which one you get depends entirely on the context from which you access it. I spent literally twelve hours trying to figure out WTF was going on. I was ready to bring in an exorcist. It's another convoluted, idiotic idea, just as I've come to expect from Microsoft. Not sure how one company can employ so many 'brilliant' programmers and make such brainless design choices. They should've gone the UNIX way and just disallowed write access to regular users. At least that would make some sense. You keep exactly one copy of the file, and you see exactly one copy of the file. Instead of having to ask yourself 'is this the real file I'm looking at, or is my OS trying to deceive me again?'[/QUOTE] The reason it does that is for compatibility with old programs and games that would write directly to the Program Files folder (some still do, such as Steam or Origin, though it removes the admin write permissions on install, which is dumb. I'd prefer a symlink option at that point). The only reason they leave behavior like that in is simply because of the huge amounts of money microsoft gets paid by clients (Many are still upset they are dropping support for Windows XP and IE6). Working in a place where we have to tailor a specific feature (integration with Lotus Notes. Via COM and an undocumented API. Which I wrote. :/) to a single client (who is the only one who uses Lotus Notes) has shown me that the enterprisey commercial side of stuff is extremely harrowing, and frankly, money is what causes stuff to get done. (This doesn't mean I _like_ it, but it's what fuels the lack of behavior changes in many aspects) They technically do disallow write access to regular users. Hence why your changes don't show up in the system Program Files. It just fails silently for now. (This behavior will hopefully change in 8, but it will break quite a bit of stuff) Hell, this happens in the Linux world. Just look at Redhat. They still distribute python 2.4. Which was released in 2004. And they switched to it around the time that 2.6 came out.

[QUOTE=Chandler;33492885]The reason it does that is for compatibility with old programs and games that would write directly to the Program Files folder (some still do, such as Steam or Origin, though it removes the admin write permissions on install, which is dumb. I'd prefer a symlink option at that point). The only reason they leave behavior like that in is simply because of the huge amounts of money microsoft gets paid by clients (Many are still upset they are dropping support for Windows XP and IE6). Working in a place where we have to tailor a specific feature (integration with Lotus Notes. Via COM and an undocumented API. Which I wrote. :/) to a single client (who is the only one who uses Lotus Notes) has shown me that the enterprisey commercial side of stuff is extremely harrowing, and frankly, money is what causes stuff to get done. (This doesn't mean I _like_ it, but it's what fuels the lack of behavior changes in many aspects) They technically do disallow write access to regular users. Hence why your changes don't show up in the system Program Files. It just fails silently for now. (This behavior will hopefully change in 8, but it will break quite a bit of stuff) Hell, this happens in the Linux world. Just look at Redhat. They still distribute python 2.4. Which was released in 2004. And they switched to it around the time that 2.6 came out.[/QUOTE] Distributing an outdated piece of software isn't the same as doing what the hell Microsoft is doing with the Program Files folder.

I don't like putting my files in My Documents. It's far too... generic and blob-like and makes large-scale backup impossible. I'd much rather enjoy installing programs on my C:\ drive and storing data on D:\ - Unfortunately the registry makes installing programs on different drives ultimately useless, because you have to completely reinstall if you lose the main drive. I don't mind steam though because it's easy to install, lets you install to different drives and the content is easy to backup.

[QUOTE=Jookia;33492949]Distributing an outdated piece of software isn't the same as doing what the hell Microsoft is doing with the Program Files folder.[/QUOTE] Sounds like it to me though, just to different extremes. It basically comes down to an inability to move on and remove deprecated features in order to follow the demand of their highest paying/most vocal users.

[QUOTE=Chandler;33492885]They technically do disallow write access to regular users. Hence why your changes don't show up in the system Program Files. It just fails silently for now. (This behavior will hopefully change in 8, but it will break quite a bit of stuff)[/QUOTE] Except they don't disallow write access. I can modify a file from Program Files in Notepad, save, close, and load it back up, and it'll show all the modifications I made. That's far worse. It's beyond silent failure.

i'm behind on my schedule today i must implement adwhirl for android and make an icon

If I want to write my own router program on windows, how would I do that? Raw sockets wont work right?

[QUOTE=ROBO_DONUT;33493036]Except they don't disallow write access. I can modify a file from Program Files in Notepad, save, close, and load it back up, and it'll show all the modifications I made. That's far worse. It's beyond silent failure.[/QUOTE] Oh jeez. I didn't realize it was that bad. :/

[QUOTE=Lord Ned;33493020]I don't like putting my files in My Documents. It's far too... generic and blob-like and makes large-scale backup impossible. I'd much rather enjoy installing programs on my C:\ drive and storing data on D:\ - Unfortunately the registry makes installing programs on different drives ultimately useless, because you have to completely reinstall if you lose the main drive. I don't mind steam though because it's easy to install, lets you install to different drives and the content is easy to backup.[/QUOTE] I don't see how you can say you enjoy storing data on a separate partition from your programs, then write a program that stores user data where it is installed. I mean, seriously, what the fuck? "Too generic and blob-like"? You mean a widely used and accepted standard is generic? Well, I would hope so. Makes large-scale backup impossible? How? Move your My Documents folder to the other partition and it is a piece of cake. Here's a guide: Right-click your My Documents folder > Properties > Location > Move. Now, write your application to save data to the My Documents folder like almost every modern game company does these days.

[QUOTE=Jookia;33491584]It's not the OS's problem if applications are doing the wrong thing.[/QUOTE] It is the OS's problem if people are using raw sockets for malicious purposes. Would you rather delegate data validation through raw sockets for everything you're sending, or restrict the type of data you can send through them upfront? It's dumb to bring up that they're "babying" people without first asking, "what would be a better solution to this?"

[QUOTE=amcfaggot;33493387]It is the OS's problem if people are using raw sockets for malicious purposes.[/QUOTE] No it's not. The OS should do what the fuck it's told. It's an OS. On top of that, what is defined as malicious? Sending packets? [QUOTE=amcfaggot;33493387]Would you rather delegate data validation through raw sockets for everything you're sending, or restrict the type of data you can send through them upfront? It's dumb to bring up that they're "babying" people without first asking, "what would be a better solution to this?"[/QUOTE] I know what's [b]not[/b] a good solution, and locking developers out of low level features isn't.

[QUOTE=Jookia;33493435]No it's not. The OS should do what the fuck it's told. It's an OS. On top of that, what is defined as malicious? Sending packets?[/QUOTE] As much as I agree that that latter part sounds like 110% bullshit, there are some other asshats in the less technically-aware parts of Hardware and Software that are obsessed with security that have pointed out various exploits based on simple packet abuse. But an OS also shouldn't do whatever it's told in all scopes of access. Some notable raw socket exploits were pushed back around Windows XP. If you want to take a step backwards in development, okay. [editline]29th November 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Jookia;33493435]I know what's [b]not[/b] a good solution, and locking developers out of low level features isn't.[/QUOTE] If you're so concerned with sending TCP data, why don't you use a TCP socket.

Meanwhile, humble introversion bundle owners get the source code for darwinia, multiwinia, defcon and uplink for free! NERDGAAASMMM Funny, since I actually asked if the source code would be included in the support chat and he said that was for IV to decide

[QUOTE=amcfaggot;33493501]As much as I agree that that latter part sounds like 110% bullshit, there are some other asshats in the less technically-aware parts of Hardware and Software that are obsessed with security that have pointed out various exploits based on simple packet abuse. But an OS also shouldn't do whatever it's told in all scopes of access. Some notable raw socket exploits were pushed back around Windows XP. If you want to take a step backwards in development, okay. [editline]29th November 2011[/editline] If you're so concerned with sending TCP data, why don't you use a TCP socket.[/QUOTE] Perhaps he has to do some hacky shit to get some software/device/etc. to work or some such. Now he can't. Just an example ofc.

[QUOTE=Jawalt;33493627]Perhaps he has to do some hacky shit to get some software/device/etc. to work or some such. Now he can't. Just an example ofc.[/QUOTE] In that case it would sound like a poor approach to addressing a problem, and blaming the API on it. I'm assuming he's not writing kludges.

[QUOTE=Night-Eagle;33493359]I don't see how you can say you enjoy storing data on a separate partition from your programs, then write a program that stores user data where it is installed. I mean, seriously, what the fuck?[/quote] When I think of "Program", I think of Photoshop, 3ds Max, etc. When I think of Steam, it's a program, but it's also games, development tool, etc. The content doesn't work without Steam (unlike PSD'S or OBJ's or anything that can be opened by multiple programs). Because of this, it feels different to me. [quote]"Too generic and blob-like"? You mean a widely used and accepted standard is generic? Well, I would hope so. Makes large-scale backup impossible? How? Move your My Documents folder to the other partition and it is a piece of cake. Here's a guide: Right-click your My Documents folder > Properties > Location > Move. [/quote] The thing I don't like is that since EVERYTHING stores data there, it's sometimes hard to pick through crap you want to back up. I don't want to bring along a lot of config files from programs I won't reinstall, etc. [quote]Now, write your application to save data to the My Documents folder like almost every modern game company does these days.[/QUOTE] I'll just make everything stored on le cloud. That's the trendy thing to do right? :v: (I kid, I kid)

[QUOTE=uitham;33493578]Meanwhile, humble introversion bundle owners get the source code for darwinia, multiwinia, defcon and uplink for free! NERDGAAASMMM Funny, since I actually asked if the source code would be included in the support chat and he said that was for IV to decide[/QUOTE] LINKLINKLINKLINKLINK Oh god, just found it. My day is going to be filled.

I didn't want to open the mail at first because the title only contained dungeons of dredmor Basically, they tell me about the source code as if it is nothing [quote]But that’s not all! Humble Introversion Bundle customers now have access to the source code for Darwinia, Multiwinia, DEFCON, and Uplink! Once you've purchased the bundle, check your download page for a source snapshot and gain access to Introversion's developer forums, wiki, and SVN repository.[/quote] "OH, AND WE GAVE YOU THE SOURCE CODE" Anyways their server is getting overloaded now, not giving me the chance to download it such a shame

[QUOTE=Lord Ned;33493769]The thing I don't like is that since EVERYTHING stores data there, it's sometimes hard to pick through crap you want to back up. I don't want to bring along a lot of config files from programs I won't reinstall, etc. I'll just make everything stored on le cloud. That's the trendy thing to do right? :v: (I kid, I kid)[/QUOTE] I will agree with you that Windows, at times, feels like it has too many save-storage areas. We have some applications that store their program files in Program Files, but also save there. Some applications save their settings in the registry and not flat files. Then, we have the AppData folder for per-user storage in a number of different mannerisms. It's unorganized, unappealing, and confusing at times for not only users to determine where to access their settings and stored goods (and even if they should be doing this, or it should be left to "advanced users") but also for developers to determine where they should be saving information (if they even care to abide by convention). Should all program settings be in the registry? What if it's an app that you want to store on a USB drive? Shouldn't all games be saved in a sort of My Games folder so players can access their saved games and delete which saves they no longer want? What if your saves aren't flat files of any sort? When is it appropriate for me to use AppData and store information there? Why can't I just use Program Files? These questions go on and on, and while we probably don't think about these things constantly, nor is it a big issue - it could be a problem for that developer or that user at the time of incident.

[QUOTE=uitham;33493883]I didn't want to open the mail at first because the title only contained dungeons of dredmor Basically, they tell me about the source code as if it is nothing "OH, AND WE GAVE YOU THE SOURCE CODE"[/QUOTE] that's because the vast majority of people buying the bundle couldn't care less.