What are you working on? v6 - Developers

Briefly skimming (you know cause I should be studying with ridiculously important exams in a bit more than a month) just want to say that scripts stop the page loading until the browser's downloaded them (I think only Opera ignores this, or maybe Opera Turbo). There shouldn't be any flashing issues if your script takes effect before the content loads (placed in <head> etc).

[QUOTE=a2h;32194827]Briefly skimming (you know cause I should be studying with ridiculously important exams in a bit more than a month) just want to say that scripts stop the page loading until the browser's downloaded them (I think only Opera ignores this, or maybe Opera Turbo). There shouldn't be any flashing issues if your script takes effect before the content loads (placed in <head> etc).[/QUOTE]Oh!

Just either use [url=http://headjs.com/]HeadJS[/url] (loads all of the Javascript simultaneously, while normally they are loaded one by one) or place the script links right before the closing HTML tag ( or body, I can't remember.) [editline]jfihgio[/editline] [url]http://summerglaufc.org/[/url] Planning on adding a message against JS disablers.

[QUOTE=StinkyJoe;32194513]Every single week, the same story: If your website doesn't degrade gracefully without Javascript, you're doing things [b]all[/b] wrong. I can't even imagine how, given the way Javascript is layered on top of the static DOM, some of you manage to have trouble with this.[/QUOTE] Chill the fuck out, I've been working on that layout for about 4-5 hours total. Making it non-JS compatible is as simple as switching out some of the CSS values with their non-offset/non-transparent counterparts (about 5 or 6 CSS declarations in a noscript)

[QUOTE][img]http://dl.dropbox.com/u/15894462/ZScreen/2011-09/Screenshot-2011-09-09_13.36.48.png[/img][/QUOTE] C&C on this site I'm making for a small company me and two friends are making as a final project during our final school year.

[QUOTE=JWJ;32195036]Chill the fuck out, I've been working on that layout for about 4-5 hours total. Making it non-JS compatible is as simple as switching out some of the CSS values with their non-offset/non-transparent counterparts (about 5 or 6 CSS declarations in a noscript)[/QUOTE] Making it non-JS compatible should be the default behavior, with none or very little work required, unless you're pulling some very wild and absolutely wrong shit. Like I said, it's not rocket science, buddy. PS: No point getting all defensive, I'm not out to get you, simply pointing out a mistake.

In my case, the entire focus of my website is 'how can I use jQuery to make this website awesome'. The way my animation and fading works is by having everything in the initial hidden/offset state in CSS and then the jQuery moves it all into place. Anywho, it's now compatible with non-JS browsers. That being said, billing and the control panel itself still aren't and probably never will be.

Who has Javascript disabled?

[QUOTE=Jelly;32195394]Who has Javascript disabled?[/QUOTE]Readers for blind people, for example. And as StinkyJoe said, you still have to account for those even though they're usually in the vast minority. Accessibility is key.

I mean, besides NoScript users. But even then people who use NoScript and have auto deny on everything usually know what they're getting themselves into. [editline]9th September 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=TerabyteS_;32195456]Readers for blind people, for example. And as StinkyJoe said, you still have to account for those even though they're usually in the vast minority. Accessibility is key.[/QUOTE] Why would blind people be interested in gaming servers? I'm not that familiar with screen readers but wouldn't it just read text from Firefox/IE?

[QUOTE=Jelly;32195394]Who has Javascript disabled?[/QUOTE] Its somewhat of a minority, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't allow your website to be none-JS compatible, atleast in the cases were it takes very little work to achieve none-JS compatability.

<noscript> :eng101:

[QUOTE=Jelly;32195461]I mean, besides NoScript users. But even then people who use NoScript and have auto deny on everything usually know what they're getting themselves into. Why would blind people be interested in gaming servers? I'm not that familiar with screen readers but wouldn't it just read text from Firefox/IE?[/QUOTE] Yeah, fuck those blind kids (or even just partially impaired), or those with other problems that force them to use non-standard software with sub-par functionality - they'll have to walk over my cold dead web developer body before I give them the right to enjoy gaming like [i]normal[/i] people. Next thing you know they'll want to vote. Instead of making assumptions, some proper research might be in place? I've made some posts about this in the Big Fat Thread of Knowledge before, not like anyone actually reads that thing!

[QUOTE=StinkyJoe;32195920]Yeah, fuck those blind kids (or even just partially impaired), or those with other problems that force them to use non-standard software with sub-par functionality - they'll have to walk over my cold dead web developer body before I give them the right to enjoy gaming like [i]normal[/i] people. Next thing you know they'll want to vote. Instead of making assumptions, some proper research might be in place? I've made some posts about this in the Big Fat Thread of Knowledge before, not like anyone actually reads that thing![/QUOTE] How the can you play games if you're blind? Because last time I checked video games were pretty visual intensive. You're blowing things out of proportion, I never said "fuck those blind kids" nor will I. [editline]9th September 2011[/editline] I never recalled you saying anything about this in the Big Fat Thread of Knowledge, so I checked again. You haven't.

[QUOTE=Jelly;32195971]How the can you play games if you're blind? Because last time I checked video games were pretty visual intensive. You're blowing things out of proportion, I never said "fuck those blind kids" nor will I. [editline]9th September 2011[/editline] I never recalled you saying anything about this in the Big Fat Thread of Knowledge, so I checked again. You haven't.[/QUOTE]You don't have to care about [I]WHY[/I] or [I]WHO[/I]. You just have to provide the most accessibility you can.

[QUOTE=TerabyteS_;32196072]You don't have to care about [I]WHY[/I] or [I]WHO[/I]. You just have to provide the most accessibility you can.[/QUOTE] Actually you do, you have to worry about who the website is targeted at. If you're targeting a website at everyone, you'll have a very hard time making everybody happy.

[QUOTE=Jelly;32195971]How the can you play games if you're blind? Because last time I checked video games were pretty visual intensive. You're blowing things out of proportion, I never said "fuck those blind kids" nor will I.[/QUOTE] You fail to realize there are different levels of blindness. Take the game minecraft for instance, if you play on the mcpublic servers you'll no doubt come across atleast two visually impaired regulars. On the tf2 server I regularly play, there's one deaf player, and one visually impaired player. Just because these people aren't the norm, and usually keep to themselves, doesn't mean they don't exist. If you don't want to take this seriously, by all means feel free to tell me to get stuffed and keep on keeping on, but I've said this to Terabytes_ and to others more than once - a web developer works for the user, and it's [B]your[/B] responsibility to take all these variables into consideration during development. I can understand not going the long haul with specific features and special care on a website where the user-base doesn't call for it, but come on, graceful degradation? On an [B]informative[/B] website? Are we going backwards or something here? This is beginner-level bullshit, yet every other week there's some smart-ass thumping his chest, filled with pride for his absolutely hilarious <noscript> insult to users with javascript disabled - yeah, you pull that shit with me or any decent employer and you might as well take up gardening. Here, I'll go over this again: 1. There are blind users, there are users who classify as blind but still have some amount of visibility, but require special care. 2. There are users stuck with shitty work policies that still need to get something done, or would just really like to visit your website. 3. There are tools and standards that help you as a developer cater to these users without too much fuss (if any at all). 4. Graceful degradation, specially on a barely-interactive website like this is [B]basic[/B] stuff, and if you can't work it out without breaking a sweat, you might want to go back to tizag or htmldog, or maybe, you know, read a book. 5. You aren't special or witty or funny because you have a clever message inside <noscript> tags, you're just a clueless developer who has no business working in an area where he dictates user interaction. None of the above matters if you're just making a super l33t page for your cs 1.6 clan, but I'm under the impression that at least some of the people on this forum are here to learn - so go right ahead and ignore me, others might find this information useful. [editline]9th September 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Jelly;32195971] I never recalled you saying anything about this in the Big Fat Thread of Knowledge, so I checked again. You haven't.[/QUOTE] Yes, I have - page 2: [url=https://developer.mozilla.org/en/Sections_and_Outlines_of_an_HTML5_document]Section and Outlines of an HTML5 Document[/url] [url=http://www.sitepoint.com/real-world-accessibility-html5-aria-and-the-modern-web/]Real World Accessibility - HTML5, ARIA and the Modern Web[/url] [url=http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/]W3C - Accessible Rich Internet Applications[/url] Again, not rocket science, people.

[QUOTE=StinkyJoe;32196162]stuff[/QUOTE] AngryJoe

[QUOTE=TerabyteS_;32196381]AngryJoe[/QUOTE] I pooped a bit typing that out.

Didn't mean to insult you, I learnt the lesson you gave me when I did that on qfi.im

[QUOTE=Jelly;32195712]<noscript>turn on javascript, you twat</noscript>[/QUOTE] You do realize that not all devices run javascript in the browser, right?

[QUOTE=StinkyJoe;32196162]You fail to realize there are different levels of blindness. Take the game minecraft for instance, if you play on the mcpublic servers you'll no doubt come across atleast two visually impaired regulars. On the tf2 server I regularly play, there's one deaf player, and one visually impaired player. Just because these people aren't the norm, and usually keep to themselves, doesn't mean they don't exist. If you don't want to take this seriously, by all means feel free to tell me to get stuffed and keep on keeping on, but I've said this to Terabytes_ and to others more than once - a web developer works for the user, and it's [B]your[/B] responsibility to take all these variables into consideration during development. I can understand not going the long haul with specific features and special care on a website where the user-base doesn't call for it, but come on, graceful degradation? On an [B]informative[/B] website? Are we going backwards or something here? This is beginner-level bullshit, yet every other week there's some smart-ass thumping his chest, filled with pride for his absolutely hilarious <noscript> insult to users with javascript disabled - yeah, you pull that shit with me or any decent employer and you might as well take up gardening. Here, I'll go over this again: 1. There are blind users, there are users who classify as blind but still have some amount of visibility, but require special care. 2. There are users stuck with shitty work policies that still need to get something done, or would just really like to visit your website. 3. There are tools and standards that help you as a developer cater to these users without too much fuss (if any at all). 4. Graceful degradation, specially on a barely-interactive website like this is [B]basic[/B] stuff, and if you can't work it out without breaking a sweat, you might want to go back to tizag or htmldog, or maybe, you know, read a book. 5. You aren't special or witty or funny because you have a clever message inside <noscript> tags, you're just a clueless developer who has no business working in an area where he dictates user interaction. None of the above matters if you're just making a super l33t page for your cs 1.6 clan, but I'm under the impression that at least some of the people on this forum are here to learn - so go right ahead and ignore me, others might find this information useful. [editline]9th September 2011[/editline] Yes, I have - page 2: [url=https://developer.mozilla.org/en/Sections_and_Outlines_of_an_HTML5_document]Section and Outlines of an HTML5 Document[/url] [url=http://www.sitepoint.com/real-world-accessibility-html5-aria-and-the-modern-web/]Real World Accessibility - HTML5, ARIA and the Modern Web[/url] [url=http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/]W3C - Accessible Rich Internet Applications[/url] Again, not rocket science, people.[/QUOTE] I've always looked at accessibility as I have about browser compatibility, if the browser share is low enough I usually don't spend that much time trying to make the site work and look the same as it does in all other browsers. Doesn't mean I don't do nothing at all, it's just minimal. Apparently I've been looking at it all wrong, so I suppose I'll have to change the way I do UX.

[QUOTE=TerabyteS_;32196402]Didn't mean to insult you, I learnt the lesson you gave me when I did that on qfi.im[/QUOTE] Oh, you didn't insult me at all TerabyteS, sorry if I my answer gave you that impression. And for what it's worth, I think you're one of the guys making the most progress on this forum, and I'm always genuinely interested in seeing your projects and how you tackle them.

[QUOTE=T3hGamerDK;32196422]You do realize that not all devices run javascript in the browser, right?[/QUOTE] I was joking.

[QUOTE=StinkyJoe;32196462]Oh, you didn't insult me at all TerabyteS, sorry if I my answer gave you that impression. And for what it's worth, I think you're one of the guys making the most progress on this forum, and I'm always genuinely interested in seeing your projects and how you tackle them.[/QUOTE]Thank you :dance:

[QUOTE=pdkm931;32195061]C&C on this site I'm making for a small company me and two friends are making as a final project during our final school year.[/QUOTE] So no thoughts about the design how I can make it better?

[QUOTE=pdkm931;32196527]So no thoughts about the design how I can make it better?[/QUOTE]I would say the content is far too wide for what's needed. If possible, you should try and make it narrower, that should improve readability a bunch. Then I'd say try to align the links at the top vertically with the logo.

[QUOTE=pdkm931;32196527]So no thoughts about the design how I can make it better?[/QUOTE] You haven't really got much there, but unless you're going to add something to the footer. Even if you were it shouldn't be that big, so try making it alot smaller.

[QUOTE=StinkyJoe;32195920]Yeah, fuck those blind kids (or even just partially impaired), or those with other problems that force them to use non-standard software with sub-par functionality - they'll have to walk over my cold dead web developer body before I give them the right to enjoy gaming like [i]normal[/i] people. Next thing you know they'll want to vote. Instead of making assumptions, some proper research might be in place? I've made some posts about this in the Big Fat Thread of Knowledge before, not like anyone actually reads that thing![/QUOTE] It is all to do with purpose. My wordpress plugins used to support no javascript. The latest build of wordpress no longer supports it so I don't need to (although it does at the moment). Likewise they don't work with ie6 because wordpress doesn't work with ie6. Informative websites (not web-apps) should definitely have a no-javascript alternative (not saying that webapps shouldn't just that there is more scope for debate) if for no other purpose than for SEO - search engines don't execute javascript when they index pages so an element that is display:hidden; may not be indexed properly. An interesting example of accessibility is [url]http://lesscss.org/[/url] . The website is for web developers and therefore doesn't support any but the latest browsers (literally doesn't work in other browsers). If a web developer is using IE6 as their primary browser then god help them. A handicapped person who is using a browser with no javascript support would expect to be able to get information on the service but not perhaps be able to login and use the game admin panel. It is reasonable to require JavaScript for that.