How Much Should Hosting Cost? - Developers

My family is currently building a project with a contractor. He gave us his statement of work recently and I've only just got to take a look at it and by first looks, I am appalled. Maybe some of you guys can help me shed light here. Under the hosting cost and information is the following for $300/month: -Dell PowerEdge 850 (4G ECC DDR2, 16MB Video Memory, 2.80GHz Intel Premium 4 [I assume this is a Pentium 4 or Pentium D proc.]) -Netscreen 5GT -2MB Bandwidth (this is the guaranteed upload rate to clients) -w/ hosting partner proxy communications corp. Now, to me this seems absolutely ridiculous. For a few months "rent", you could probably get a brand new PE850 AND Netscreen 5GT and go with a hosting provider who provides unlimited bandwidth and everything for $30-$50/month. Hell, I don't even know who the hell Proxy Communications Corp. is. I can't even find their website (and if I did, then my god is it ever awful). Now, my dad is telling me that most of the cost comes from maintenance, cost of storage, heating, cooling, security, etc. Well, I would think that the maintenance should come included with the unit and how much is it really to run a 375 watt server 24/7? I've seen some pretty top-of-the-line dedicated server hosting go for this much. I need some insight here.

[URL]http://www.facepunch.com/threads/1092820-What-webhost-do-you-guys-recommend[/URL] [URL]http://www.facepunch.com/threads/1110268-Good-Cheap-VPS[/URL] [URL]http://www.facepunch.com/threads/1082715-Reliable-hosting-needed[/URL] These 3 threads can probably give you some more insight on the usual pricing. 300$ is almost certainly too much - you can get a sandy bridge dedicated box from Linode for less than that. If you can give us some more details on the actual project (no need to get into specifics), we might be able to help you figure out the best hosting infrastructure and plan for you.

Of course. Here's a re-drawing of the diagram in the statement of work: DEPLOYMENT VIEW: [img]http://i.imgur.com/wo3gC.png[/img] I've also found out from my dad they are going to be running "something Tomcat" on it. I'm assuming he means Apache Tomcat. I'm trying to think what could possibly justify the price. Is it the amount of monitoring done to the server? The firewalls/software being used? The fact that the function of the website is stored as an application within the server rather than functionality via HTML or Java[script] in the source code?

[QUOTE=Armyis1337;31300939]Of course. Here's a re-drawing of the diagram in the statement of work: DEPLOYMENT VIEW: [img]http://i.imgur.com/wo3gC.png[/img] I've also found out from my dad they are going to be running "something Tomcat" on it. I'm assuming he means Apache Tomcat.[/QUOTE] What sort of service is it (once again, no need to be too specific), and what is the expected user base going to be (in terms of size)?

[QUOTE=StinkyJoe;31300974]What sort of service is it (once again, no need to be too specific), and what is the expected user base going to be (in terms of size)?[/QUOTE] It's essentially an automated strategic consultant for dental offices. (ie. rather than having an accountant come do your taxes, you can get TurboTax or UFile) I expect only a handful (10-25 clients at the most) in the beginning stages. [Hopefully it takes off much faster though!]

"application server"

[QUOTE=tagnara;31301057]"application server"[/QUOTE] :v: [QUOTE=Armyis1337;31301056]It's essentially an automated strategic consultant for dental offices. (ie. rather than having an accountant come do your taxes, you can get TurboTax or UFile) I expect only a handful (10-25 clients at the most) in the beginning stages. [Hopefully it takes off much faster though!][/QUOTE] That contractor's trying to play you. Like our friend tagnara pointed out, that diagram is ridiculous. 300$ for THAT server is even more ridiculous, do not accept it. You could probably get it going with a 25$ VPS (even cheaper if you wanted). Even with a dedicated box, like I said, you would be able to afford a sandy bridge (read: fucking fast) server from Linode for those 300$, not a P4. Contractors trying to squeeze extra cash out of unsuspecting clients isn't new - talk to your parents about this. Also, FYI, from the little info you've provided I'm 99% certain you're going to end up with some ugly mess of a system written somewhere in Mumbai.

[QUOTE=StinkyJoe;31301167]:v: That contractor's trying to play you. Like our friend tagnara pointed out, that diagram is ridiculous. 300$ for THAT server is even more ridiculous, do not accept it. You could probably get it going with a 25$ VPS. Even with a dedicated box, like I said, you would be able to afford a sandy bridge (read: fucking fast) server from Linode for those 300$, not a shitty P4.[/QUOTE] Ugh...I know we're getting a decent deal on the application development and the website development, but I knew the hosting seemed extremely expensive. Can you explain to me please why the diagram is ridiculous so I have points of backup when I'm speaking with my parents and the contractor (whom I will also ask why he was charging $300/month in the first place). I know what I'm talking about, but I'm not learned in the field. Also, it's funny, because the contractor is somebody who works with one of my mom's clients. As well, we've met the programmer who is going to be coding everything.

[QUOTE=Armyis1337;31301252]Ugh...I know we're getting a decent deal on the application development and the website development, but I knew the hosting seemed extremely expensive. Can you explain to me please why the diagram is ridiculous so I have points of backup when I'm speaking with my parents and the contractor (whom I will also ask why he was charging $300/month in the first place).[/QUOTE] I've updated the post you quoted. It's not very easy to point out exactly what's wrong - by the way, it's now 6AM so pardon any incoherence on my part - but assuming you've re-drawn it word-by-word, the whole thing just seems like it was made by someone with a poor understanding of how something like this works. I really wish I could give you something more consistent.

[QUOTE=StinkyJoe;31301329]I've updated the post you quoted. It's not very easy to point out exactly what's wrong - by the way, it's now 6AM so pardon any incoherence on my part - but assuming you've re-drawn it word-by-word, the whole thing just seems like it was made by someone with a poor understanding of how something like this works. I really wish I could give you something more consistent.[/QUOTE] Hey, so far you are the only person to help! :buddy: However, I am feeling very conflicted, as it's not some random person we found at a company. He was referred to us by a lawyer that my mom works with. As well, it does seem he knows what he's doing given that he's done much work in the past, however I'm not sure if he's trying to over exaggerate his skill/prowess with extremely technical lexicon. I, as well, don't necessarily understand the diagram, but I'm almost certain that the setup is not worth the price. I will need to talk with the contractor for a better understanding. (I mean, hell, the Netscreen 5GT is supposedly deprecated. Why are we using outdated technology in the first place and secondly, where are we supposed to get support for the peripheral if the manufacture doesn't even product it anymore?)

Just tell him you think the hosting is too expensive and you'd like some clarification.

$300/m for 16mbit? You've got to be crazy... [editline]24th July 2011[/editline] You can get 1gbit and better hardware for much much less.

[QUOTE=Armyis1337;31298841]how much is it really to run a 375 watt server 24/7?[/QUOTE] 3x the cost of a standard 1u

In my opinion he is overcharging you. That server doesn't even cost that much to buy. They sell pretty cheap on ebay. And if your website is small (not alot of traffic) you shouldn't need a dedicated server.

[QUOTE=SL1CHAOS;31375697]In my opinion he is overcharging you. That server doesn't even cost that much to buy. They sell pretty cheap on ebay. And if your website is small (not alot of traffic) you shouldn't need a dedicated server.[/QUOTE] Of course, we want it to be fast and scalable. I recently just got back from a trip to Buffalo, so I should be able to speak with him shortly and give everyone here the summary.

[QUOTE=FlapadarV2;31308045]$300/m for 16mbit? You've got to be crazy... [editline]24th July 2011[/editline] [b]You can get 1gbit and better hardware for much much less.[/b][/QUOTE] I am curious where you can find a deal like this. I'm assuming it's going to be somewhere in Europe, but I am situated in Canada.

There are hundreds of host out there. I would recommend investing in a dedicated server yourself, even if it's a used one off ebay if money is an issue (doesn't seem like it considering the price he is charging you) then get it colocated here: [url]http://www.peer1hosting.co.uk/our-hosting/colocation/colocation[/url] They have colocation in canada

So I got my answer today finally. It appears much of the cost comes from the redundant firewalls (4 netscreen's in case of downtime) and switches they use, the fact that the server is fully managed and the bandwidth and cost of power. I got extra clarification on the "2 MB" bandwidth as well. It doesn't actually mean the entire line transmits 16Mbit, it is that no matter how many users are on the site, every single one of them will receive a guaranteed 2MB/s connection. I think these maybe justify the cost of $300/month, even though the server itself is not that great. He also said we would upgrade once we have enough clients however and just colocate and pay only the bandwidth and power costs.

Hardware firewalls are pointless UNTIL you need them. Depending on how large the "attack" is at the time they can range from $50/month upwards(looking at SoftLayer so probably a bit less). Just go with somebody else for dedicated hosting otherwise you will just be getting ripped off big time.

Here's a thought for you: 1 x Server 4 x Redundant Firewalls Guess where the weak point is ? If one device randomly goes down, there's a 1/5 chance that it will be your one and only server which would take down your entire service. Now forgive me for coming to this conclusion without knowing more details, but anybody who is wanting to provide a 4 redundant firewalls to support a single non-redundant server is either a tool or someone trying to rip you off. The server he is offering you is also ridiculous. I'd suggest you just rent a dedicated server from a datacenter.

[QUOTE=yngndrw;31654053]Guess where the weak point is ? If one device randomly goes down, there's a 1/5 chance that it will be your one and only server which would take down your entire service. Now forgive me for coming to this conclusion without knowing more details, but anybody who is wanting to provide a 4 redundant firewalls to support a single non-redundant server is either a tool or someone trying to rip you off. The server he is offering you is also ridiculous.[/QUOTE] well obviously having 4 redundant firewalls and 1 server means that the 1 server only has a 20% chance of going down. if he had less firewalls, the server would have a greater chance of going down. if he had no firewalls, then there would be a 100% chance of the server going down. quite plainly the best solution is to get more redundant firewalls to reduce the chance of the server going down. if he had 9 redundant firewalls, then there would only be a 10% chance of the server going down!

Unless you are being sarcalstic, tanraga, you both have flawed logic. You're comparing probability X to Y. It doesn't matter how many redundant firewalls there are if the server operates independent of them (unless you are factoring in attacks on the site, which I doubt). Yes, I know the server is absolutely insane, but if you read the update post, you'll see where the majority of the cost comes from (bandwidth).

[QUOTE=Armyis1337;31659308]Unless you are being sarcalstic, tanraga, you both have flawed logic. You're comparing probability X to Y. It doesn't matter how many redundant firewalls there are if the server operates independent of them (unless you are factoring in attacks on the site, which I doubt). Yes, I know the server is absolutely insane, but if you read the update post, you'll see where the majority of the cost comes from (bandwidth).[/QUOTE] Bandwidth isn't expensive.

[QUOTE=Sc00by22;31659946]Bandwidth isn't expensive.[/QUOTE] "It is" in Canada. As well though, the server is fully managed.

[QUOTE=Armyis1337;31660026]"It is" in Canada. As well though, the server is fully managed.[/QUOTE] Nobody needs a fully managed server unless you're being attacked. [editline]11th August 2011[/editline] You should go with US hosting instead of canadian.

[QUOTE=Coon;31665470]Nobody needs a fully managed server unless you're being attacked.[/QUOTE] Very few people here most likely, but there are people who run large websites and don't have a clue how to manage a server.

I've learned today that quite a bit of the application will be developed on Adobe Flex (as opposed to something like jQuery or AJAX). I don't know how I feel about this.

[QUOTE=Darkimmortal;31698507]Very few people here most likely, but there are people who run large websites and don't have a clue how to manage a server.[/QUOTE] If they're running large websites, they should learn, it's cheaper in the long run, and it's actually pretty easy after a bit of messing around.

[QUOTE=Armyis1337;31712734]I've learned today that quite a bit of the application will be developed on Adobe Flex (as opposed to something like jQuery or AJAX). I don't know how I feel about this.[/QUOTE] It sounds like you have not chosen the right company/team for the job. Since you are starting off you should stay away from flash based solutions and go with more widely compatible out of the box solutions that use Javascript. The fact that the people you are talking with are using outdated technology is a big red flag. No new production system should be using a Pentium 4 as they reached end of life I believe back in 2007. Any company knowingly using EOL software and hardware way past their EOL is knowingly accepting future problems and additional headaches for clients. I would recommend you have a sit down with your dad and explain to him that you are being ripped off and malnourished by these contractors. Anyone that keeps up with technology which is the job of anyone in IT providing services knows that what they are doing is a big no-go. If you do continue to work with them make sure they are using modern supported hardware and have them give you a manufacturer breakdown of the hardware specs and their warranties. Also make sure you receive a breakdown of all the real hosting and development costs in black and white. You will also need to know what the real bandwidth and throughput you will be receiving on the server is along with if it is dedicated bandwidth or shared. For the application development ask them which version of Flex they are using along with the other software/programming language versions and post back here as I have a feeling they are also using outdated no longer supported/updated software too. If they are using a more modern version then you might have more options available to you in what they can offer so it works on most popular platforms. To be honest I would not use this company due the red flags listed above as it is a future sign of failure when new clients are provisioned with EOL hardware and the base of the applications being developed is not using something widely compatible.

[url]https://www.welltodocentury.com/whmcs/cart.php?gid=1[/url] You should go with the Core2Quad Q9300 Quad Core. I chose that location because it's nearer to Canada. It's slightly more expensive than Fremont. It's 1/3rd the price that shit company quoted you, at least twice as good specs, and the support there are awesome. If you want to be nice, you can use my referrer link (If you go with this recommendation anyway) [url]http://www.welltodocentury.com/whmcs/aff.php?aff=004[/url] Here's a rundown on the spec difference P4 @ 2.8 Ghz / Core2Quad (4 cores) @ 2.5Ghz. 2mbit unmetered / 100mbit 5TB 2GB DDR2 / 8 GB DDR2 And it's 1/3 the price.