the winforms auto-generated code is already exceptionally clean. The time and effort required to write code as clean as, or even more clean than the winforms code is just not worth it. You can spend forever re-inventing the wheel, but then you'll never use the wheel to make a car. If you use the existing wheel, you can focus on the important parts of the car, like the engine.
A car with marginally better wheels and a shitty engine isn't as good as a car with standard wheels and a better engine. The people who don't know much about cars (which is the majority of people buying cars) won't be able to tell the difference between your wheels and the regular ones, but they will notice that the really nice engine in the other car provides an overall better driving experience for them, and they will always choose that car over yours.
Of course if you like rewriting different systems and trying to make things as optimized as possible, I would suggest contributing to some open source projects.
The ease of use for a development platform is relative to the quality of the content that is put out. For example, a game made with UDK will, in most cases, be better quality than one made with Game Maker or RPG Maker because the latter two are so easy to use, it's almost ridiculous. I guess as more complicated development platforms take more time to learn, then the person using them is more dedicated to their project than a 10 year old using RPG Maker to make a fly-by-night video game with about ten minutes of gameplay.
Hope this made sense. If it didn't, then hopefully you're getting roughly where I'm coming from.
[QUOTE=robmaister12;31040673]That's Winforms, and it's available for all .NET languages. While there's a really nice editor for it that may initially seem simplistic, the winforms system is really in-depth and allows for control over just about every imaginable aspect of each control.[/QUOTE]
I have to disagree. When you start wanting to customize controls you will find out how limited you really are. I don't know why but the .net team loves making useful shit internal. Also the controls were made back in .net 1.1 and really haven't been upgraded so shit is very messy. They are lacking some OOness which makes extending them a bitch. You essentially have to rewrite controls from scratch if you want to customize them.
Next year I'm taking an Intro to Programming course and it encompasses BASIC and VB. I've never done any coding short of making stupid little AppleScript dialog box trivia games for my friends in the library, so I'm very interested to see if I can relate to any of the problems you guys have with it (which probably won't happen considering many of the problems you're indicating are compared to C++ or C#)
I'm going to try not to defend VB in a way that'll piss you guys off or call out my ignorance, but VB is a great language for what it does ( notice how it was Basic in its name ). It's a great programming language to get started in, as C based languages are often too much for someone new at programming to handle. The drag and drop functionality incorporated into VB ( and all the Microsoft .NET editors ) really help somebody get into programming without having to worry about all the design stuff that goes into it and the easy to understand syntax practically put it at the top of the list of languages to start off in ( not saying it's the best, that's up to the end user to decide, but I'm saying it's definitely not a bad language to start off in ). As for the 'teaching bad habits', it really doesn't. After a reasonable amount of time spent programming in VB, a user can easily switch to a C syntax in less than a week and be used to it, simply because it's not that different. ( Okay, For statements are different, that's about it ).
I am saying this out of experience, by the way. VB was my first language.
[QUOTE=high;31047084]I have to disagree. When you start wanting to customize controls you will find out how limited you really are. I don't know why but the .net team loves making useful shit internal. Also the controls were made back in .net 1.1 and really haven't been upgraded so shit is very messy. They are lacking some OOness which makes extending them a bitch. You essentially have to rewrite controls from scratch if you want to customize them.[/QUOTE]
I haven't ever found the need to make custom controls, but I can definitely see that being a pretty big pitfall. The most I've had to use winforms for are small utilities and a level editor, where you can make due with the default controls and still have a really nice program. And winforms gives you a LOT of controls.
[QUOTE=robmaister12;31061102]I haven't ever found the need to make custom controls, but I can definitely see that being a pretty big pitfall. The most I've had to use winforms for are small utilities and a level editor, where you can make due with the default controls and still have a really nice program. And winforms gives you a LOT of controls.[/QUOTE]
What would have been really nice is if they made a set of the controls that are pure .net. The mix between .net and windows api makes the controls really ugly to change at all. I wanted to change the way text renders in a textbox but you can't do that without making the control from scratch.
It depends what you're looking for in the end. If you're not planning on taking up programming as a career, VB is perfectly fine if you can deal with not having the ability to create intense graphical programs (and the lack of symbols)
I'd still recommend C# if the above is true because it still allows for rapid development and in my opinion is cleaner
If you were planning to take programming up as a career then perhaps look into C++. It's a good idea to know a little about what C# does for you that you don't know about
Bottom line is: Don't waste your time learning another language just because it's more highly regarded. If it gets the job that you want done in the end and you're not really looking to take programming any further than a hobby, then there is no point struggling with a lower level language
[QUOTE=Trumple;31170881]It depends what you're looking for in the end. If you're not planning on taking up programming as a career, VB is perfectly fine if you can deal with not having the ability to create intense graphical programs (and the lack of symbols)
I'd still recommend C# if the above is true because it still allows for rapid development and in my opinion is cleaner
If you were planning to take programming up as a career then perhaps look into C++. It's a good idea to know a little about what C# does for you that you don't know about
Bottom line is: Don't waste your time learning another language just because it's more highly regarded. If it gets the job that you want done in the end and you're not really looking to take programming any further than a hobby, then there is no point struggling with a lower level language[/QUOTE]
There are many places that will hire you to make stuff for them in VB.NET. A local business hired me to make a sale-tracking program for them in VB.NET a couple months ago. I asked if I could use C# but they wanted to be able to use/change the source code.
[QUOTE=Quark:;31175412]There are many places that will hire you to make stuff for them in VB.NET. A local business hired me to make a sale-tracking program for them in VB.NET a couple months ago. I asked if I could use C# but they wanted to be able to use/change the source code.[/QUOTE]
Sure, by all means it's still used in businesses but the point I was trying to make was that it's just good to know a bit of what goes on under the surface, even if you do plan to be a VB programmer
[QUOTE=Trumple;31176596]Sure, by all means it's still used in businesses but the point I was trying to make was that it's just good to know a bit of what goes on under the surface, even if you do plan to be a VB programmer[/QUOTE]True, I would recommend C# over it any day. VB.NET isn't less of a programming language, though.
[QUOTE=Quark:;31175412]There are many places that will hire you to make stuff for them in VB.NET. A local business hired me to make a sale-tracking program for them in VB.NET a couple months ago. I asked if I could use C# but they wanted to be able to use/change the source code.[/QUOTE]
Code it in C# and decompile it into VB :P
Visual Basic is ridiculed because the only people who use it tend to use it to make a GUI interface to track IP addresses, usually of killers.
[QUOTE=certified;31182613]Visual Basic is ridiculed because the only people who use it tend to use it to make a GUI interface to track IP addresses, usually of killers.[/QUOTE]
Old old joke. Was never that funny anyways.
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