[QUOTE=:0;46732238]Been working on this lately [url]http://eloacademy.com/profile/signup.php[/url] , still not sure about what background color/image to use. It's still a WIP but it's turning out nice imo. The login page is done as well.[/QUOTE]
Try use "background-size: cover" for the background. I believe it'll look better, as the background stretches, and using the cover size function, it'll keep its aspect ratio.
[QUOTE=:0;46732238]Been working on this lately [url]http://eloacademy.com/profile/signup.php[/url] , still not sure about what background color/image to use. It's still a WIP but it's turning out nice imo. The login page is done as well.[/QUOTE]
Use latest splash art by Riot?
Looks nice though, the fact you offer boosting is another thing. As a League player myself I don't really like people who get boosted :v:
Also if you want simple clean URL's: [url]https://github.com/NoahBuscher/Macaw[/url]
(Probably better libraries like Klein.php but I think this one is quite nice)
[QUOTE=Moofy;46732719]Use latest splash art by Riot?
Looks nice though, the fact you offer boosting is another thing. As a League player myself I don't really like people who get boosted :v:
Also if you want simple clean URL's: [url]https://github.com/NoahBuscher/Macaw[/url]
(Probably better libraries like Klein.php but I think this one is quite nice)[/QUOTE]
You don't really need that for clean URL's. A simple nginx rewrite will suffice. If any, he should go with Laravel which would probably serve him better in the long run.
[QUOTE=Svenskunganka;46732786]You don't really need that for clean URL's. A simple nginx rewrite will suffice. If any, he should go with Laravel which would probably serve him better in the long run.[/QUOTE]
It's better having a class to manage your routes. Speaking of Laravel, that's how Laravel does it. Besides, you don't have to use Laravel for everything. Even though it would serve him in the long run maybe he's not interested in it, when I first showed you Laravel you were all about doing it yourself instead so you should know.
Il try background size cover when I get home. What is the point of cleaning the url though?
[QUOTE=:0;46734071]Il try background size cover when I get home. What is the point of cleaning the url though?[/QUOTE]
It looks fancy. I'm not even sure if it helps for SEO.
[QUOTE=Cyberuben;46734109]It looks fancy. I'm not even sure if it helps for SEO.[/QUOTE]
This. Also it makes it obvious to the end-user what page they're on.
[url]http://example.com/products/category/gaming[/url]
Is easier to a non-techie than:
[url]http://example.com/products.php?category=gaming[/url]
[QUOTE=benbb;46734421]This. Also it makes it obvious to the end-user what page they're on.
[url]http://example.com/products/category/gaming[/url]
Is easier to a non-techie than:
[url]http://example.com/products.php?category=gaming[/url][/QUOTE]
True, but I'm quite sure that could be grouped as "it looks fancy".
Il try oh the url thing, as for the design, I'm going for a professional look. I think it looks nice.
[QUOTE=:0;46735030]Il try oh the url thing, as for the design, I'm going for a professional look. I think it looks nice.[/QUOTE]
I really like the design, but there's so much unused space on the login and register page for larger screens. I'd really like to see the you setting the background-size to cover and set its div's min-height to screen height - (size of nav + size of footer). Would look a lot better in my opinion.
As a side note, try to keep the DOM styling to a minimum, centralized development is always easier to work with. For future projects, keep in mind that mobile-first design is also easier to work with, the other way around has a tendency of becoming a hassle in the long run.
Ok thanks for the feedback, I'm actually working on the mobile part of the site, only got the nav done. What would you guys recommend to fill up the space?
[QUOTE=:0;46735658]Ok thanks for the feedback, I'm actually working on the mobile part of the site, only got the nav done. What would you guys recommend to fill up the space?[/QUOTE]
Fill up the space with the background image, check out how it looks for me: [url]http://••••••••1wLPyMu[/url]
[editline]17th December 2014[/editline]
[url]http://svenskunganka.com/share/2014-12-17_19-33-47.jpg[/url]
[editline]17th December 2014[/editline]
Forgot bitly links isn't allowed here, my print urls become so freaking large -.-
Got it, will Change it once I get home.
[QUOTE=Svenskunganka;46735758]Forgot bitly links isn't allowed here[/QUOTE]
Since when?
made some handwritten obfuscated javascript, enjoy deob :smile:
a hint: why does this work on chrome and not safari? hm. (haven't tested on ie or ff, curious to see result)
[code]
(function(a){a=arguments.callee.toString();if(a.length!=168)return;Function([46,28,29,16,4,9,161,20,28,28,6,8,67,127,161,11].map(function(b){return a[b];}).join(''))()})()
[/code]
see it live: [URL="http://jsfiddle.net/Lbu5cqk4/"]http://jsfiddle.net/Lbu5cqk4/[/URL] (hi)
[QUOTE=Map in a box;46725620]I like SOAs, they're much more fun to create IMO if you make the right kind of backend[/QUOTE]
It is indeed. Definitely helps when you want to come back to something later down the line and make a spin off without necessarily pulling apart a service which has limited functionality.
So I'm switching my VPS from ramnode to DigitalOcean. And I want to set up everything properly this time. Webserver with multiple websites with multiple domains and Mail server with multiple domains.
I'm a complete moron when it comes to this kind of stuff. Anyone here who doesn't mind spending a few hours helping me out?
[QUOTE=Miljaker;46742668]So I'm switching my VPS from ramnode to DigitalOcean. And I want to set up everything properly this time. Webserver with multiple websites with multiple domains and Mail server with multiple domains.
I'm a complete moron when it comes to this kind of stuff. Anyone here who doesn't mind spending a few hours helping me out?[/QUOTE]
I can help you out with the website part of things, just add me on steam ;)
[QUOTE=Miljaker;46742668]So I'm switching my VPS from ramnode to DigitalOcean. And I want to set up everything properly this time. Webserver with multiple websites with multiple domains and Mail server with multiple domains.
I'm a complete moron when it comes to this kind of stuff. Anyone here who doesn't mind spending a few hours helping me out?[/QUOTE]
I really strongly recommend learning how to use Chef or Puppet so you can automate this stuff.
[QUOTE=Miljaker;46742668]So I'm switching my VPS from ramnode to DigitalOcean. And I want to set up everything properly this time. Webserver with multiple websites with multiple domains and Mail server with multiple domains.
I'm a complete moron when it comes to this kind of stuff. Anyone here who doesn't mind spending a few hours helping me out?[/QUOTE]
Just wondering, what was your reason to switch from RamNode to DigitalOcean?
So a page back or so I was looking for a language to begin making web apps - and I decided to pick Python with Flask or Django. I think I'm more interested in Flask because we only have to include what we want to, but Django may be better for someone who is a beginner.
Can anyone recommend some good resources for learning these frameworks? I've tried using:
[url]http://blog.miguelgrinberg.com/post/the-flask-mega-tutorial-part-i-hello-world[/url]
But I feel like I need to go into depth more. Maybe a good book would help.
[QUOTE=Darkwater124;46742924]Just wondering, what was your reason to switch from RamNode to DigitalOcean?[/QUOTE]
$100 in credit I got from the Github Education pack. Seriously no other reason. I like Ramnode and the few times I contacted support they helped me instantly. But $100 is still $100 and runs the low end VPS I need for 1,5 years.
You could just use rsync
I mean its shit like this that makes me hate setting up anything on a server:
[php]
hrvoje@vps:~$ telnet vps.hmiljak.com 25
...
ehlo vps.hmiljak.com
...
250-STARTTLS
250-AUTH PLAIN LOGIN
250-AUTH=PLAIN LOGIN
...
[/php]
Works just fine. But wait. Here's port 587.
[php]
hrvoje@vps:~$ telnet vps.hmiljak.com 587
...
ehlo vps.hmiljak.com
...
250-STARTTLS
...
[/php]
Where the fuck is my AUTH...
Having to go trough 100's of lines of config and restarting the services just to get the same result.
When I finally get it working I will back that shit up so hard and never touch it again.
[QUOTE=DerpHurr;46743110]So a page back or so I was looking for a language to begin making web apps - and I decided to pick Python with Flask or Django. I think I'm more interested in Flask because we only have to include what we want to, but Django may be better for someone who is a beginner.
Can anyone recommend some good resources for learning these frameworks? I've tried using:
[url]http://blog.miguelgrinberg.com/post/the-flask-mega-tutorial-part-i-hello-world[/url]
But I feel like I need to go into depth more. Maybe a good book would help.[/QUOTE]
I'm gonna write from personal experience here so keep that in mind that we all are different and have different genes, thought processing, imagination, etc, so my method of learning might not work for you but I sure hope it can help you along the way. The part after this is going to be straight-forward, but further down I feel like I need to explain to [I]anyone[/I] who's going through the exact same thing I did when I was trying to learn and knew close to nothing about how to accomplish my dream of becoming a developer.
When I started learning web development just like you, I did the exact same thing - looked at "Hello world"-tutorials. It always ended up being a copy-paste project and not something I'd learn anything from. This went on for a good while until I got an [I]idea[/I].
This idea changed my whole way of thinking how I should learn new things. I'm not gonna go in-depth why or what it was, but it just did. I simply googled what I thought I needed. "replace text by pattern web", "save form web", etc and it never gave me a tutorial. It always gave me results from other people wondering where a direct answer was given. Almost always stackoverflow or superuser. I then noticed that my way of learning is by ideas which I have to turn into reality. I can't learn anything new by doing something I don't feel as passionate about as some of my own ideas, or in my case right now, NodeJS & AngularJS.
With those two frameworks I barely even need ideas anymore, the frameworks themselves fuels me and that is something I really think you should try to find. [I]Something[/I] that fuels your passion to learn new things. And I don't mean lighter fluid here, but more like Nitroglycerin or a volcano eruption. I can't tell you what. Nobody can. Some people are fueled by working with someone, others are fueled by curiosity, etc. Eveybody's different.
What I'm trying to say here is that if an idea is enough to fuel your passion to learn - then use your best technique to get an idea and I am 120% positive that you will learn either Flask or Django twice as fast, twice as much better and have five times more fun while doing it, for you are doing it for yourself and not a teacher, a company or a customer or anybody else.
I wrote earlier that I wanted to put my word out there for anyone who have no idea how they are going to learn development or anything "mind-related" that you simply need a computer to do. This whole post might be a bit cheesy but it's the truth, and there's nothing I stand by more than this very opinion.
I am going to start out by telling my story and that web development has been my dream since I was 14. When I found out about what I wanted to be, I was in high-school. I was taking classes that didn't fuel me at all. I felt like I was learning something that I was never going to use again. Basically I just felt like I was wasting my time. This ended up in me staying home from school too often, although I was required to go there and spend my days there until I had finished my 9 years in school. When I was home, I was either playing games or looking at "Hello World"-tutorials and when I was in school, I only goofed around, setting off the fire alarm, being a total assfuck to everybody who was actually there to learn, to those who were fueled by studying with friends, but I was there because I was required to attend and if I didn't my parents were gonna go rampage-mode on me.
When I finished high-school I had to go to something called "Gymnasium" here in Sweden which is probably equivalent of College in the US, which is a 3-year [I]optional[/I] course where you get to somewhat choose what you want to do. I chose something along electrician with focus on network techical stuff. When I was there for an introduction of the school I asked if this particular course had programming involved and they told me that there was, but I soon noticed that it wasn't anything like I expected. About 3 months in I started goofing off there aswell, and the reason I didn't drop out right away was because it is in fact taboo being a dropout, my parents was going to be breathing down my neck, informing me of what I [I]failure[/I] I am and the fact that if I were to drop out, I would have to wait until the next year to apply for another kind of course and be in a class one year younger than me.
Eventually I did drop out, roughly about 6 months in. That's 6 months of the most important time of my youth wasted. After that I decided to start working part-time. I started working as a glazier, while self-studying web development which I couldn't find a way to learn. The next year, I decided to try agian, and this time I chose the Design & Development course which actually did have programming involved along with the other 80% of studies being things I felt I'd never use in my life agian. I've always had a sharp mind when it comes to logical things. Math, development, language always made perfect sense to me. I had highest grades in math, english and development during my studies there, but those other 80% just plain drained my lust for learning, and yes, eventually I dropped out from there too so yes I am a dropout. Although the next two years was completely different for me. I worked full-time as a glazier then aswell, but every minute of my freetime I did spend on learning web development and I had finally found that [I]thing[/I] that fueled my drive to learn it. But on the other hand, my life was a complete mess. I went into a terrible depression (which I still haven't gotten past fully yet, but I'm on the path of doing that) which caused that I never went outside. All my friends except the [I]real[/I] ones started ignoring me, which was to be expected and I don't blame them. This whole depression and locking myself inside took a great hit on my "social" part. You know how it is, all your self-confidence is torn apart, I started feeling sick whenever I did something "social", etc. Both my parents looked down on me and did not believe in me, all my siblings except my closest brother looked down on me. During that part of my life, it was just me, my brother and my two best friends.
Anyway, last year I was decided that I'm knowledgeable enough to look for a job in web development. Before I did, I quit my glazier job in a very bad way. After I did that, all hell broke loose within my family. Some seriously bad shit happened, but I managed to pull through and look for a job. I applied for atleast 10 jobs where one of them accepted me for an interview. I went there, keep in mind that I was socially fucked up aswell, but it went perfect. I first sat down with the boss, and I noticed he wasn't too interested in hiring me, but as soon as the other web developer stepped in and we started discussing web development, the other dev noticed that I was really good at what I do for my age and the boss told me later after hiring me that he saw how my eyes came alive when talking about web dev. And those two reasons were enough for them. They didn't even ask for any grades.
TL;DR
What I'm trying to say is that if you cannot possibly in any logical way learn by studying in school or society's way of teaching you, drop out and find [I]your[/I] way of learning. It can be anything, but I beg you, don't waste your time on [I][U]something that does not fuel your drive[/U][/I].
You don't choose your parents, you don't choose your siblings. You don't choose your way of processing thoughts, feelings or ideas. Cut off the strings to those who drag you down and pull you away from your dream. Nobody but you will be happier in the end and I wish nothing else for you than to live by your dream and be happy, and this goes for all of you.
I despise those who are forcing you to live by the rules of a society you did not choose to be part of.
I despise those who drag you down by constantly telling you that you will not suceed, that you are a failure.
I despise those who try to shape you by their own ideals, thoughts and opinions.
I despise those who cannot see that we are all different, in every single way there is possible.
You do not want to work for a company that judges you and your skills by a piece of paper and believes the judgement that [I]someone else[/I] has brought upon you instead of making a judgement [I]themselves[/I] off skills [I]you[/I] provide.
And for those of you who can see a tiny fraction of yourself in this post, know that I wish nothing else for you than to find your fuel and that I got everything I ever wanted now and that I would be more than happy to help you find your way of learning and getting past the absolute shit that I know you may be going through.
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mtJOu29qbQ[/url]
[QUOTE=Svenskunganka;46744562]I'm gonna write from personal experience here so keep that in mind that we all are different and have different genes, thought processing, imagination, etc, so my method of learning might not work for you but I sure hope it can help you along the way. The part after this is going to be straight-forward, but further down I feel like I need to explain to [I]anyone[/I] who's going through the exact same thing I did when I was trying to learn and knew close to nothing about how to accomplish my dream of becoming a developer.
When I started learning web development just like you, I did the exact same thing - looked at "Hello world"-tutorials. It always ended up being a copy-paste project and not something I'd learn anything from. This went on for a good while until I got an [I]idea[/I].
This idea changed my whole way of thinking how I should learn new things. I'm not gonna go in-depth why or what it was, but it just did. I simply googled what I thought I needed. "replace text by pattern web", "save form web", etc and it never gave me a tutorial. It always gave me results from other people wondering where a direct answer was given. Almost always stackoverflow or superuser. I then noticed that my way of learning is by ideas which I have to turn into reality. I can't learn anything new by doing something I don't feel as passionate about as some of my own ideas, or in my case right now, NodeJS & AngularJS.
With those two frameworks I barely even need ideas anymore, the frameworks themselves fuels me and that is something I really think you should try to find. [I]Something[/I] that fuels your passion to learn new things. And I don't mean lighter fluid here, but more like Nitroglycerin or a volcano eruption. I can't tell you what. Nobody can. Some people are fueled by working with someone, others are fueled by curiosity, etc. Eveybody's different.
What I'm trying to say here is that if an idea is enough to fuel your passion to learn - then use your best technique to get an idea and I am 120% positive that you will learn either Flask or Django twice as fast, twice as much better and have five times more fun while doing it, for you are doing it for yourself and not a teacher, a company or a customer or anybody else.
I wrote earlier that I wanted to put my word out there for anyone who have no idea how they are going to learn development or anything "mind-related" that you simply need a computer to do. This whole post might be a bit cheesy but it's the truth, and there's nothing I stand by more than this very opinion.
I am going to start out by telling my story and that web development has been my dream since I was 14. When I found out about what I wanted to be, I was in high-school. I was taking classes that didn't fuel me at all. I felt like I was learning something that I was never going to use again. Basically I just felt like I was wasting my time. This ended up in me staying home from school too often, although I was required to go there and spend my days there until I had finished my 9 years in school. When I was home, I was either playing games or looking at "Hello World"-tutorials and when I was in school, I only goofed around, setting off the fire alarm, being a total assfuck to everybody who was actually there to learn, to those who were fueled by studying with friends, but I was there because I was required to attend and if I didn't my parents were gonna go rampage-mode on me.
When I finished high-school I had to go to something called "Gymnasium" here in Sweden which is probably equivalent of College in the US, which is a 3-year [I]optional[/I] course where you get to somewhat choose what you want to do. I chose something along electrician with focus on network techical stuff. When I was there for an introduction of the school I asked if this particular course had programming involved and they told me that there was, but I soon noticed that it wasn't anything like I expected. About 3 months in I started goofing off there aswell, and the reason I didn't drop out right away was because it is in fact taboo being a dropout, my parents was going to be breathing down my neck, informing me of what I [I]failure[/I] I am and the fact that if I were to drop out, I would have to wait until the next year to apply for another kind of course and be in a class one year younger than me.
Eventually I did drop out, roughly about 6 months in. That's 6 months of the most important time of my youth wasted. After that I decided to start working part-time. I started working as a glazier, while self-studying web development which I couldn't find a way to learn. The next year, I decided to try agian, and this time I chose the Design & Development course which actually did have programming involved along with the other 80% of studies being things I felt I'd never use in my life agian. I've always had a sharp mind when it comes to logical things. Math, development, language always made perfect sense to me. I had highest grades in math, english and development during my studies there, but those other 80% just plain drained my lust for learning, and yes, eventually I dropped out from there too so yes I am a dropout. Although the next two years was completely different for me. I worked full-time as a glazier then aswell, but every minute of my freetime I did spend on learning web development and I had finally found that [I]thing[/I] that fueled my drive to learn it. But on the other hand, my life was a complete mess. I went into a terrible depression (which I still haven't gotten past fully yet, but I'm on the path of doing that) which caused that I never went outside. All my friends except the [I]real[/I] ones started ignoring me, which was to be expected and I don't blame them. This whole depression and locking myself inside took a great hit on my "social" part. You know how it is, all your self-confidence is torn apart, I started feeling sick whenever I did something "social", etc. Both my parents looked down on me and did not believe in me, all my siblings except my closest brother looked down on me. During that part of my life, it was just me, my brother and my two best friends.
Anyway, last year I was decided that I'm knowledgeable enough to look for a job in web development. Before I did, I quit my glazier job in a very bad way. After I did that, all hell broke loose within my family. Some seriously bad shit happened, but I managed to pull through and look for a job. I applied for atleast 10 jobs where one of them accepted me for an interview. I went there, keep in mind that I was socially fucked up aswell, but it went perfect. I first sat down with the boss, and I noticed he wasn't too interested in hiring me, but as soon as the other web developer stepped in and we started discussing web development, the other dev noticed that I was really good at what I do for my age and the boss told me later after hiring me that he saw how my eyes came alive when talking about web dev. And those two reasons were enough for them. They didn't even ask for any grades.
TL;DR
What I'm trying to say is that if you cannot possibly in any logical way learn by studying in school or society's way of teaching you, drop out and find [I]your[/I] way of learning. It can be anything, but I beg you, don't waste your time on [I][U]something that does not fuel your drive[/U][/I].
You don't choose your parents, you don't choose your siblings. You don't choose your way of processing thoughts, feelings or ideas. Cut off the strings to those who drag you down and pull you away from your dream. Nobody but you will be happier in the end and I wish nothing else for you than to live by your dream and be happy, and this goes for all of you.
I despise those who are forcing you to live by the rules of a society you did not choose to be part of.
I despise those who drag you down by constantly telling you that you will not suceed, that you are a failure.
I despise those who try to shape you by their own ideals, thoughts and opinions.
I despise those who cannot see that we are all different, in every single way there is possible.
You do not want to work for a company that judges you and your skills by a piece of paper and believes the judgement that [I]someone else[/I] has brought upon you instead of making a judgement [I]themselves[/I] off skills [I]you[/I] provide.
And for those of you who can see a tiny fraction of yourself in this post, know that I wish nothing else for you than to find your fuel and that I got everything I ever wanted now and that I would be more than happy to help you find your way of learning and getting past the absolute shit that I know you may be going through.
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mtJOu29qbQ[/url][/QUOTE]
Sven, that was a very heartfelt post. Thank you for taking the time to share your story.
It resonates with me quite a bit. While I haven't had too many hardships, I've been stuck with the 'Hello World' tutorials for a while now. It is very hard to escape them if you don't know what you're doing. The first thing you think of when you want to learn something is - where can I find out how to do this? The first thing someone will likely do is look up a tutorial, because it is an easy way to get things done quickly. But you're right. You learn ABSOLUTELY nothing compared to what you would if you tried to do it on you're own. You know what I was thinking after I posted this? "Man I hope I'm able to focus through a tutorial if someone has a good one to show me." You made me realize that not only am I not excited about what I'm learning, but it isn't helping me at all. It is just wasting time. My goal may be related to the tutorial I'm looking at, but it isn't going to help me get there because it isn't inspiring. You eventually get bored of copying this and trying to fill in gaps of information. Then you just end up looking up another tutorial because you feel that one didn't have enough depth...
It's a terrible cycle. Kind of funny actually, two friends of mine were actually telling me to ditch tutorials because I'll never really learn. It is SO hard to change. But I'm going to do it because I like web development, and I have ideas for things that I want to eventually create. I'm never going to achieve these goals if I trudge through tutorials endlessly hoping to be able to apply the minuscule knowledge I gain from them towards my project. I should pick my goal and project, and start working on it. Do it in iterations. It'll suck, but you know more now so you can improve it. Its clear to see, but hard to do. It'll only make me better if I do it the harder way. I think I'm going to start from MY project now, and build it from the ground up. I'll do it by reading, learning, and doing it the right way. I think the actual documentation is a good place to start.
Also, I posted this in the wrong thread (sorry to those who will care). Also I wrote this in one go, so sorry if there are grammatical errors/odd sounding sentences.
Thank you again Sven, and I'm very happy to hear that your story had a nice ending (and beginning). I see you on here a lot and you've helped a lot of people, including me. You really know your stuff.
Thank you.
EDIT: That video was great by the way. Makes me want to take courses I'm more interested in. In fact I just got done with a course I had absolutely no interest in and I'll never really use what I was taught in it. Maybe a few things, but not much at all..
[QUOTE=Miljaker;46744379]I mean its shit like this that makes me hate setting up anything on a server:
[php]
hrvoje@vps:~$ telnet vps.hmiljak.com 25
...
ehlo vps.hmiljak.com
...
250-STARTTLS
250-AUTH PLAIN LOGIN
250-AUTH=PLAIN LOGIN
...
[/php]
Works just fine. But wait. Here's port 587.
[php]
hrvoje@vps:~$ telnet vps.hmiljak.com 587
...
ehlo vps.hmiljak.com
...
250-STARTTLS
...
[/php]
Where the fuck is my AUTH...
Having to go trough 100's of lines of config and restarting the services just to get the same result.
When I finally get it working I will back that shit up so hard and never touch it again.[/QUOTE]
And this is why you use something like chef or puppet so you never have to go through this again when you set up a new server or when you come back to manage the server a year later and forget how everything is set up.
[QUOTE=KmartSqrl;46750759]And this is why you use something like chef or puppet so you never have to go through this again when you set up a new server or when you come back to manage the server a year later and forget how everything is set up.[/QUOTE]
Yea but from what I can tell neither of them is going to help me set it up initially. My biggest problem.
You can generally leverage third party cookbooks for a lot of stuff that will actually help with the initial setup :)
Also makes it a lot easier to test configs if you're using vagrant or something because you can nuke and rebuild the machine without worrying about fucking up what's already working.
I find the WAYWO threads like this to be helpful in feeding my inspiration. Where else do you guys frequent? The other WIP sites like dribble/behance focus too much on screenshots and not on theory. I find the true value of this thread to be the discussions that evolve, its motivating.
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