yeah, depending on the game/engine it will probably look fine
[QUOTE=azgag;38793151]the problem with modifying your normal map in photoshop is that everytime you have to rebake (could be to modify it, fix it or w/e) you would have to modify it in photoshop everytime as well.[/QUOTE]
I've never done this and I wouldn't reccommend it, but I've thought about how to remove that re-edit side-effect of having wavyness in your normals, when you edit your normal map save all the parts you're editing out as seperate layers, combine the layers (so you have your base normal and a layer of edits) then couldn't you just put that layer ontop of your base if you need to rebake? Then you don't need to re-edit anything because it'll be the stock normal map which is changing, saving all of the edits.
As I said, never tested this but I thought it was worth mentioning, there's probably a massive flaw or 5 to this which will render the whole process pointless.
Had a quick go at baking onto a basic cylinder - it has more sides than the last one, so it looks a bit smoother, but the cap seems to have lost a fair amount of depth. Still got waves at the top, too - might just see if adding another edge loop up there helps.
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/Kjn0p.png[/IMG]
[QUOTE=- Livewire -;38793282]I've never done this and I wouldn't reccommend it, but I've thought about how to remove that re-edit side-effect of having wavyness in your normals, when you edit your normal map save all the parts you're editing out as seperate layers, combine the layers (so you have your base normal and a layer of edits) then couldn't you just put that layer ontop of your base if you need to rebake? Then you don't need to re-edit anything because it'll be the stock normal map which is changing, saving all of the edits.
As I said, never tested this but I thought it was worth mentioning, there's probably a massive flaw or 5 to this which will render the whole process pointless.[/QUOTE]
yeah I agree it's worth pointing out, I haven't tried it myself, but I could see how it could be useful if you have a final bake. Usually it's a bad idea to merge different normal maps by hand, I would recommend something like nDo2 that lets you do that correctly.
I just follow by example, Lonewolf does loads of different bakes and combines them to come up with a final, he only uses PS and 3DS and he can make shit like this.
Huge picture so I'll just post a link. - [url]http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/5466/hawkenmechm06texturedlo.jpg[/url]
can you link to a process/explanation that he made regarding what you're talking about?
i mean tons of people do separate bakes for things but that doesn't necessarily mean they edit the normals themselves, they usually just combining them (like if you do a gun's stock in one bake and the barrel in another). or they add in details they make with things like crazybump or nDo
[editline]11th December 2012[/editline]
also I don't really care if it's something he doesn't fully understand at the moment. i'm saying that rather then tell him to try a bad practice because the content may be hard to comprehend at first, he should take the time to learn a highly technical process. while it's not the easiest part of game art to learn, it's essential until we have the power to display extremely high poly models without the need to bake.
polycount is pretty much all you need to learn about this. for those of you interested, have another link:
[url]http://wiki.polycount.com/NormalMap[/url]
we don't need more artists baking incorrectly when a good amount of the industries artists can't bake a correct normal map themselves and this issue has only been recently coming to light (especially normal map syncing and smoothing group issues).
[QUOTE=DOG-GY;38796124]can you link to a process/explanation that he made regarding what you're talking about?
i mean tons of people do separate bakes for things but that doesn't necessarily mean they edit the normals themselves, they usually just combining them (like if you do a gun's stock in one bake and the barrel in another). or they add in details they make with things like crazybump or nDo
[editline]11th December 2012[/editline]
also I don't really care if it's something he doesn't fully understand at the moment. i'm saying that rather then tell him to try a bad practice because the content may be hard to comprehend at first, he should take the time to learn a highly technical process. while it's not the easiest part of game art to learn, it's essential until we have the power to display extremely high poly models without the need to bake.
polycount is pretty much all you need to learn about this. for those of you interested, have another link:
[url]http://wiki.polycount.com/NormalMap[/url]
we don't need more artists baking incorrectly when a good amount of the industries artists can't bake a correct normal map themselves and this issue has only been recently coming to light (especially normal map syncing and smoothing group issues).[/QUOTE]
I totally agree with the last part (and the rest), it probably has to do with the fact that tangent basis are rendered differently in engines or even 3D packages (and people not understanding how averaging normals works). Here's a really nice tool that could help fixing that in today's industry [url]http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=108744[/url]
I made this for source normalmaps a little while back.
[t]https://dl.dropbox.com/u/21161113/vertexlitgeneric2.jpg[/t]
It's a part of a series and more targeted to newcomers.
[QUOTE=azgag;38797943]I totally agree with the last part (and the rest), it probably has to do with the fact that tangent basis are rendered differently in engines or even 3D packages (and people not understanding how averaging normals works). Here's a really nice tool that could help fixing that in today's industry [url]http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=108744[/url][/QUOTE]
I've seen that tool but haven't played around with it yet. and yeah when i said normal map syncing i was referring to the tangents being not being synced between engines which is a huge problem that imo shouldn't really exist in the first place.
By the way NotExactly, yes it will help if you put an edgeloop at either end.
[QUOTE=- Livewire -;38800473]By the way NotExactly, yes it will help if you put an edgeloop at either end.[/QUOTE]
I really don't think so, unless all his edges are smoothed. UV boundaries and hard edge cause vertex "splits" so adding edgeloops shouldn't matter.
[QUOTE=azgag;38800956]I really don't think so, unless all his edges are smoothed.[/QUOTE]
assumed that's what he's doing.
I made a Satan hat. The intent was velvet on the red area, which I have not set up the specularity with yet
[img]http://i.imgur.com/et4Bp.png[/img]
850 tris
Bake was pretty shitty but whatevs I'm a rebel I'm cool I don't care about that stuff, all I care about is the wind in my hair while I ride on my hog
[QUOTE=A big fat ass;38810780]I made a Satan hat. The intent was velvet on the red area, which I have not set up the specularity with yet
[img]http://i.imgur.com/et4Bp.png[/img]
850 tris
Bake was pretty shitty but whatevs I'm a rebel I'm cool I don't care about that stuff, all I care about is the wind in my hair while I ride on my hog[/QUOTE]
Been a while since I saw any good Santa hats.
Ahaha, Satan hats. Looks really good though.
[QUOTE=azgag;38800956]I really don't think so, unless all his edges are smoothed. UV boundaries and hard edge cause vertex "splits" so adding edgeloops shouldn't matter.[/QUOTE]
the cage would (should) be averaged regardless of smoothing groups / uv splits, so it would still help with the waviness if he put edgeloops at the ends
+ if it's just a regular cylinder with 2 smoothing groups (top/bottom and the side) he can remove the edges after baking without screwing with the shading
[QUOTE=Lt_C;38797965]I made this for source normalmaps a little while back.
[t]https://dl.dropbox.com/u/21161113/vertexlitgeneric2.jpg[/t]
It's a part of a series and more targeted to newcomers.[/QUOTE]
so i had no idea that source doesn't use the blue channel in normal maps (I don't use the source engine). why is this? does it do a DeriveNormalZ thing like UDK can do or what?
After further testing, I've found that it changes the direction of the normal completely. In theory, you can flip the normals of the model by making the blue channel black, but it's kind of a shitty way to do it. Having a non-255 blue channel will produce a bad result.
The blue channel isn't used mostly though because it isn't needed. You only need to generate angles for the X and Y axis, and there's three channels to work with. Normal maps are more of a data matrix then a texture, the third value just isn't used.
the blue channel is the outward/inward vector, it is needed but it can be roughly calculated, like with how unreal can do a derivenormalz function. I don't know how this works technically but it's not like the blue channel just does nothing. you get pretty flat looking normals without any data for outward inward being there.
here's a cool use for the blue channel that is pretty atypical:
[url]http://wiki.polycount.com/NormalMap?action=show&redirect=Normal+Map#Back_Lighting_Example[/url]
[editline]13th December 2012[/editline]
also i can't speak for source but the blue channel is used in other engines all the time.
and yes they are basically a visual data matrix
[editline]13th December 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=A big fat ass;38810780]I made a Satan hat. The intent was velvet on the red area, which I have not set up the specularity with yet
[img]http://i.imgur.com/et4Bp.png[/img]
850 tris
Bake was pretty shitty but whatevs I'm a rebel I'm cool I don't care about that stuff, all I care about is the wind in my hair while I ride on my hog[/QUOTE]
I think the size of the creases is pretty good for velvet but I think adding in a little bit of noise (natural noise based on velvet photos or something, not computer generated) into the diffuse could help sell the material a lot.
the white doesn't really look like a real santa hat though. i'd try playing around with it some more to help sell it. also you've got some seams and maybe lighting issues on the ball on the tip of the hat
I'm sorry, I meant that it does nothing from a texture artist standpoint.
I'm just saying that generally speaking, for texturing anything other then cards, there is just a much much higher chance of undesired effects. I can't speak for use in other engines, but I can't think of a single instance of the blue channel being used for anything similar in source. It's a neat idea though.
From my texture conversion experience, I know at least a few modern engines do away with it altogether. When I was porting from AVP, I found that the traditional normal was holding the G channel in RGB, the R in A, and A in the A of the diffuse. This was done more to avoid DDS compression artifacting since the R channel is the most heavily compressed. Same can be said for the engine COD runs on.
I could be wrong about its use in source, but I have seen no substantial change between textures with a flat blue and a program generated blue, at least nothing strong enough to warrant special mention.
Edit:
Upon further inspection, the blue channel is used as an ambient occlusion strength map on the cornea map of the EP2 eye shader
[QUOTE=Lt_C;38820284]I'm sorry, I meant that it does nothing from a texture artist standpoint.
I'm just saying that generally speaking, for texturing anything other then cards, there is just a much much higher chance of undesired effects. I can't speak for use in other engines, but I can't think of a single instance of the blue channel being used for anything similar in source. It's a neat idea though.
From my texture conversion experience, I know at least a few modern engines do away with it altogether. When I was porting from AVP, I found that the traditional normal was holding the G channel in RGB, the R in A, and A in the A of the diffuse. This was done more to avoid DDS compression artifacting since the R channel is the most heavily compressed. Same can be said for the engine COD runs on.
I could be wrong about its use in source, but I have seen no substantial change between textures with a flat blue and a program generated blue, at least nothing strong enough to warrant special mention.
Edit:
Upon further inspection, the blue channel is used as an ambient occlusion strength map on the cornea map of the EP2 eye shader[/QUOTE]
not sure if you are talking shader-wise, but the blue channel of a normal map can be used for a lot of things when painting a diffuse and/or specular map, like a quick way to do ambient occlusion, or even cavity, it could be used as a base to add dirt etc...
The blue channel does things in Source.
[QUOTE=azgag;38821211]not sure if you are talking shader-wise, but the blue channel of a normal map can be used for a lot of things when painting a diffuse and/or specular map, like a quick way to do ambient occlusion, or even cavity, it could be used as a base to add dirt etc...[/QUOTE]
Are you talking about using a rendered blue channel for other things? I'm talking about what the engine uses it for. Most programs do generate a nasty looking edge highlight in the blue channel for angles >180 degrees.
I'm going to pull from the [url=https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Normalmap]VDC[/url] on this one.
[quote][b]Blue[/b]
Height (Z axis). Valve's "flat" bump map textures use 248.
0 = facing 'in' to the texture, away from the viewer. This is a 'bad' value. Anything under 128 means that the surface should be facing away from the player, which is not possible.
128 = maximum depth capable of receiving dynamic light. It's a bad idea to go under this.
255 = facing 'out' of the texture towards the viewer.[/quote]
Like I said earlier, it does flip the normal, more or less, which means that yes, it does do something, but nothing worth mentioning in terms of general texture editing or understanding the source shader system. I argue that since it has little practical application and no general implementation (that I know of) in any source content generated by valve, I felt that it wasn't important enough to include on an "introduction to source textures" tutorial.
I made a flare gun for my modeling class.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/BNLaU.jpg[/img]
That's a tiny picture. I am curious to see see how it fits in with Tales from the Galacticoctagon.
More bigger pictures:
[img]http://25.media.tumblr.com/9d68b8434b223d546cfeeb9dcd65eea9/tumblr_meyqzeMJZN1r85bmyo1_1280.jpg[/img]
[img]http://25.media.tumblr.com/ae4c156ead339568377aa01479398e3b/tumblr_meyqzeMJZN1r85bmyo5_1280.jpg[/img]
[img]http://24.media.tumblr.com/b58f9caec8cab56bd31f7ab012ab0a7e/tumblr_meyqzeMJZN1r85bmyo8_1280.jpg[/img]
[QUOTE=Lt_C;38821829]Are you talking about using a rendered blue channel for other things? I'm talking about what the engine uses it for. Most programs do generate a nasty looking edge highlight in the blue channel for angles >180 degrees.[/QUOTE]
I have no idea what you're talking about with "a nasty looking edge highlight". can you elaborate? Also, you can't really have an angle greater than 180 degrees and a 180 degree angle from a plane would be a plane going back in on itself.
Hey guys, I'm interested in doing Source stuff in Maya. I looked around a little but I didn't find any great tutorials--anyone know if there's a go-to guide for Maya to Source?
drun1q modeling FTWWWWWWWWWWWW
VEHICLE FOR HALO 5:ODST
[IMG]http://puu.sh/1AI3L[/IMG]
[QUOTE=TH89;38824128]Hey guys, I'm interested in doing Source stuff in Maya. I looked around a little but I didn't find any great tutorials--anyone know if there's a go-to guide for Maya to Source?[/QUOTE]
hey, the pipeline from Maya to Source isn't that bad once you've done it 1-2-3 times. Here's a great guide (for 2011, works for 2012 and 2013): [url]http://www.northcapestudios.com/blog/?p=45[/url].
Feel free to contact me on Steam if you need help with it.
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