That example was from a british tv show that uses small details to explain how murders took place (the detective is actually a guy who designs magic acts for a living). But i thought that the story for "House of Monkeys" was a perfect example of a locked room murder, which then translates into the sort of detail that maps should contain.
I have used all kinds of examples, and they are just that. They are ways to help you understand how important small details are. AAA titles are not the only places that this level of detail should be used. Every map that comes out of the editor and is released should contain the same amount of thought.
The truck didn't need to be on the road. It could have been on the side of the road, on a gravel section, like a roadside car park. In fact, if you had added an entrance to a car park, and then added the truck with a small amount of rotation past the 90 degrees, and had a car looking like it had rammed it, that would give reason for it being how it is. But the truck is one example that we keep coming back to. In a way, the truck is being used as an example for the rest of the slightly weird things that are wrong with the map, areas that you won't work on.
Zombies are scary things. You are using a zombie infection as the theme of your story. Where are the fires, the broken windows, the hurriedly parked cars, the cars that have crashed into things. An atmosphere is as important as gameplay features. Never mind that this map isn't being released with a game, it should be thought of and included.
Wait !! First question - did you play the map ? I'm sure - no.
There IS 1 car that crashed the wall, 1 truck that was exploded, fell helicopter, 2 apcs, and 3 cars which are placed in different poses and are going to explode or fall on the players and other things. Falling crane with its container, finally :)
There is 1 broken gasline - it emits death gas (it can be started by traitors), also there is huge fire in a this oval building that starts at the start of the round. Also there is another broken gasline that explodes when traitors want to and it emits the fire. There are also 4 broken windows at different buildings. Broken Electric transformator will cast dead sparks. And believe me, there is even one roof of some building in a skybox that is in a dark brown fire and black smoke is flying away from it. Also there is broke wooden building that falls when traitors want to. If it wasnt TTT, I would mess up all these things already, but I gave a chance for traitors to kill by these things.
Maybe I didnt show the screenshots at these places, but I'm sure that you didnt play the map in-game if you just typed the things missing which were already made by me...
[QUOTE=Jarro;32058325]Wait !! First question - did you play the map ? I'm sure - no.
There IS 1 car that crashed the wall, 1 truck that was exploded, fell helicopter, 2 apcs, and 3 cars which are placed in different poses and are going to explode or fall on the players and other things. Falling crane with its container, finally :)
There is 1 broken gasline - it emits death gas (it can be started by traitors), also there is huge fire in a this oval building that starts at the start of the round. Also there is another broken gasline that explodes when traitors want to and it emits the fire. There are also 4 broken windows at different buildings. Broken Electric transformator will cast dead sparks. And believe me, there is even one roof of some building in a skybox that is in a dark brown fire and black smoke is flying away from it. Also there is broke wooden building that falls when traitors want to. If it wasnt TTT, I would mess up all these things already, but I gave a chance for traitors to kill by these things.
Maybe I didnt show the screenshots at these places, but I'm sure that you didnt play the map in-game if you just typed the things missing which were already made by me...[/QUOTE]
You are right there, i didn't play the map. Mainly because i judge the map via screenshots. So you managed to take screenshots of all the worst places?
maybe. I'm a terrible photographer :D
I just took the environment at general to show all the map view and its different [I]gameplay[/I] areas, not to tell the story of zombie infection (because it is overused too much to be a so 'conspicuous' face of the map) with the screenshots. I saw many of maps with the screenshots how is zombie (for example) lying on a bloody paper boxes in a dark corner of the map but will this screenshot show all the gameplay potential ? nope i think :) and I didnt download any map with the screenshots like that
[QUOTE=Jarro;32059008]maybe. I'm a terrible photographer :D
I just took the environment at general to show all the map view and its different [I]gameplay[/I] areas, not to tell the story of zombie infection (because it is overused too much to be a so 'conspicuous' face of the map) with the screenshots. I saw many of maps with the screenshots how is zombie (for example) lying on a bloody paper boxes in a dark corner of the map but will this screenshot show all the gameplay potential ? nope i think :) and I didnt download any map with the screenshots like that[/QUOTE]
You haven't shown the better areas of the map. You have shown the areas with the least atmosphere.
I hope you says it after you checked the map ingame. Because I'm confused after many posts and IDK does my map look good or bad and does it have any atmosphere lol. It has everything I described at this thread though.
:<
Please HALP almost 1/2 of users which downloaded this map are getting RELIABLE SNAPSHOT OVERFLOW
how to fix it ? I read that these things can be cause by a bad optimization... but I didnt have something like that so HALP :(
[QUOTE=Jarro;32062148]Please HALP almost 1/2 of users which downloaded this map are getting RELIABLE SNAPSHOT OVERFLOW
how to fix it ? I read that these things can be cause by a bad optimization... but I didnt have something like that so HALP :([/QUOTE]
Did you use nodraw? Are there are brushes clipping into eachother?
Mmmm NODRAW brushes arent clipping other brushes.
I think that the problem is there: I turned 90% of brushes into a func_detail (I left only 3-4 of brushes) and even then it was SO long compile. So maybe it is a reason.
if I turned it into the world brushes and then just Fast-Vissed would it work ?
[QUOTE=Jarro;32059635]I hope you says it after you checked the map ingame. Because I'm confused after many posts and IDK does my map look good or bad and does it have any atmosphere lol. It has everything I described at this thread though.
:<[/QUOTE]
I'm not going to check the map ingame. Partly because i judge by screenshots, and partly because you really don't want a guy who tests software for a living going into your map.
[QUOTE]you really don't want a guy who tests software for a living going into your map. [/QUOTE]
why ?
[QUOTE=Jarro;32063531]why ?[/QUOTE]
Because i will rip it to shreds. You can't even take the whole "little stories" idea on board. Do you really want a list of bugs in great detail?
[QUOTE=Jarro;32063216]Mmmm NODRAW brushes arent clipping other brushes.
I think that the problem is there: I turned 90% of brushes into a func_detail (I left only 3-4 of brushes) and even then it was SO long compile. So maybe it is a reason.
if I turned it into the world brushes and then just Fast-Vissed would it work ?[/QUOTE]
Turning everything into a func_detail is a bad idea because it changes the lighting drastically. On the final compile, don't use Fast anything, make sure everything is on Normal. If you need to test an area, use the Cordon tool.
Downloading it now. I take the comment "almost no bugs" as a challenge.
Btw, that software i mentioned...most of it was games.
EDIT: Too many bugs really, i'll do my best though.
1. Z-fighting on top of gantry near docks.
2. Floating building and base next to road.
3. None of the crashes have been thought out
4. Numerous fences without supports.
5. Cars clip with fences on overpass
6. Areas of overpass have no textures
7. Reflection on overpass doesn't match the buildings behind.
8. Attic room entrance is a plank on some boxes, where are the stairs?
9. Three cars blocking the entrance in the tunnel, all are facing the player. Again, has not been thought out.
10. Some fences have poorly used textures on the top of them
11. Where models have been deemed too big, instead of different models used, the props have been sunk into the ground (the cylindrical things in the oddly placed substation).
12. Who places a substation in the middle of the walkway?
13. Floating/clipping fences
14. Npc's outside playable area. Most of the time, these would not be seen, so you are wasting render time on these.
15. Some roofs are nodraw, yet can be seen from the playable area. Low res, single sided props use on roofs. Some props on roofs arn't even attached to the roof.
16. Odd rotating fence pieces in 3d skybox. Again, useless, not needed, and its wasting render time.
17. Combine helicopter starts clipping through floor. This could cause physics issues and kill anyone going near it. As such, in that state, the cpu will be working to calculate physics, even though its not needed.
18. Most of the buildings are not very realistic. The roof thing with the floor mats and lettering on the floor looks plain bad.
Need any more?
yes I need [U]all[/U] the bugs.
[QUOTE]Because i will rip it to shreds. You can't even take the whole "little stories" idea on board. Do you really want a list of bugs in great detail? [/QUOTE]
These selfish sentences were made by very, very self-centered man, do you really want to be like this man? I hope no. I also hope you dont think that I will delete the map and will sit down and cry, really.
I will cut the bugs off with this stupid Overflow error
6. Areas of overpass have no textures
sorry can you screenshot all the level ? It seems that the picture I see isnt like your in the game. :(
16.That is spectator's challenge lol.
Spectator gets a melon and moves it to the end through the rotating stuff when the round is going too boring.
You wanted to demotivate me but I will say 'thanks' to you
[B]TCB[/B] Idk why, but when I'm trying to turn some brushes to world instead of func_brush and when I'm compiling all the level it doesnt reach the end of VIS compile even after 3 hours ! (i didnt try to compile more). So does anyone have any recommends ?
PS this map is made by a newbie. Not 2 days were used to make it. Not 2 weeks. Not 2 months. So it is so important to me to MAKE THIS MAP WITHOUT BUGS AND ERRORS !
Here is the first Deathrun version [URL="http://customiv.googlecode.com/files/asdlolcopyy_003_003_005.bsp"]link[/URL] of the project. Upload data: Dec 30, 2010 it was the worst version, so dont pick up on me that I made this map in 3 weeks and that I lied "There are no bugs go and download this pretty map". Check that version and you will see what progress did I do for 11 months (started to do in the middle of October)
[QUOTE=Jarro;32072927]yes I need [U]all[/U] the bugs.
These selfish sentences were made by very, very self-centered man, do you really want to be like this man? I hope no. I also hope you dont think that I will delete the map and will sit down and cry, really.
I will cut the bugs off with this stupid Overflow error
6. Areas of overpass have no textures
sorry can you screenshot all the level ? It seems that the picture I see isnt like your in the game. :(
16.That is spectator's challenge lol.
Spectator gets a melon and moves it to the end through the rotating stuff when the round is going too boring.
[/QUOTE]
6. On spawn, move under the overpass, look up. There are large rectangles where the model hasn't been capped. These areas need to be covered with brushes, or else people can see straight though. (edit: seems to be odd reflections going on, not capping issues. The reflections don't match up to what they can see)
16. At least hide the spectator area. Put it under the map or something. As it is, it looks ugly from the playable area.
I played the map for about half an hour, and i found 18 issues which should be addressed. Never mind the fact that the map isn't very well designed, there were 18 glaring issues that should have been found and fixed. You missed that one of the buildings was floating in mid air. It's a 2 second job to fix, and even less time to find if you are doing a bug sweep.
I'm not trying to demotivate you. I'm trying to make you see that you have to put detail into your map. You can't just make a half arsed map and expect people to love it. I don't care if you are a newbie, i have found issues with games where the dev has been in the industry for years. We all make mistakes. Valve even left an entire floating cliff in half life 2. But does that ruin the map? Not really, because the atmosphere and gameplay outweigh the fact that there is a floating cliff.
Your map doesn't feel like anything. If you want examples of atmosphere, look at hazrds rp_apocalypse. It's not a scary place, but it feels like a devastated city. If you are going for zombie apocalypse, try and capture the feel of Ravenholm.
Also, i'm picking up on this [quote]Hmm I think I didnt notice all the updates.. But it has almost no bugs.[/quote]
To me, that is a challenge. Nothing is bug free. I particularly enjoy the boiling point bug, where you can fall out of the world if you come out of the hospital too quickly. I would like to ask, how long did you spend bug testing the map?
Bug images are being uploaded now. View them on my screenshots page from today (sept 02 2011): [url]http://steamcommunity.com/id/darkironphoenix/screenshots/?tab=all[/url]
You have an awful lot of floating objects, all your generator models were doing it.
The door on the generator room doesn't work properly
There are no door frames or window frames
Some inclines are too steep for someone to move up it.
On descending the one with the fence on it, the fence took 5 hp off.
There are sign decals on the floor in the tunnel, waste of render time.
The tunnel has been badly put together, it looks messy, not ruined.
Odd green glow in generator room with no light source
Pipe end has no cap and so you can see through the model.
Door in residential tunnel does not close
Floors in residential area need to look more natural where they are broken. Look at ep1 in the hospital, nova prospect and areas of ravenholm. Also look at how hazard did his floors in apocalypse and in cod 4, on the chernobyl levels.
Valve pipe model in generator room is the wrong way round. Odd wires connect the generators, might be an idea to use move_rope instead, maybe some env_spark.
I have seen an awful lot of clipping models. Rocks in walls, debris in floors etc.
Most of your crashes make no sense.
The destroyed building appears to have been destroyed by a four foot thick concrete block falling out of a helicopter above.
Destroyed windows don't fit the colour of the plaster walls surrounding it.
Windows in the residential tunnels have not have their texture size changed causing the texture to look cut off.
The buildings connected by the tunnel are made of brick, but the tunnel is made of old wood.
You can see what i mean in the images, i think i have everything.
I said 'almost', just because I knew that I didnt find all the buggy stuff. I found an every bug I could to find though. But if you check all the versions you will see that I deleted 80% of all the bugs.
I dont really think that if something is related to 'zombies' than it will be dark night, scary foggy morning or should have destroyed things at all. I played all these maps but I made sunny morning environment with some destroyed stuff. So what is an atmosphere then if not a weather or solid environment ?
About 6: please post a screenshot, I covered with a solid brush there and there wasnt any buggy open-area. Still do not understand why does it happen :(
Really I dont care about atmosphere - I would be so happy if I have got a normal answer how to cut out the OVERFLOW error !
[QUOTE=Jarro;32073558]I said 'almost', just because I knew that I didnt find all the buggy stuff. I found an every bug I could to find though. But if you check all the versions you will see that I deleted 80% of all the bugs.
I dont really think that if something is related to 'zombies' than it will be dark night, scary foggy morning or should have destroyed things at all. I played all these maps but I made sunny morning environment with some destroyed stuff. So what is an atmosphere then if not a weather or solid environment ?
About 6: please post a screenshot, I covered with a solid brush there and there wasnt any buggy open-area. Still do not understand why does it happen :(
Really I dont care about atmosphere - I would be so happy if I have got a normal answer how to cut out the OVERFLOW error ![/QUOTE]
The entire town is destroyed. Yet it has no feel. It feels stale.
Anything reflective in that area has that same issue. Possibly that area needs cubemaps.
So...here you go, here is the window:
[img]http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/540652347984122286/85ED83E74E2C6C279EE3A31EC5BE7AA52059E2E5/[/img]
And what it should be reflecting:
[img]http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/540652347984123796/49C04013A20A101B3BC3C2A09C597B594D220D41/[/img]
thanks :)
what to add at the entire town to cut off the stale feeling ? Lol
[QUOTE=Jarro;32073746]thanks :)
what to add at the entire town to cut off the stale feeling ? Lol[/QUOTE]
You don't need to add anything. You need to start at one end and sweep across. Bug fix, get rid of unneeded things (like signs on floors, props on ceilings etc), and change things so they look more realistic.
[QUOTE=IronPhoenix;32064148]Downloading it now. I take the comment "almost no bugs" as a challenge.
Btw, that software i mentioned...most of it was games.
-what the christ-
Need any more?[/QUOTE]
My bro, whenever I finish I map I'm gonna send it to you for reality-checking it.
[editline]2nd September 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Jarro;32072927]
[B]TCB[/B] Idk why, but when I'm trying to turn some brushes to world instead of func_brush and when I'm compiling all the level it doesnt reach the end of VIS compile even after 3 hours ! (i didnt try to compile more). So does anyone have any recommends ?
PS this map is made by a newbie. Not 2 days were used to make it. Not 2 weeks. Not 2 months. So it is so important to me to MAKE THIS MAP WITHOUT BUGS AND ERRORS !
Here is the first Deathrun version [URL="http://customiv.googlecode.com/files/asdlolcopyy_003_003_005.bsp"]link[/URL] of the project. Upload data: Dec 30, 2010 it was the worst version, so dont pick up on me that I made this map in 3 weeks and that I lied "There are no bugs go and download this pretty map". Check that version and you will see what progress did I do for 11 months (started to do in the middle of October)[/QUOTE]
Open Task Manager. If vvis or vrad are still running, they've not stopped and your map is still compiling, just be patient.
If the map is taking that long to compile, then consider that the map needs more optimisation work. As an example, look into changing the design so you can only render areas when they are seen by a player.
IronPhoenix hmm I optimized as I could, there are no areas which are being rendered for no use
TCB I know that they arent stopping and are compiling, I just dont know how to reduce the compile time ! 3 Hours its not the 3 minutes :(
[QUOTE=Jarro;32076845]IronPhoenix hmm I optimized as I could, there are no areas which are being rendered for no use
TCB I know that they arent stopping and are compiling, I just dont know how to reduce the compile time ! 3 Hours its not the 3 minutes :([/QUOTE]
Put everything on Fast and use the cordon tool when testing.
For the final compile, that will be released, just be patient and wait.
[QUOTE=Jarro;32076845]IronPhoenix hmm I optimized as I could, there are no areas which are being rendered for no use
TCB I know that they arent stopping and are compiling, I just dont know how to reduce the compile time ! 3 Hours its not the 3 minutes :([/QUOTE]
Really? I'll run it through vmex and take a look at what you have done.
Cancel that, looks like it has decompile protection on. I doubt you have done much though, as none of the doors are shut.
yeah I opened all the doors to make the people see their routes.
Does it hurt the optimization ?
[QUOTE=Jarro;32080729]yeah I opened all the doors to make the people see their routes.
Does it hurt the optimization ?[/QUOTE]
It means you probably aren't using any kind of area portal, which means that all the rooms are being rendered even if the player cannot see them.
Why can't you let the players find their own routes?
[QUOTE=IronPhoenix;32087886]It means you probably aren't using any kind of area portal, which means that all the rooms are being rendered even if the player cannot see them.
Why can't you let the players find their own routes?[/QUOTE]
Holding the hand of the player.
Big mistake in game development.
wait, I opened ALL the doors, not locked the half of the doors and opened the another half ! Why am I holding then ? I just opened it so players at the start can see what the way is better for them, did I draw a red/green line with the text "come to me through this door and only, there is a profit"
[QUOTE=Jarro;32092373]wait, I opened ALL the doors, not locked the half of the doors and opened the another half ! Why am I holding then ? I just opened it so players at the start can see what the way is better for them, did I draw a red/green line with the text "come to me through this door and only, there is a profit"[/QUOTE]
Take Deus Ex as an example. You can take the rooftops, the sewers, or the front door. Although the routes are there for you to use, the player isn't made aware of any bar the front door, without further exploration. You should be able to reward the player with different routes if they explore and scout. Some of that you kind of did with the hole in the road tunnel, but my qualm with that was that the whole area looked messy.
Imagine yourself in the situation of the player. This is a tool i use for my stuff. You are airdropped on to an overpass. The wind blows through an empty town, stirring up dust and debris. You can see an obvious path through the middle from your vantage point, but maybe when you get down, you will find a loose vent that will take you into a building, or a sewer entrance partially hidden behind the wreck of a burnt out car.
I think people's main issue with it is the amount of bugs you left in. Now i'm a games tester with five years of experience under my belt, but the bugs that were left in were very obvious. Just play through the map as a user and as a tester. The first will notice things like the oddly placed signs or the clipping, the second will deal with the z-fighting and the harder to see floating objects.
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