[QUOTE=wallworm;40524375]That you do not use Blender for Unity or Max for Source is your prerogative. There is nothing wrong with anyone using their choice of level builder. What works best for you is all you need.
At the same time, I am devoted to dispelling a couple notions: 1) the [I]incorrect fact[/I] that you have to use Hammer for Source level design and 2) the [I]opinion[/I] that you should only use Hammer.
[I]I[/I] prefer [URL="http://dev.wallworm.com/"]Max for Source[/URL] because I can generate every single kind of art asset inside the environment all at once: BSP geometry, Materials, Textures, Models, RAD FILES from the scene materials with illumination, RES files with all scene assets, dummy soundscape files from scene entities, AUTOMATICALLY PAK the assets into the BSP at export time, and more. Essentially, I've been working on ways to make level design easier and more efficient inside Max with almost every kind of file you need being handled by integrated tools.
You may continue to use whatever design app you wish. But for those who do want something more robust and integrated for Source, don't assume there is no alternative.
And on the topic of this thread again, the Max UI is 99.9% customizable. You could, should you prefer, make a Hammer-like workspace and from there add/delete at your whim.[/QUOTE]
Also, if you want to throw in that Max isn't free (unless you are able to use the student version) plus it doesn't work with source out of the box. Some people just want to download an editor and use it, not faff around with tweaks. Also, i highly doubt unity would make source maps...especially as its for a much newer and powerful engine.
[QUOTE=wallworm;40520668]Hammer is to level design and game what Notepad is to web development.[/QUOTE]
There is so much wrong with this sentence. Hammer isn't [I]just[/I] an editor; it's a development environment tailored specifically for Source, and it doesn't rely on any additional, third-party software to turn the map from a manipulable format (that, by the way, contains almost everything you need) to a BSP for your game.
Now can we please go back on topic?
I didn't expect this much conversation, but it's great! If you have any more suggestions, keep posting them.
Alright, I'll get rid of the manifests tab and see how that works. And I had no idea that 3dsmax could even be used for Source, but the more you know, right?
[editline]4th May 2013[/editline]
And if you really really really want uncluttered (but really confusing for someone used to Hammer) there's always Microbrush.
[QUOTE=IronPhoenix;40524807]Also, if you want to throw in that Max isn't free (unless you are able to use the student version) plus it doesn't work with source out of the box. Some people just want to download an editor and use it, not faff around with tweaks.[/QUOTE]
True. But not everyone knows that you can use Max for Source with a free plugin (as is obvious from the above post by cardboardtheory). And Autodesk gives away the free student license to about anyone.
[QUOTE=Anthracite;40524390]We're talking about hammer, not 3dsmax. stop derailing with this or make your own thread thanks[/QUOTE]
I am participating in a discussion about Hammer and Max in the context level design for Source. How that derails is beyond me.
[QUOTE=Mozartkugeln;40525008]There is so much wrong with this sentence. Hammer isn't [I]just[/I] an editor; it's a development environment tailored specifically for Source, and it doesn't rely on any additional, third-party software to turn the map from a manipulable format (that, by the way, contains almost everything you need) to a BSP for your game.
Now can we please go back on topic?[/QUOTE]
Hammer certainly is an environment. But you cannot create many of the art specific assets in Hammer that you need for a map. So it is a very limited development environment. You cannot create anything in Hammer except for the BSP and entity properties. For example, you cannot create your materials in place in Hammer (you need to open a bitmap editor AND text editor to create the textures + materials). You cannot create the models you need to populate your map (you need a 3d modeling program like Blender, 3ds Max, Maya, etc). Etc, etc. So this is why I personally see Hammer as a limited environment.
As for staying on topic, I really don't understand how you can get upset about a meandering discussion about Hammer UI and an alternative system.
[QUOTE=cardboardtheory;40525940]I didn't expect this much conversation, but it's great! If you have any more suggestions, keep posting them.
Alright, I'll get rid of the manifests tab and see how that works. And I had no idea that 3dsmax could even be used for Source, but the more you know, right?
[editline]4th May 2013[/editline]
And if you really really really want uncluttered (but really confusing for someone used to Hammer) there's always Microbrush.[/QUOTE]
Glad to have shared some info. I jumped in on this thread because the thread title interested me as I'm often gathering input/views about the various editors. When I first started using Worldcraft (over a decade ago) I really wanted a different UI and editor. Now that editor is called Hammer, and it is almost the same editor it was back then... offering very few new tools. Back then I only wished to be able to use Max to build for HL1 and then Source. Eventually I built Wall Worm.
Anyway, for those who enjoy Max and its UI, realize it is an alternative for Source BSP. For those who don't, enjoy Hammer... and of course continue on discussing about all the ways you can go about optimizing the Hammer UI.
You can do more intricate work with propper and func_detail, but it is a limited engine. It has suffered by staying how it is, it has got to the point where the engine and the editors cannot handle new features without a serious bodge. The particle engine is just screwed on the end somewhere.
However, for a new user, using a modeller for map editing is not the answer. Hell, i don't even recommend they try and make a custom game for mapping in gmod because it throws up problems.
Hammer editor works fine out of the box, if all you want to do is learn how to use it. At that level you aren't going to be worried that you can't add a london bus to the road, or a custom texture to a wall.
I agree that source is getting out of the loop, but I'm hoping that the new engine will be moddable as well. Thanks for your input all.
[QUOTE=youthedog;40522226]Do you mind expanding on this? How to maybe?[/QUOTE]
Get a resource editor and edit hammer_dll.dll? There are several available, I use XN Resource Editor, but there are others.
[QUOTE=Mozartkugeln;40525008]Hammer isn't [I]just[/I] an editor; it's a development environment tailored specifically for Source, and it doesn't rely on any additional, third-party software to turn the map from a manipulable format (that, by the way, contains almost everything you need) to a BSP for your game.[/QUOTE]
Things necessary/common to the Source engine that cannot be achieved in hammer:
Model creation
Model animation
Material/texture creation/editing
2D skybox creation (i.e. high res environmental cubemapping)
Particle system editing
Soundscape creation/audio editing
Real-time rendering
And probably a bunch of other stuff I can't think of atm...
As for "third-party software" I challange you to find just ONE experienced mapper who doesnt regularily use VTFedit, GCFscape, Pakrats, BSPSource, SMD exporters and many others.
I love Source engine and Hammer, but I am also VERY aware that it could be made far more comprehensive - there are A LOT of things that cannot be done directly in hammer that could added be and would make life easier. If you look at editors for more recent engines like U3, Unity or Cry they resemble things like 3dsMax or Maya much more than they do Hammer.
Hammer is outdated, even valve admit that... in the end all Hammer does is create a text file that is then run through 3 compilers, you could make a source map in notepad if you had the patience. The point is that hammer is just one way to create the text document, but it's not the only way and any interface system that lets you create the same kind of document for compiling is just a valid. Concerning"optimisation" (which somebody mentioned) - the outputted map is only ever going to be as optimized as your skills/understand of the bsp system allow, nothing to do with the editor being used to create the map, and in any other context the interface that lets you make maps in the quickest time with the least number of headaches is by definition the most "optimized"!
Imagine how great it would be to simply be able to make textures/materials in hammer... to be able to open an image, apply it to surfaces then edit/paint on it overlay stuff or whatever, before finally exporting it as a vtf to your game folders with all the correct material parameters!
It's pretty cool that your first post is a response to something I wrote, and I appreciate that.
Now, in response to what you said: You're right on all accounts. However, I never argued that third-party software isn't needed to develop a map [I]in the full sense of the word[/I] — just that it isn't necessary to create, compile and run the simplest of maps. This, indeed, is the main thing that concerns beginners, hence why Hammer will always be a better choice over tools like that 3ds Max plug-in for people who are looking to get into level design for Source.
There's many ways to make your userinteface clean and tidy.
You could simply learn the shortcut keys to the tools and you can close them down.
[QUOTE=Skibur;40561566]There's many ways to make your userinteface clean and tidy.
You could simply learn the shortcut keys to the tools and you can close them down.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, Stinger21 did that a few posts ago, and it looked quite nice. Embedding the image since he didn't do it:
[T]http://i.imgur.com/zeOrHj5.png[/T]
[QUOTE=Mozartkugeln;40562095]Yeah, Stinger21 did that a few posts ago, and it looked quite nice. Embedding the image since he didn't do it:
[T]http://i.imgur.com/zeOrHj5.png[/T][/QUOTE]
That's pretty damn sleek. Would it be possible to download it anywhere?
If you mean the black theme, I'm pretty sure that's a Windows theme and not something that's specific to Hammer.
It's a variation of the [URL="http://solmiler.deviantart.com/art/Placebo-for-Windows-7-188414149"]Placebo theme for Windows 7[/URL].
Haha, on the topic of minimalist black skins:
[URL="http://kiko11.deviantart.com/art/Tapek-259990030"]Tapek[/URL] is also a good option. Windows customization is pretty fun, if not frustrating at first.
yes, I use Placebo Ashtray because of how well it fits with the new "white-on-black" style everyone seems to be going for lately.
[thumb]http://i.imgur.com/XWylCFw.jpg[/thumb]
[Quote="http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=faq"]
"I've chosen a black background for most of my text because it's easier on the eyes than staring at a white screen. Think about it: your monitor is not a piece of paper, no matter how hard you try to make it one. Staring at a white background while you read is like staring at a light bulb"[/quote]
Maya, Photoshop and I'd assume 3DS max will soon all be Assimilated into the far superior White-On-Black color style!
Meh, I really don't like the gradients, I'm more one for solid colors etc...but Placebo is really nice, looks great. Anyways, I guess that's making your entire interface cleaner haha
[QUOTE=Stinger21;40586030]Maya, Photoshop and I'd assume 3DS max will soon all be Assimilated into the far superior White-On-Black color style![/QUOTE]
Max already uses white-on-black and has been using it for several years now.
[QUOTE=danharibo;40483444]Hammer really should just be re-written, it does all the wrong things.[/QUOTE]
Hopefully with the next Source Engine we'll get an editor that's of the same quality as something like SFM.
[editline]13th May 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Stinger21;40586030]yes, I use Placebo Ashtray because of how well it fits with the new "white-on-black" style everyone seems to be going for lately.
[thumb]http://i.imgur.com/XWylCFw.jpg[/thumb]
Maya, Photoshop and I'd assume 3DS max will soon all be Assimilated into the far superior White-On-Black color style![/QUOTE]
It's easy on the eyes, especially if you're tired/working in the dark.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.
