• The survival part of the game is bad on a fundamental level.
    52 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Arkantos;36439289]Reading that thread made me see how bad Minecraft vanilla is, and how good it could be. So many damn things that could be, or should be added, but no.[/QUOTE] I'm kind of [I]glad[/I] vanilla Minecraft is so plain, actually. The early beta version of Minecraft was a solid base that modders greatly expanded upon in a wide variety of ways. Most of Mojang's attempts to expand upon that base have been poorly thought out and not very useful by comparison. A lot of Mojang's more recent stuff seems like useless clutter that you can't get rid of and doesn't fit together with the rest of the game. Jeb doesn't seem any better at avoiding this than Notch did, despite his vastly superior work ethic. All the mods that ended up in an official Minecraft release did so missing some of the features the mods they were based off of had, I don't understand how that even happens! The one thing they could do is add to the things that are so useless that even the modders don't don't know what to do with them, but they hardly ever do that. There's so much focus an what [I]aren't[/I] already there that the things that [I]are[/I] often get left untouched.
[QUOTE=Vasey105;36446971] No, it doesn't. It's really not that hard to figure out how to craft most things, I mean, a torch, a stick with a piece of coal on top.[/QUOTE] Imagine you were someone who just picked up the game with no idea on how to play it. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't guess most the crafting recipes. The game almost forces you to look up wiki pages or have good knowledge of the game before doing anything. Games should be able to be picked up and played quickly without having to do research about it. At least that is how I see it.
[QUOTE=Aredbomb;36447459]I'm kind of [I]glad[/I] vanilla Minecraft is so plain, actually. The early beta version of Minecraft was a solid base that modders greatly expanded upon in a wide variety of ways. Most of Mojang's attempts to expand upon that base have been poorly thought out and not very useful by comparison. A lot of Mojang's more recent stuff seems like useless clutter that you can't get rid of and doesn't fit together with the rest of the game. Jeb doesn't seem any better at avoiding this than Notch did, despite his vastly superior work ethic. All the mods that ended up in an official Minecraft release did so missing some of the features the mods they were based off of had, I don't understand how that even happens! The one thing they could do is add to the things that are so useless that even the modders don't don't know what to do with them, but they hardly ever do that. There's so much focus an what [I]aren't[/I] already there that the things that [I]are[/I] often get left untouched.[/QUOTE] As someone who has spent time modding Minecraft, it's an awful base to start off with. The code is messy as hell and incredibly poorly done. When Minecraft gets an API similar to, for instance, Garry's Mod, that will be acceptable, but for now it's not. Currently, modding a server is a hell of a lot of work, and your playerbase will have to be redirected to a place they can get the mod files from. If they can get it working like they say they are, with servers that could download the mods' files to the user and only have those files on that server, then I'll be happy with what Minecraft is.
Hes right about the crafting recipes. A whole lot are senseless. Like shears, its just two pieces of iron which makes no sense, you can even see on its icon that there's more to it than just iron. Or Fencegates, TNT, maps, pistons, redstone lamps, cakes, or brewing recipes. Minecraft is about experimentation, and that should still be a factor. If you didn't know how to make a crafting bench, four wood in your inventory crafting slot is going to come across your mind eventually. But this isn't the case every time.
[QUOTE=JCDentonUNATCO;36449201]Hes right about the crafting recipes. A whole lot are senseless. Like shears, its just two pieces of iron which makes no sense, you can even see on its icon that there's more to it than just iron. Or Fencegates, TNT, maps, pistons, redstone lamps, cakes, or brewing recipes. Minecraft is about experimentation, and that should still be a factor. If you didn't know how to make a crafting bench, four wood in your inventory crafting slot is going to come across your mind eventually. But this isn't the case every time.[/QUOTE] Besides, if you don't use the wiki, you likely won't know 90% of the items exist. He's right, there should be a book that shows every item that you can make, but not the recipe. Or maybe some Encyclopedia option in the pause menu? [editline]23rd June 2012[/editline] Just read all of it. At first when I read the Facepunch OP, I thought it would be some stupid rant, then when I read the Minecraft Forum post, it was a well thought out, articulate, and great criticism of the game. I would love for all of these things to happen. (Except for the tall trees, because I would hate to cut those down)
[QUOTE=ManningQB18;36450771]Besides, if you don't use the wiki, you likely won't know 90% of the items exist. He's right, there should be a book that shows every item that you can make, but not the recipe. Or maybe some Encyclopedia option in the pause menu? [editline]23rd June 2012[/editline] Just read all of it. At first when I read the Facepunch OP, I thought it would be some stupid rant, then when I read the Minecraft Forum post, it was a well thought out, articulate, and great criticism of the game. I would love for all of these things to happen. (Except for the tall trees, because I would hate to cut those down)[/QUOTE] Simple, just have trees fall over when you chop them. [editline]22nd June 2012[/editline] The only reasons log continue floating is because Notch was lazy, it was never meant to be a feature.
What about a recipe book that lists all the items, a brief description of the item and just the number of each element involved (or even less, just which elements are involved). That way, there is still experimentation as far as how to arrange the elements (or for the latter, how much of each and how to arrange). Ideas?
[QUOTE=DoctorSalt;36451144]What about a recipe book that lists all the items, a brief description of the item and just the number of each element involved (or even less, just which elements are involved). That way, there is still experimentation as far as how to arrange the elements (or for the latter, how much of each and how to arrange). Ideas?[/QUOTE] The fun in Minecraft isn't in finding out how to make things using their recipes. I've heard a lot of opposing opinions on what people enjoy about Minecraft, but frustratingly trying to figure recipes out on the first go has never been one. I think when people list "no Wiki reliance" as a goal for MC, I think they really just (at least deep down) want a game that is difficult, with unique and rewarding gameplay and items. Like I said, having to figure out recipes won't add to the sense of wonder or reward, making those items difficult (and the game in general) to get will make it much more rewarding.
I like how he pulled the 'true gamers' card near the end followed by needless obscenities. This guy needs to realize that Minecraft's target audience isn't 'Mr. Man McMasochist'. He does make a few good points, but he seems to be the typical 'Remove player choice because I have no self-control.' guy.
[QUOTE=Zanfall;36451214]I like how he pulled the 'true gamers' card near the end followed by needless obscenities. This guy needs to realize that Minecraft's target audience isn't 'Mr. Man McMasochist'. He does make a few good points, but he seems to be the typical 'Remove player choice because I have no self-control.' guy.[/QUOTE] The few aspects that he suggested to remove self control are flawed, yes, but honestly, I still see how some of those aspects are still noteworthy. For instance, Hardcore becomes even more difficult when you realize there is no way to change difficulty. I also don't think he's trying to be "masochistic" just because he thinks Minecraft is too easy. To be honest, it is. It's piss easy. There's literally no challenge whatsoever to the gametype that is called "Survival". I don't think it's masochistic to want mobs to be intelligent and a "Survival" gamemode to actually be difficult, and not just creative that takes a bit more time.
I agree with the idea that the game was not well planned out. It was made ad-hoc, throwing features onto the pile, caring only to test a few things before cobbling more stuff together.
[QUOTE=Theportalmaster;36448321]Imagine you were someone who just picked up the game with no idea on how to play it. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't guess most the crafting recipes. The game almost forces you to look up wiki pages or have good knowledge of the game before doing anything. Games should be able to be picked up and played quickly without having to do research about it. At least that is how I see it.[/QUOTE] Hm, yes I do see what you mean. All you need to know though, is that simple things, such as shovels and pick-axes are crafted in their general shape. Where as things like enchantment tables, pistons etc. are hard to pick-up the recipe for and you do need some guidance for them.
For the recipe book idea, what I'd do is make an encyclopaedia which shows any item you've discovered thus far (drop an item in a little 'search' slot to select that item without having to go through a list of items) and when an item is selected, shows the recipe to create that item as well as all recipes using that item that you have found every component of. So if you found coal, you could check the encyclopaedia and since you've logically already discovered sticks it would show you how to make Torches. As for difficulty selectable in-game, it makes perfect sense to remove it from the options menu in Survival mode. Yes, it's a case of self control in how it can ruin the gameplay, but it also means that if you have one world you want to play on Hard and one on Peaceful for Creative, you have to keep swapping in the options menu. The difficulty is one of the things that defines how the game will play out (or would be if it was anything other than a damage scale) and should be with other options that define this - world generation and gamemode. I'm all for the world being mutable but the actual core mechanics of things other than the player within the game should not be. Combine those two changes and only make the encyclopaedia available on Peaceful/Easy, for a limited set of items on Normal (tools, basic crafting apparatuses like benches/furnaces and decorative or basic blocks) and unavailable on Hard entirely. And then there's the Nether and The End - The End is only vaguely hinted at existing and the Nether is not mentioned at all in-game, and the Nether is pretty much literally half of the entire game. Under what circumstances is a player who does not know of the Nether going to make a 4x5 square of Obsidian and set fire to it? You're implying an expectation for the player to naturally act like an insane cultist. Some form of guidance, like broken or non-functioning (and very rarely, functioning) nether portals occurring naturally down near lava with cultists spawning near them who drop flint and steel/obsidian, would make a player tangentially aware of some connection between this [b]obsidian formation[/b] and [b]flint and steel[/b] (and possibly also of it being dangerous) allowing them to perhaps discover the connection. After a player makes a functioning nether portal and explores the nether for a while, start Endermen spawning in the world. When a player acquires an Ender Pearl, next time they sleep show a short first person cutscene or something of an end portal, making them aware that end portals exist. It's soft guidance (if anything I'd say the cutscene is a little heavy-handed) through the world, by cues from the world.
[QUOTE=Weiss;36453082] Under what circumstances is a player who does not know of the Nether going to make a 4x5 square of Obsidian and set fire to it?[/QUOTE] It would be good to see some sort of old, abandoned temple that somehow depicts how to make a portal on a wall of some sort. [QUOTE]When a player acquires an Ender Pearl, next time they sleep show a short first person cutscene or something of an end portal, making them aware that end portals exist. It's soft guidance (if anything I'd say the cutscene is a little heavy-handed) through the world, by cues from the world.[/QUOTE] A dream, you mean?
I actually would like to see most of the stuff he brings up. I really feel like minecraft isn't the game it could and should be right now.
[QUOTE=Weiss;36453082]For the recipe book idea, what I'd do is make an encyclopaedia which shows any item you've discovered thus far (drop an item in a little 'search' slot to select that item without having to go through a list of items) and when an item is selected, shows the recipe to create that item as well as all recipes using that item that you have found every component of. So if you found coal, you could check the encyclopaedia and since you've logically already discovered sticks it would show you how to make Torches. As for difficulty selectable in-game, it makes perfect sense to remove it from the options menu in Survival mode. Yes, it's a case of self control in how it can ruin the gameplay, but it also means that if you have one world you want to play on Hard and one on Peaceful for Creative, you have to keep swapping in the options menu. The difficulty is one of the things that defines how the game will play out (or would be if it was anything other than a damage scale) and should be with other options that define this - world generation and gamemode. I'm all for the world being mutable but the actual core mechanics of things other than the player within the game should not be. Combine those two changes and only make the encyclopaedia available on Peaceful/Easy, for a limited set of items on Normal (tools, basic crafting apparatuses like benches/furnaces and decorative or basic blocks) and unavailable on Hard entirely. And then there's the Nether and The End - The End is only vaguely hinted at existing and the Nether is not mentioned at all in-game, and the Nether is pretty much literally half of the entire game. Under what circumstances is a player who does not know of the Nether going to make a 4x5 square of Obsidian and set fire to it? You're implying an expectation for the player to naturally act like an insane cultist. Some form of guidance, like broken or non-functioning (and very rarely, functioning) nether portals occurring naturally down near lava with cultists spawning near them who drop flint and steel/obsidian, would make a player tangentially aware of some connection between this [b]obsidian formation[/b] and [b]flint and steel[/b] (and possibly also of it being dangerous) allowing them to perhaps discover the connection. After a player makes a functioning nether portal and explores the nether for a while, start Endermen spawning in the world. When a player acquires an Ender Pearl, next time they sleep show a short first person cutscene or something of an end portal, making them aware that end portals exist. It's soft guidance (if anything I'd say the cutscene is a little heavy-handed) through the world, by cues from the world.[/QUOTE] All of this would have been good, in terms of the Nether and End implementation (the encyclopedia and lack of survival difficulty change should be added anyway) except for the fact that everyone and their mothers play Minecraft now. You'll be hardpressed to find people who are willing to but haven't already, and that number is not the vast majority. Most of the people who play it now are the ones that will continue playing it, and with the sheer number of players, I doubt there would be many new ones anytime soon. Thus, trying to implement the Nether and End information is useless because everyone will already know how to get there and know how to make Nether portals. Anyone willing to get MC will have already seen videos, and have already seen the Nether in some way. The game needs to be difficult on a fundamental level, not on a gimmicky level like "cutscenes". It needs a challenge based in harder mobs, more difficult survival, more complex gameplay mechanics, not in trying to make the End and Nether "mysterious" to the people who already play the game and know what they are. Making bread should require you to grind the wheat into flour, ferment some flour in a cauldron to get yeast, gather both and mix the flour and yeast into dough and then cook the dough in the furnace. That's how complex everything in Minecraft needs to be if there is going to be a challenge involved in Minecraft. At this point, everyone is suggesting the only way to make the game harder is to hide recipes and remove the Wiki, when that only makes it harder to [b]new players[/b] and not the huge and already existent playerbase.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;36452299]I agree with the idea that the game was not well planned out. It was made ad-hoc, throwing features onto the pile, caring only to test a few things before cobbling more stuff together.[/QUOTE] It was like this after a point. Aside from Notch's sloppy coding, before mid-beta everything (except the Nether) fit together pretty nicely. Afterwards it was very much like you said. Notch didn't seem to want to work on Minecraft anymore by this point and probably didn't really care what the final product looked like, and Jeb genuinely doesn't seem to know what he wants the game to be so he just adds whatever he can code.
I really wanted to give this list a chance, I really did - but the very first point raised is incorrect. Minecraft used to be heavily reliant on a wiki, and of course if you use mods then it still is, but the achievements were added to Minecraft specifically to tackle this very issue. Where applicable, they even state what resources will be required to a degree. They don't spell out everything, but that's because Minecraft as it is now is intended to be discovered with new players - they're expected to experiment, find what works and doesn't for themselves, with achievements being helpful guides to keep them on the right path. And after all, if they then want the answers anyway/eventually, well that wiki hasn't gone anywhere. Skimming through, it looks like I'd have similar fundamental issues with practically every point, which is a shame. Hopefully some truly good ideas can come of this thread.
[QUOTE=Vasey105;36446971]I really don't get half of the things he's saying here, for example: No, it doesn't. It's really not that hard to figure out how to craft most things, I mean, a torch, a stick with a piece of coal on top. That would just ruin it in my opinion, it doesn't need any sort of tutorial, you can pretty much figure everything out for yourself. Quite frankly, I agree that the difficulty may need some improvements. Well, what else do you expect? All the other things he listed are basically the same as the other tools just aesthetically different. Of course, with the utmost carefulness, the whole grabbing ideacould be a good feature (I believe there's already a mod that features this) The only thing I don't like is the whole enchantment and potions thing, but it's an interesting feature. Steve looks fine, get a different skin if you really [B]don't[/B] like him. Trees could be taller, and in the picture he showed: [IMG]http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/5919/20120602173240.png[/IMG] They do actually look a lot better, although, it''s [B]very[/B] awkward chopping them down at that height. No, that'd be stupid. Of course though, that's all just my opinion.[/QUOTE] Add some sort of physics to trees. eg. Cut out part of a tree, the rest of it falls over; it could tumble down hills and fall off cliffs, eventually it reaches horizontal(ish) terrain and snaps back to being regular blocks. It would make all kinds of trees way less painful to cut down. [editline]23rd June 2012[/editline] This guy is complaining too much. It doesn't really matter how many good points he has, or how many people agree/disagree with him; if he really wants to see changes, he should actually be doing it in the form of media (and sending that media to Mojang). Pistons didn't get into the game because they were a big wall of text on a forum, they got into the game because they were thrown around in a lot of media. They were a small, but significant change. Right now, he's suggesting Mojang just redo everything they've ever done. That's a tall order if I ever saw one.
[QUOTE=ZestyLemons;36463168]Add some sort of physics to trees. eg. Cut out part of a tree, the rest of it falls over; it could tumble down hills and fall off cliffs, eventually it reaches horizontal(ish) terrain and snaps back to being regular blocks. It would make all kinds of trees way less painful to cut down.[/QUOTE] That sounds like it would be way too sloppy IMO. I was imagining more of a gravel/sand type effect where the base of the tree falls downwards.
[QUOTE=Agent Fedora;36463642]That sounds like it would be way too sloppy IMO. I was imagining more of a gravel/sand type effect where the base of the tree falls downwards.[/QUOTE] Yeah, just make logs an unsupported block.
[QUOTE=MeltingData;36463813]Yeah, just make logs an unsupported block.[/QUOTE] Naturally generated logs only, though.
[QUOTE=a-k-t-w;36435223]he's kinda right, dig a hole in the ground and youre safe from mobs forever. and having to rely on the wiki because the game doesn't explain anything is retarded.[/QUOTE] I've been waiting for-goddamn-ever for a mob that had basic building skills, so it could at least break into houses and camps and what not. I was excited for Endermen, but it turned out they weren't so hard to avoid. Zombies breaking down doors is great, but it's still easy to avoid.
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