• Why the tech of the Halo Universe is a step backward.
    1,885 replies, posted
[QUOTE=ChosenOne54;27246384]Um, except ODST armour doesn't have regenerating shields nearly as strong, they don't protect from fall damage, and they don't automatically heal health.[/QUOTE] You realise the MJOLNIR armour has its own dedicated, microfusion plant stuck on the back of it, right? My guess is: that shit ain't very light. Probably not something most people could carry.
[QUOTE=CaF;27242953] I don't see any of this in halo. [b]where is it![/b][/QUOTE] Rhino, that is all. But there is a lack in a lot of types of vehicles, we are yet to see an APC or IFV type vehicle. Doesnt mean to say one doesnt exist in the canon.
[QUOTE=archangel125;27160345] 1. Covenant projectiles are very, very visible, and travel much more slowly than bullets (for the most part). This would allow human troops to pinpoint the location of enemy forces almost instantly and call in artillery support. [U]Thread on Bungie Forums: [B][url=http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=54861637]Here.[/url][/B] Just wait for the 'troll' accusations and righteous indignation.[/U] [/QUOTE] You going by how fast those projectiles move ingame or in the clips? Because they move a hell of a lot faster in the short movies/commercials than in game. Also I find it a little ridiculous to assume artillery would be called every time covenant weapons fire is spotted. Also, what about drop pods? It would be a little difficult to fend off a bunch of armored, energy shielded, elites if they dropped right in the middle of your command center. Not to mention if they did that in a city, troops having FLIR gear wouldn't really be much of an advantage unless they caught the covenant completely unaware, which would be difficult because they have motion sensors. This discounts the gameplay element of moving really slowly to avoid it, of course. If they have energy weapons and spacecraft it is reasonable to assume they have motion sensing equipment sensitive enough to detect someone crawling around behind them. Also, you seem to contradict yourself. How would the ability to strike from anywhere in orbit not be an advantage in winning a ground war? It's like saying artillery would be even more useless. You're taking a lopsided approach to this argument. If we use the Legendary standards from all games, you would note that both 5.56mm and 7.62mm, and even 12.7mm rounds have a difficult time of getting through the shielding of one covenant elite. Even when that happens, it takes a few more to get through the armor and kill them. Hell, it even takes two torso shots from the Halo sniper, an anti-material rifle to kill one In addition, you have to deal with their incredibly zealous, borderline insane devotion to the great journey, and you have enemies one and a half times the size of an average human willing to charge into the fray without a second thought. Their weapons fire may be visible, yeah but what are you going to do about it? Call artillery on every enemy squad you see? That's fine if it's still exists an hasn't been melted by a plasma bomb or whatever from orbit. It's like some Space Marine chapter's brightly colored armor- you see it from a mile away, but that isn't going to help you when it's nearly unstoppable up close. I will agree with your thinking with covenant vehicles though with the exception of perhaps the seraph and the banchee.
What I want to know is, do the humanity have other planetary defence systems other than the MAC's, minefields and ICBM on the planet? Do they have MAC platforms on the ground? Terribly interested, because in Halo Reach one of the corvettes were hit by something loud and something that sounded like one of those SMAC stations in space. And the lights around you bickered everytime whatever shot at the corvette
[QUOTE=Framperton;27258618]You going by how fast those projectiles move ingame or in the clips? Because they move a hell of a lot faster in the short movies/commercials than in game. Also I find it a little ridiculous to assume artillery would be called every time covenant weapons fire is spotted. [/QUOTE] It wouldn't. They would simply send tanks and infantry to take care of it. I really can't see grunts giving modern day soldiers much of a challenge. Most Covenant squads are made up of mostly grunts, with one or two elites. The grunts would be mowed down in seconds, and the large elites would be cannon fodder to the tanks. [QUOTE]Also, what about drop pods? It would be a little difficult to fend off a bunch of armored, energy shielded, elites if they dropped right in the middle of your command center. [/QUOTE] Well there are, you know, anti-air missiles and stuff. [QUOTE] If we use the Legendary standards from all games, you would note that both 5.56mm and 7.62mm, and even 12.7mm rounds have a difficult time of getting through the shielding of one covenant elite. Even when that happens, it takes a few more to get through the armor and kill them. [/QUOTE] Have you seen the amount of firepower a squad of soldiers can put out? The Elite would be toast, if the squad is well-organised. It doesn't matter how strong your armour is; if you are being peppered by all directions, you will go down fast, energy shields or not. [QUOTE]Hell, it even takes two torso shots from the Halo sniper, an anti-material rifle to kill one [/QUOTE] Anti-material rifle? You mean like the Barrett .50 cal? Two shots really isn't much, especially when you have a squad backing you up. [QUOTE] willing to charge into the fray without a second thought. [/QUOTE] And subsequently get shot at every angle, and blown apart. [QUOTE]I will agree with your thinking with covenant vehicles though with the exception of perhaps the seraph and the banchee.[/QUOTE] The Banshee would be severely outclassed by modern-day fighter jets. I can't see the seraph giving much trouble either.
[QUOTE=ChosenOne54;27259346]It wouldn't. They would simply send tanks and infantry to take care of it. I really can't see grunts giving modern day soldiers much of a challenge. Most Covenant squads are made up of mostly grunts, with one or two elites. The grunts would be mowed down in seconds, and the large elites would be cannon fodder to the tanks. Well there are, you know, anti-air missiles and stuff. Have you seen the amount of firepower a squad of soldiers can put out? The Elite would be toast, if the squad is well-organised. It doesn't matter how strong your armour is; if you are being peppered by all directions, you will go down fast, energy shields or not. Anti-material rifle? You mean like the Barrett .50 cal? Two shots really isn't much, especially when you have a squad backing you up. And subsequently get shot at every angle, and blown apart. The Banshee would be severely outclassed by modern-day fighter jets. I can't see the seraph giving much trouble either.[/QUOTE] I dont think an anti air missle would be able to hit something not only that small but falling that fast on entry into the atmosphere. Elites dont work alone they have their cannon fodder grunts to take the bullets for them while they make precise shots, sure alone he will probably die to a squad but not without at least of of your guys dying, His shields would hold up long enough to kill at least one of you. Banshees aren't supposed to be like fighter jets we dont really have a counter part to them because they are so strange, they play the role of an attack helicopter but hang around the battle rather than there to just provide support. There are major flaws with the covenant tech but its just so the game is actually playable, I mean if the covenant were smart and their vehicles much superior then the game would be to hard to complete. I think the covenant just suck at ground battles in general, I mean before the hunters joined the hunters kicked their arse in every ground battle they had, only when the covenant threatened to glass them from space they surrendered.
[QUOTE=P1X3L N1NJA;27261386]I dont think an anti air missle would be able to hit something not only that small but falling that fast on entry into the atmosphere.[/QUOTE] You'd be in for a surprise then.
[QUOTE=RayvenQ;27254120]You really need to get a better argument than "hurr derp you haven't read the book or if you have and don't hate it as much as me you must be stupid." As a matter of fact, I have read the book, so go on, bring up one particular part in the book that you think is silly and explain why you think it is silly then.[/QUOTE] There isn't anything to explain if you didn't get it because in the book it's as clear cut as it possibly can be. I'm sorry you're a moron.
Really smart to call a Moderator a moron when you're edging trolling by having your argument consist entirely of "I'm right, if you can't agree with me you're a moron"
[QUOTE=ChosenOne54;27259346]It wouldn't. They would simply send tanks and infantry to take care of it. I really can't see grunts giving modern day soldiers much of a challenge. Most Covenant squads are made up of mostly grunts, with one or two elites. The grunts would be mowed down in seconds, and the large elites would be cannon fodder to the tanks. Well there are, you know, anti-air missiles and stuff. Have you seen the amount of firepower a squad of soldiers can put out? The Elite would be toast, if the squad is well-organised. It doesn't matter how strong your armour is; if you are being peppered by all directions, you will go down fast, energy shields or not. Anti-material rifle? You mean like the Barrett .50 cal? Two shots really isn't much, especially when you have a squad backing you up. And subsequently get shot at every angle, and blown apart. The Banshee would be severely outclassed by modern-day fighter jets. I can't see the seraph giving much trouble either.[/QUOTE] Very, VERY true. [editline]7th January 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=BmB;27262934]There isn't anything to explain if you didn't get it because in the book it's as clear cut as it possibly can be. I'm sorry you're a moron.[/QUOTE] I really dislike seeing someone who can't hold a debate without insulting another person.
He can't debate because he's not got anything to actually debate with, saying it is crap is his entire argument (which isn't an argument at all without relevant or even any points to bring up as to why he thinks it is so.)
[QUOTE=P1X3L N1NJA;27261386]I dont think an anti air missle would be able to hit something not only that small but falling that fast on entry into the atmosphere. Elites dont work alone they have their cannon fodder grunts to take the bullets for them while they make precise shots, sure alone he will probably die to a squad but not without at least of of your guys dying, His shields would hold up long enough to kill at least one of you. Banshees aren't supposed to be like fighter jets we dont really have a counter part to them because they are so strange, they play the role of an attack helicopter but hang around the battle rather than there to just provide support.[/QUOTE] The Apache attack helicopter would blow them to bits. And you're wrong, we have very effective anti-missile systems. One such type is the type used on American Aircraft carriers, which are VERY effective against small missiles. [editline]7th January 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=RayvenQ;27263407]He can't debate because he's not got anything to actually debate with, saying it is crap is his entire argument (which isn't an argument at all without relevant or even any points to bring up as to why he thinks it is so.)[/QUOTE] I agree, I think it's very sad to see someone so intolerant of another's opinion. [editline]7th January 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Mipit;27251993]And this thread started so nicely.[/QUOTE] I know, it's sad, isn't it?
There isn't an opinion to hold there is one way to interpret it because of how clear cut it is. Guy in suit moves too fast, suit overcompensates, breaks his bones. Spartan in suit moves too fast, suit overcompensates and nearly breaks his bones. Neither would have happened if they hadn't been stupid. A normal person who knows what he's doing can wear it just the same because if you know what you're doing like the spartans learn to you won't be in the overcompensation situation. And all of that is supplemented by Halsey's journal that reveals a safety system to prevent exactly this sort of thing, only it had been disabled for the tests. In other news, the sky is blue.
Even if the suit has a safety system, i doubt it'd even work anywhere near like it was meant to, would probably move slow as fuck in it. Maybe they had tested it with the safeties on, and that was the first test with the safeties off because they reached the limit of what the suit could do with the safeties on. IT's more like: Guy in suit moves, (he didn't over compensate, the first movement broke his arm and his agony induced spasms wer ethen multiplied by the suit compounding the problem even further.) the suit multiplies that movement, as it was designed to, but is too powerful for a normal body to withstand, hence why the spartans go through all that engineering to make their bones stronger, their reactions stronger (to better compensate for small movement stec) to simply get them into the suit. Spartan bones were modified to be 2-4 times stronger than an unmodified human, when the chief salutes without thinking when he first puts it on, he [I]nearly[/I] breaks his wrist. What you can't seem to understand is the Spartans were made for Mjolnir, not the other way round. It even mentions that the predeccessor to Mjolnir existed, but it was big, bulky, heavy and slow with a limited power supply.
No, the safety system is described to have no limiting effect beyond what would injure the wearer. The system however, wasn't entirely ready (iirc) and they went ahead with the test early. What you can't seem to understand is that the spartans learn to not move their muscles but simply excite them enough to make the suit move. This produces no ill effects whatsoever. Add the safety system and there is no logical reason why a normal human wouldn't be able to wear it.
No, the spartans move their muscles, they just had to relearn how much movement in their muscles transformed into movement with the suit. Actually, they think about moving them, at least thats how its described, but thinking about how much to move your muscle needed to be relearned because of it magnifying their strength. They move, the suit moves, they just have to factor in how much to move (which they can to a greater degree because their reaction times have been greatly increased) There's also the consideration of weight, the suit, with a spartan in it, weighed about half a ton, a normal person wouldn't be able to wear it. Where exactly did you get this source of the journal from, as afaik, it wasn't shown as written, but just as the spartans watching the recording of the test.
Journal comes with Halo Reach limited and upwards. Weight has no bearing on the wearability of *power armor*. It makes you stronger not weaker. Yeah see, that was exactly what I said. And there is no logical conclusion that says a normal human can't do the same. Simply excite the muscles enough to make the suit move, just by thinking about moving your muscles. The force created has no ill effects. Halsey designed the suit. And she sure as hell didn't design it for exclusive Spartan use.
Spartans gets their toes cut off to fit more armor in the feet of the suit. That's why normal humans can't wear them. [editline]7th January 2011[/editline] Or what RayvenQ said, that works too.
[QUOTE=BmB;27263867]Journal comes with Halo Reach limited and upwards.[/QUOTE] So your entire argument for Fall of Reach being shit is from a game that was 1. made almost a decade since it was released and 2. radically altered what was known to have happened on reach from all the other books?
[QUOTE=BmB;27263867]Journal comes with Halo Reach limited and upwards. Weight has no bearing on the wearability of *power armor*. It makes you stronger not weaker. Yeah see, that was exactly what I said. And there is no logical conclusion that says a normal human can't do the same. Simply excite the muscles enough to make the suit move, just by thinking about moving your muscles. The force created has no ill effects. Halsey designed the suit. And she sure as hell didn't design it for exclusive Spartan use.[/QUOTE] The Mark III, IV, and V suits, to my knowledge, work just as Rayven describes-- they enhance movement, but to a degree that no normal human can withstand. At least one of the books specifically mentions that the Spartan project was a result of the MJOLNIR project, and not the other way around-- Halsey needed supersoldiers to use her power armor. Spartan-IIs are augmented to withstand that armor. Spartan-IIIs, which you may be thinking of, on the other hand, have fewer augmentations and receive much more manageable power armor, albeit at the cost of effectiveness. To my knowledge. It has been a while since I read Ghosts of Onyx. Put it this way. You have a guy holding your arm-- when you move it, he pushes it as well. Now, replace the guy with an idealized machine-- something that moves your arm at pretty much the same exact time that you move, and with an enormous amount of force. Now replace the arm with an arm made of a fairly weak material. It's pretty easy to imagine that with enough force and with a weak enough arm, the forces involved would tear the "weak" arm apart. Therefore, an arm can be broken by enough force, and it's simply a matter of scaling it up. MJOLNIR power armor is no ordinary power armor-- it is incredibly powerful, and none of the games really show quite how fast it acts or how powerful it really is. I believe the master chief, in his first test of the armor, manages to either catch or push a rocket coming towards him.
He slaps it aside, albeit with help from Cortana with the timing.
[QUOTE=RayvenQ;27263965]So your entire argument for Fall of Reach being shit is from a game that was 1. made almost a decade since it was released and 2. radically altered what was known to have happened on reach from all the other books?[/QUOTE] I believe bungie materials and games take precedence in canon. Not a bad thing either because fall of reach is terrible.
[QUOTE=BmB;27263867]Journal comes with Halo Reach limited and upwards. Weight has no bearing on the wearability of *power armor*. It makes you stronger not weaker. Yeah see, that was exactly what I said. And there is no logical conclusion that says a normal human can't do the same. Simply excite the muscles enough to make the suit move, just by thinking about moving your muscles. The force created has no ill effects. Halsey designed the suit. And she sure as hell didn't design it for exclusive Spartan use.[/QUOTE] I remember on a book, a non-spartan used the suit and broke a lot of bones trying to. The name sadly escaped my mind
[QUOTE=Itszutak;27264186]The Mark III, IV, and V suits, to my knowledge, work just as Rayven describes-- they enhance movement, but to a degree that no normal human can withstand.[/QUOTE] No, this is the common, but gross misinterpretation of that chapter in FoA. I gave my correct interpretation before. When applying too much force results in lethal response, the logical conclusion isn't "lol only spart4ns can use xD" it's "don't apply too much force and you'll be fine" Because spartans don't apply too much force and they don't suffer ill effects. The one time they did, which was in the same scene even, he did suffer ill effects, albeit not lethal because of the augmentations. You need to be a spartan to survive a malfunction. But you don't need to be a spartan to use it. In other words [highlight]you can't use the material I have shown to be falsely interpreted to support that interpretation[/highlight]
[QUOTE=BmB;27264409]I believe bungie materials and games take precedence in canon. Not a bad thing either because fall of reach is terrible.[/QUOTE] Maybe so, but you're using stuff written and retconned almost a decade later to say the book was crap, when it was far from that. And even using your argument, only spartans have the fine muscle control (that they have because of their enhancements) to apply less than too much force. anyone else, even as slow as they can, will still move too fast for them to be able to control it and not injure themselves. It's like blinking, and then closing your eyes at the same speed as blinking but only closing them 70% (best analogy i could come up with on the spur of the moment) Also, to use your "Bungie Canon" card against you, if it were possible for non spartans to use the suits, they'd have had it in at least one game of the series, or even slightly mentioned it.
No I thought it was crap before reach was even announced. Which made me extra excited because I knew Bungie's take on the subject would be better. [editline]7th January 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=RayvenQ;27264570]Maybe so, but you're using stuff written and retconned almost a decade later to say the book was crap, when it was far from that. And even using your argument, only spartans have the fine muscle control (that they have because of their enhancements) to apply less than too much force. anyone else, even as slow as they can, will still move too fast for them to be able to control it and not injure themselves.[/QUOTE] Uh... no? It's a documented medical phenomenon that muscles excite themselves extremely lightly when you just think about moving them. This is not a spartan ability. This is just something humans do.
If you want to go by canon, you can't say anyone can wear it until its shown ingame that they can. Sure, a normal person [I]could[/I] do that, but a spartan can do it better and in a more controlled manner, which is key with something that magnifies everything you do. (BTW, 40K > Halo, period.)
[QUOTE=RayvenQ;27264693]If you want to go by canon, you can't say anyone can wear it until its shown ingame that they can. Sure, a normal person [I]could[/I] do that, but a spartan can do it better and in a more controlled manner, which is key with something that magnifies everything you do. (BTW, 40K > Halo, period.)[/QUOTE] Yes.
[QUOTE=RayvenQ;27264693]If you want to go by canon, you can't say anyone can wear it until its shown ingame that they can. Sure, a normal person [I]could[/I] do that, but a spartan can do it better and in a more controlled manner, which is key with something that magnifies everything you do. (BTW, 40K > Halo, period.)[/QUOTE] starcraft = 40k > halo to me anyways [editline]7th January 2011[/editline] also all of this talk about suits and self injury remind me of all of those prototype suits in iron man 2 lol where the suit's torso does a complete 180 with the guy inside
40k > Starcraft. Zerglings? Hah, Tyranids > Zerglings, in both danger and amount.
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