• Religion : why does it exist ?
    792 replies, posted
[QUOTE=AK'z;33756002] However what is failed to be noticed, is that CULTURE was pretty much invented by imaginative thinking.[/QUOTE] Nice artwork and literature inspired by imaginative thinking is fine, just remember to call it fictional/mythology rather than forcing little kids to believe it as truth, with threats of eternal punishment.
[QUOTE=Noble;33756247]Nice artwork and literature inspired by imaginative thinking is fine, just remember to call it fictional/mythology rather than forcing little kids to believe it as truth, with threats of eternal punishment.[/QUOTE] That's true. It's terrible to frighten kids. [editline]16th December 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=PunchedInFac;33756128]That happens everywhere already. Look at philosophy, the arts, politics and even sports. Each one of them already holds a myriad of 'cults' with their own unified opinion. For example: Pragmatists, Existensialists and Idealists in Philosophy Surrealists, Introverts and classical artists in the arts. Thing I love about humans is that we can take any idea in our head and twist, fold and refine it into not only a myriad of branching ideas, but a lifestyle, even a doctrine, by which we can choose to be a part of or not.[/QUOTE] That's the point. It's not the cult that matters, more the individual.
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;33756066]why should one "respect" all sides? not all beliefs are created equal. respect is something you earn, you're not entitled to it.[/QUOTE] That just made you look like a big jerk. Thanks for proving my point.
Try relating, but don't advise. I hear too many "It's better for people to think this"
[QUOTE=semite;33756688]That just made you look like a big jerk. Thanks for proving my point.[/QUOTE] If he said "people" instead of "beliefs" you would have a point. He's right, not all beliefs get equal weight. Someone's claim that thunderstorms are a result of the Greek god Zeus getting angry doesn't get equal weight with someone's claim that thunderstorms are a result of rising air currents. It's certainly possible that one claim on one side of the debate is [b]flat out wrong[/b] and does not deserve equal weight with claims that are backed up by evidence.
[QUOTE=semite;33756688]That just made you look like a big jerk. Thanks for proving my point.[/QUOTE] What? If I create a cult that believes that monkeys made caravans using bananas in 24AD, why should it have the same amount of respect as the mainstream history theory? Can I have the flying spaghetti monster's creation myth taught alongside Evolution?
Religion exists because long ago, people were very stupid. People were scared of strange things they didn't understand, so they tried to come up with answers for those things. The answers they came up then spread around and weren't questioned, which led to them being accepted as truths. That's how religions came into existence, stupid people made bullshit stories that stupider people believed.
[QUOTE=JustGman;33757145]Religion exists because long ago, people were very stupid. People were scared of strange things they didn't understand, so they tried to come up with answers for those things. The answers they came up then spread around and weren't questioned, which led to them being accepted as truths. That's how religions came into existence, stupid people made bullshit stories that stupider people believed.[/QUOTE] It's oh-so-easy to denigrate past civilisations as "stupid" and ourselves as cultured and intelligent individuals. Their problem wasn't lack of intelligence, it was lack of information. If they were truly so dumb, then how was Rome built? Besides, we're still not immune from the problem. Everyone here will have some illogical beliefs lurking around inside their skull and not even realise it. If it's not religion it'll be something else.
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;33757534]It's oh-so-easy to denigrate past civilisations as "stupid" and ourselves as cultured and intelligent individuals. Their problem wasn't lack of intelligence, it was lack of information. If they were truly so dumb, then how was Rome built? Besides, we're still not immune from the problem. Everyone here will have some illogical beliefs lurking around inside their skull and not even realise it. If it's not religion it'll be something else.[/QUOTE] Yes, but it is important that otherwise rational people call bullshit, instead of helping foster it. It's a never ending struggle, but it's something that must be fought.
[QUOTE=Jookia;33757008]What? If I create a cult that believes that monkeys made caravans using bananas in 24AD, why should it have the same amount of respect as the mainstream history theory? Can I have the flying spaghetti monster's creation myth taught alongside Evolution?[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Noble;33756979]If he said "people" instead of "beliefs" you would have a point. He's right, not all beliefs get equal weight. Someone's claim that thunderstorms are a result of the Greek god Zeus getting angry doesn't get equal weight with someone's claim that thunderstorms are a result of rising air currents. It's certainly possible that one claim on one side of the debate is [B]flat out wrong[/B] and does not deserve equal weight with claims that are backed up by evidence.[/QUOTE] Either you two intentionally misconstrued my posts, or are blinded by ignorance. Please reread.
[QUOTE=semite;33758673]Either you two intentionally misconstrued my posts, or are blinded by ignorance.[/quote] Or maybe we just disagree with you. [quote]Please reread.[/QUOTE] Alright lets take a look. [QUOTE=semite;33755769]They aren't harming you by speaking to you.[/quote] Agreed, to an extent. It's a bit different though when you get told often by religious people that you're going to burn for eternity because you don't buy into a particular myth. [quote]Do you support human rights only when it fits your anti-religious agenda?[/quote] Straw man. [quote]you have to respect all sides[/quote] I don't need to "respect" beliefs that are demonstrably false. Sure, I'll respect people who hold the beliefs, but the beliefs themselves don't deserve my respect at all. Let's take someone who believes that the Earth is 6,000 years old for example. I can't "force" them to believe otherwise, but what I can do is present evidence that shows why their belief is [b]completely wrong[/b] and inconsistent with reality. [quote]otherwise you're just a biased asshole forcing your beliefs on other people, atheist or theist[/QUOTE] Or maybe you're just a person exercising their right to free speech, using it to simply correct a horrifically flawed reasoning process that leads people to believe false things. Instead of taking the route of whining about being offended when one's beliefs are challenged, why not present some evidence to prove them wrong?
[QUOTE=Noble;33759356]why not present some evidence to prove them wrong?[/QUOTE] I'm not disagreeing with the fact that you have a right to argue with them, but some people on this board feel it is their moral obligation to eradicate religion. As ridiculous as all religions are, I respect people's rights to believe in them. Either I did a bad job at explaining my point or you did a bad job at interpreting it.
The simple answer is that we just don't know. We can only speculate as to how and why religion came to be. Mankind most likely has always fought the question as to why anything exists- even during our earliest years of sapience. [QUOTE=JustGman;33757145]Religion exists because long ago, people were very stupid. People were scared of strange things they didn't understand, so they tried to come up with answers for those things. The answers they came up then spread around and weren't questioned, which led to them being accepted as truths. That's how religions came into existence, stupid people made bullshit stories that stupider people believed.[/QUOTE] It's simply ignorant to claim that Man was 'stupid'. It's like calling an infant stupid for burning its hand on a stove. Man was simply ignorant and ill informed of the knowledge we know today. Bear in mind that every creature must learn, and mankind has proven to have an impressive adaptability and ingenuity to them as a species. We being among the few creatures to calculate, create, and formulate ideas. Early civilizations- from the people of Mesopotamia all the way to ancient Rome or even Mesoamerican societies- have developed means of warfare, government, law, and civilization all on their own; adapting to the region's numerous obstacles in whatever way they could (Far from from stupid). Religion was not an aspect of 'human stupidity' but of human ignorance attempting to fathom the idea of existence. Early Man most likely surmised that something- some kind of being(s) or force(s) greater than them- must control everything around them (This idea could have easily been gathered when Man noticed the forces of nature from storms to earthquakes and oceans). But how does one project the idea of nothing creating/destroying something? How would the older and wiser members of Early Man's nomadic tribes describe and explain their 'wisdom' and experiences to future generations? Simple. Personify it. By creating an image in people's minds of these grand forces working to create/destroy the world, people gain some understanding in what is trying to be said. They do this by using aspects of what they know (that is: animals and beasts that populated the region) to create varying images to depict different meanings. But Mankind did not develop in a uniform region and thus developed different depictions of similar concepts. This is not Man being 'stupid', it is Man attempting to understand their world in the absence of science (ignorance =/= stupid). There was no reason to think anything was more than it seemed, until people began to prod and wonder and discover evidence that proved otherwise. We thought and imagined means of understanding [further] and controlling our world (and in some cases its people). Ancient alchemists, for instance, were early chemists who experimented with numerous materials and determined similar and differentiating properties of these materials. I do not honestly believe religion was created as a 'control scheme'. Religion probably started as a means of teaching wisdom to future generations- whether it be polytheistic or monotheistic- through stories, characters, and metaphors passed down orally, simply because Early Man had no concept of 'science'. However, and unfortunately, different individuals [i]have[/i] used these ideas to control people: Pharaohs and corrupt Popes using the beliefs to control their subjects under 'divine right' (read: greed), for example. Religion- or rather- Man's faith, has become a powerful weapon because people are manipulated to believe themselves to be vessels of 'God's Will' or 'God's Wrath' (or similar concepts) by certain figures. Man is a young and often misguided species (even to this day), they are flawed and thus religion is flawed. However, there may be some form of truth to these ancient beliefs to some capacity that even now we are only beginning to understand. They may not be as literal as Religious texts claim but perhaps there are defining forces to the existence of the universe that can be defined as some form of 'God-like' entity. I'm not saying any of this is 100% fact, but are, perhaps, likely scenarios.
Religion was created to control people. I'm not falling for it.
It was a meme that was good at spreading. A belief that tells you to never question it and to spread it to other people is going to spread pretty fast.
I think religion exists because of the simple fact that people living pre 18th century couldn't explain important things in life . The fact that people still have religion today is : they are either afraid to die or believe in something after their lives or they lack something in live.
Well today's form of religion derives from previous religious practices such as polytheism and other pagan religious and spiritual practices which came about due to the people of those times being unable to answers certain things regarding life. Why people STILL believe in the absurdly and outrageously illogical stories religion was born from baffles me. I guess it mostly has to do with the lifestyle they're born into, ignorance of the counter arguments, or just the inability of being able to understand logic, reasoning, and probability.
All these threads subliminally bash religious believers, you all assume that god/buddha/zeus whatever you wanna call it don't exist. Here's an answer to why: maybe because they needed a way to worship their God/Gods?
[QUOTE=Ladowerf;33770547]All these threads subliminally bash religious believers, you all assume that god/buddha/zeus whatever you wanna call it don't exist.[/QUOTE] Stop being butt hurt. Even if there is a god the question of why religion exists is still a question. If god existed its still highly possible that they would worship a different religion. Even though I see no reason why assuming zues doesn't exist is a bad thing.
[QUOTE=Ladowerf;33770547]All these threads subliminally bash religious believers, you all assume that god/buddha/zeus whatever you wanna call it don't exist. Here's an answer to why: maybe because they needed a way to worship their God/Gods?[/QUOTE] That makes absolutely no sense, at all
[QUOTE=JustGman;33757145]Religion exists because long ago, people were very stupid. People were scared of strange things they didn't understand, so they tried to come up with answers for those things. The answers they came up then spread around and weren't questioned, which led to them being accepted as truths. That's how religions came into existence, stupid people made bullshit stories that stupider people believed.[/QUOTE] I don't get how you can call people back then "stupid" because they DIDN'T have the capabilities of creating the science we have today basically this: [QUOTE=-Ben_Wolfe-;33760546]The simple answer is that we just don't know. We can only speculate as to how and why religion came to be. Mankind most likely has always fought the question as to why anything exists- even during our earliest years of sapience. It's simply ignorant to claim that Man was 'stupid'. It's like calling an infant stupid for burning its hand on a stove. Man was simply ignorant and ill informed of the knowledge we know today. Bear in mind that every creature must learn, and mankind has proven to have an impressive adaptability and ingenuity to them as a species. We being among the few creatures to calculate, create, and formulate ideas. Early civilizations- from the people of Mesopotamia all the way to ancient Rome or even Mesoamerican societies- have developed means of warfare, government, law, and civilization all on their own; adapting to the region's numerous obstacles in whatever way they could (Far from from stupid). Religion was not an aspect of 'human stupidity' but of human ignorance attempting to fathom the idea of existence. Early Man most likely surmised that something- some kind of being(s) or force(s) greater than them- must control everything around them (This idea could have easily been gathered when Man noticed the forces of nature from storms to earthquakes and oceans). But how does one project the idea of nothing creating/destroying something? How would the older and wiser members of Early Man's nomadic tribes describe and explain their 'wisdom' and experiences to future generations? Simple. Personify it. By creating an image in people's minds of these grand forces working to create/destroy the world, people gain some understanding in what is trying to be said. They do this by using aspects of what they know (that is: animals and beasts that populated the region) to create varying images to depict different meanings. But Mankind did not develop in a uniform region and thus developed different depictions of similar concepts. This is not Man being 'stupid', it is Man attempting to understand their world in the absence of science (ignorance =/= stupid). There was no reason to think anything was more than it seemed, until people began to prod and wonder and discover evidence that proved otherwise. We thought and imagined means of understanding [further] and controlling our world (and in some cases its people). Ancient alchemists, for instance, were early chemists who experimented with numerous materials and determined similar and differentiating properties of these materials. I do not honestly believe religion was created as a 'control scheme'. Religion probably started as a means of teaching wisdom to future generations- whether it be polytheistic or monotheistic- through stories, characters, and metaphors passed down orally, simply because Early Man had no concept of 'science'. However, and unfortunately, different individuals [i]have[/i] used these ideas to control people: Pharaohs and corrupt Popes using the beliefs to control their subjects under 'divine right' (read: greed), for example. Religion- or rather- Man's faith, has become a powerful weapon because people are manipulated to believe themselves to be vessels of 'God's Will' or 'God's Wrath' (or similar concepts) by certain figures. Man is a young and often misguided species (even to this day), they are flawed and thus religion is flawed. However, there may be some form of truth to these ancient beliefs to some capacity that even now we are only beginning to understand. They may not be as literal as Religious texts claim but perhaps there are defining forces to the existence of the universe that can be defined as some form of 'God-like' entity. I'm not saying any of this is 100% fact, but are, perhaps, likely scenarios.[/QUOTE]
If I change the meaning of the word god, then of course it can exist as a symbol. Religion on the other hand, is about a lot more than a god. It's very much about symbolism and philosophical thoughts rendered through stories. Now, relating to this discussion, the majoriity would call any kind of religious philosophy, jargon. Without looking at the bigger picture. Not all people who study religion are idiots, neither do they indoctrinate. Maybe it happens in high power countries, but not in Asia or in Europe.
Humans seek patterns in everything, it helps us find tricks and to predict things. There are two kinds of errors you can make in finding a pattern; not seeing a pattern when it's there, and seeing a pattern where there isn't one. Religion and almost all superstition is of the latter. The world is a crazy place, so many things going on and we have no idea how a lot of it happens, even more so in ancient times. If you can pick up a little false association like doing a certain dance results in it raining later on, superstition grows and you fall into these traps. From there on it just grows and we make assumptions based off incorrect information leading to more false superstition.
Some people are interested in non-logical experiences. Due to there being so much diversity in the world, it doesn't actually hurt anyone. Then again, I don't know how people are directly indoctrinated. Mostly themselves to blame anyway.
[QUOTE=AK'z;33778653] Religion on the other hand, is about a lot more than a god. It's very much about symbolism and philosophical thoughts rendered through stories. [/QUOTE] There are parts of the Bible for example which are rendered through stories, like the parables of Jesus, but to say that the entire book is meant to be symbolic is simply not true. It's just what religion is claiming these days to adapt to modern scientific evidence. If someone had claimed the Bible is all just a bunch of "symbolism and philosophical thoughts rendered through stories" in another time and place, their head would have been on the chopping block. [QUOTE=AK'z;33778706]Some people are interested in non-logical experiences. Due to there being so much diversity in the world, it doesn't actually hurt anyone. Then again, I don't know how people are directly indoctrinated. Mostly themselves to blame anyway.[/QUOTE] So it's a 7 year old's fault when their parents force them to go to Catholic school, where they can grow up with a distorted view of reality?
Let's steer clear of Christianity for the time being. We're neglecting to talk about the more "obviously" peaceful religions like Buddhism and Hinduism. How many wars and indoctrinations are they accused of? [editline]18th December 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Noble;33779952] So it's a 7 year old's fault when their parents force them to go to Catholic school, where they can grow up with a distorted view of reality?[/QUOTE] If the parents think they will benefit then of course. I don't think it's wise to give a child full freedom to explore because they'll immediately notice the violence and hatred that people have that will inevitably have a poor long term effect on them.
[QUOTE=AK'z;33780017]If the parents think they will benefit then of course.[/QUOTE] What?
[QUOTE=AK'z;33780017] If the parents think they will benefit then of course.[/QUOTE] [url]http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23882698/ns/health-childrens_health/t/faith-healing-parents-charged-babys-death/[/url] That kind of thinking doesn't work too well in reality.
Again true. However, will a kid understand that nobody knows what happens after you die, after he's been told that he'd go to heaven?
[QUOTE=AK'z;33780017]Let's steer clear of Christianity for the time being. We're neglecting to talk about the more "obviously" peaceful religions like Buddhism and Hinduism. How many wars and indoctrinations are they accused of?[/QUOTE] Religions such as Buddhism and Confucianism are treated less as religions and more as ethical systems or philosophies of life. This thread is referring to the more broader meaning of religion, and not the individual ones themselves. The God Hypothesis, for example, is more likely what this thread is discussing, as it encompass any supernatural being responsible for the creation of the universe. Of course, seeing how most people are familiar with Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, the discussion is bound to be mostly about the Abarhamic God.
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