• Are we too hard on Religion?
    629 replies, posted
I do believe we are hard on religion and the people who are idiots, but I also believe we need to be. What is entirely different is that Facepunch is too zealous in it's athiests manners, becoming a zealot "for rational thought" and ridiculing those who actually don't need deserve it as some people have actually said akin to this in other threads.
So then a gorilla would also be an atheist...
[QUOTE=sgman91;34741209]So then a gorilla would also be an atheist...[/QUOTE] well technically yeah, but that's like saying a gorilla doesn't have political affiliations.
[QUOTE=matsta;34740195]Actually, for a human being to be an atheist in this society, now, he HAS to actively reject the idea of god. So yes, you have to be indoctrinated to actively reject the idea of a god.[/QUOTE] Being indoctrinated into atheism is like being indoctrinated into believing gravity exists. Indoctrination to the truth is different than being indoctrinated into something that isn't true.
[QUOTE=PvtCupcakes;34741257]Being indoctrinated into atheism is like being indoctrinated into believing gravity exists. Indoctrination to the truth is different than being indoctrinated into something that isn't true.[/QUOTE] ...for a given value of true.
Atheism basically is a religion anyway. Atheists have faith that there is no God. Noone can prove God does or doesn't exist. That being said. I was raised by extremist Christians and had to go to school with the smugest, cock sucking homeschoolers of all time. If the kids I went to "school" with knew I was in the Infantry, dipping, drinking, swearing and occasionally fucking the barracks whore; They'd shun me forever for not going to some private christian college and studying religious science or being a preacher. I'm a christian but to put it bluntly, I fucking HATE the Christian people I know.
[QUOTE=EurofanBMW;34741638]Atheism basically is a religion anyway.[/quote] It's about as much of a religion as bald is a hair color. [quote]Atheists have faith that there is no God.[/QUOTE] No [quote]Noone can prove God does or doesn't exist.[/quote] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil[/url]
When you say " Noone can prove God does or doesn't exist. " it yanks my brain a little. After all, God is a product of the human mind, like many other things. And few hundred millions years ago, there was no sin, atheism or even human yet, just wild fucking life.
[QUOTE=Bat-shit;34741796]When you say " Noone can prove God does or doesn't exist. " it yanks my brain a little. After all, God is a product of the human mind, like many other things. And few hundred millions years ago, there was no sin, atheism or even human yet, just wild fucking life.[/QUOTE] That's a theory.
[QUOTE=PvtCupcakes;34741257]Being indoctrinated into atheism is like being indoctrinated into believing gravity exists. Indoctrination to the truth is different than being indoctrinated into something that isn't true.[/QUOTE] But we can prove gravity exists just by dropping a pencil. We can't prove that God exists or doesn't exist. Therefore, all this truth is speculation rooted in faith.
[QUOTE=EurofanBMW;34742004]That's a theory.[/QUOTE] Is that supposed to be a serious jab at evolution. [QUOTE=The_J_Hat;34742144]But we can prove gravity exists just by dropping a pencil. We can't prove that God exists or doesn't exist. Therefore, all this truth is speculation rooted in faith.[/QUOTE] That's bullshit. God's existence can be proven or disproved using logical arguments.
[QUOTE=The_J_Hat;34742144]But we can prove gravity exists just by dropping a pencil. We can't prove that God exists or doesn't exist. Therefore, all this truth is speculation rooted in faith.[/QUOTE] Before Newton came up with the idea of gravity it was believed that god pulled things to the ground when they fell. [editline]17th February 2012[/editline] And just dropping a pencil doesn't show that gravity is what keeps the Earth orbiting the sun.
[QUOTE=The_J_Hat;34742144]But we can prove gravity exists just by dropping a pencil. We can't prove that God exists or doesn't exist. Therefore, all this truth is speculation rooted in faith.[/QUOTE] Wrong. If a hypothesis is unfalsifiable it lacks credibility and cannot be said to be true until proven.
[QUOTE=PvtCupcakes;34741257]Being indoctrinated into atheism is like being indoctrinated into believing gravity exists.[/QUOTE] so you have concrete evidence that god doesn't exist? or are you asserting your opinion as fact? [editline]17th February 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=PvtCupcakes;34742843] And just dropping a pencil doesn't show that gravity is what keeps the Earth orbiting the sun.[/QUOTE] Absolutely. Gravity is shown as F=G((m1)(m2)/r^2). Do you happen to have the equation that disproves the existance of a deity on hand?
[QUOTE=cccritical;34743405]so you have concrete evidence that god doesn't exist? or are you asserting your opinion as fact?[/QUOTE] Do you have concrete evidence that God does exist? Or how about evidence that Zeus or some other god who isn't your god doesn't exist. We don't need to disprove every fairy tale that you can come up with. Just because you can think of something utterly ridiculous doesn't mean someone else needs to take time out of their day to prove your silly thoughts don't exist in reality.
You asserted that god not existing was fact. Fact: 1. an event or thing known to have happened or existed 2. a truth verifiable from experience or observation 3. a piece of information: get me all the facts of this case 4. (often plural) law an actual event, happening, etc, as distinguished from its legal consequences. Questions of fact are decided by the jury, questions of law by the court or judge 5. (philosophy) a proposition that may be either true or false, as contrasted with an evaluative statement You equated the inexistance of god with the existance of gravity. Not only is gravity directly observable but it is mathematically proven. God or the lack of god is neither of these things. Ball is in your court.
[QUOTE=Noble;34741683]It's about as much of a religion as bald is a hair color. No [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil[/url][/QUOTE] The problem with The Problem of Evil is that god can fit so many definitions. The idea behind The Problem of Evil is sound, but only for some specific forms of god. (Bare with me) There is the idea that god is the all knowing all caring man in the moon who see's us as his children - and there you can see where why the idea of why evil exists comes from. But what if you have a god that's created us as an antfarm type deal. You know those little spaceage ant farms that they have? Like that. He provided the resources for life and lets us live it without interruption. Ant 1 may have had his family killed by ant 2 and be praying to god for help - but how would you know if you can't hear/understand them?
[QUOTE=cccritical;34743513]You asserted that god not existing was fact.[/QUOTE] The 'inexistence of god' is not fact, but it does not need to be. There is no sense in disproving something that was never proven to begin with. Not only that, but in most cases if one tried to disprove God (the Judeo-Christian god more specifically), they would be unable to because said god has set itself up in conditions that prevent it from being disproven or proven. So, to say that you "can't prove or disprove god's existence" is an empty statement, it's like saying "you can't prove or disprove that unicorns exist". Technically it is true, but any level-headed person wouldn't take it seriously because unicorns were never proven to exist in the first place, meaning that it isn't necessary to disprove their existence.
[QUOTE=Noble;34742776]Is that supposed to be a serious jab at evolution. That's bullshit. God's existence can be proven or disproved using logical arguments.[/QUOTE] Logic doesn't always dictate. ;)
[QUOTE=cccritical;34743513] You equated the inexistance of god with the existance of gravity. Not only is gravity directly observable but it is mathematically proven. God or the lack of god is neither of these things.[/QUOTE] Since god cannot be observed or proved, it's safe to assume he does not exist.
[QUOTE=cccritical;34743405]so you have concrete evidence that god doesn't exist? or are you asserting your opinion as fact? [editline]17th February 2012[/editline] Absolutely. Gravity is shown as F=G((m1)(m2)/r^2). Do you happen to have the equation that disproves the existance of a deity on hand?[/QUOTE] The burden of proof or disproving doesn't rest on science. Religion makes the claims that God does exist and has to prove it undeniably.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;34743588]The 'inexistence of god' is not fact, but it does not need to be. There is no sense in disproving something that was never proven to begin with. Not only that, but in most cases if one tried to disprove God (the Judeo-Christian god more specifically), they would be unable to because said god has set itself up in conditions that prevent it from being disproven or proven. So, to say that you "can't prove or disprove god's existence" is an empty statement, it's like saying "you can't prove or disprove that unicorns exist". Technically it is true, but any level-headed person wouldn't take it seriously because unicorns were never proven to exist in the first place, meaning that it isn't necessary to disprove their existence.[/QUOTE] When you compare god to gravity you're in a little deeper than just saying 'nope'. [editline]17th February 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Sickle;34743609]Since god cannot be observed or proved, it's safe to assume he does not exist.[/QUOTE] What do you think of circumstantial evidence in law?
[QUOTE=Sottalytober;34743598]Logic doesn't always dictate. ;)[/QUOTE] Yes, but generally when you're talking about whether or not something exists within the context of a debate, logic is pretty fucking important. [editline]17th February 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=cccritical;34743638]When you compare god to gravity you're in a little deeper than just saying 'nope'.[/QUOTE] At what point in that post did I mention gravity?
[QUOTE=cccritical;34743513]You asserted that god not existing was fact. Fact: 1. an event or thing known to have happened or existed 2. a truth verifiable from experience or observation 3. a piece of information: get me all the facts of this case 4. (often plural) law an actual event, happening, etc, as distinguished from its legal consequences. Questions of fact are decided by the jury, questions of law by the court or judge 5. (philosophy) a proposition that may be either true or false, as contrasted with an evaluative statement You equated the inexistance of god with the existance of gravity. Not only is gravity directly observable but it is mathematically proven. God or the lack of god is neither of these things. Ball is in your court.[/QUOTE] I don't see where he asserted that god not existing was a fact, it seems like you just made that assumption after the comparison to gravity. Not all atheists go as far to say that god not existing is a fact. I will go as far as to say the existence of the god of the bible (all loving, all knowing, and all good) is logically impossible due to the existence of evil (this god and evil can't logically coexist), and that free will cannot possibly exist if god is all knowing either. [QUOTE=Sottalytober;34743587]The problem with The Problem of Evil is that god can fit so many definitions. The idea behind The Problem of Evil is sound, but only for some specific forms of god. (Bare with me) There is the idea that god is the all knowing all caring man in the moon who see's us as his children - and there you can see where why the idea of why evil exists comes from. But what if you have a god that's created us as an antfarm type deal. You know those little spaceage ant farms that they have? Like that. He provided the resources for life and lets us live it without interruption. Ant 1 may have had his family killed by ant 2 and be praying to god for help - but how would you know if you can't hear/understand them?[/QUOTE] Yes, and that's why I'm only applying it to the god of the bible, who is said to be all loving, all knowing, and all good. He also intervened several times in the Old Testament and also in the New Testament by sending Jesus, so the "god can't/won't intervene" argument is invalid. Also if god can't hear or understand "ant 1" then he isn't all-knowing (which is one of the qualities this god is said to have) [QUOTE=Sottalytober;34743598]Logic doesn't always dictate. ;)[/QUOTE] If you're going to seriously try to argue this then we have nothing further to discuss.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;34743674] At what point in that post did I mention gravity?[/QUOTE] PvtCupcakes implied that believing in god was the same as not believing in gravity and you attacked my attack on his comment. [editline]17th February 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Noble;34743684] I will go as far as to say the existence of the god of the bible (all loving, all knowing, and all good) is logically impossible due to the existence of evil (this god and evil can't logically coexist), and that free will cannot possibly exist if god is all knowing either.[/QUOTE] Logically impossible if you believe that he's a puppetmaster and we're all tied to the strings of fate, but that's an entirely different argument. When did we stop debating what this thread was made for?
[QUOTE=EurofanBMW;34741638]Atheism basically is a religion anyway.[/QUOTE] Fuck all, that's it everyone go home show's over. Rational thought as been debunked go to bed already.
[QUOTE=cccritical;34743729]Logically impossible if you believe that he's a puppetmaster and we're all tied to the strings of fate, but that's an entirely different argument. When did we stop debating what this thread was made for?[/QUOTE] If god exists outside of time and space then the concept of past, present, and future doesn't exist for him, all events are known to him simultaneously. If your future is known by god you can't act otherwise than what is already known by god and you don't have free will, just the illusion of it. If free will doesn't exist then you have a lot of explaining to do on how this god let the "fall of man" occur and why he allows hell to exist, along with evil in this world.
[QUOTE=cccritical;34743729]PvtCupcakes implied that believing in god was the same as not believing in gravity and you attacked my attack on his comment.[/QUOTE] Ah, my bad. I was trying to say something independent of his comment.
[QUOTE=Noble;34743839]If god exists outside of time and space then the concept of past, present, and future doesn't exist for him, all events are known to him simultaneously. If your future is known by god you can't act otherwise than what is already known by god and you don't have free will, just the illusion of it. If free will doesn't exist then you have a lot of explaining to do on how this god let the "fall of man" occur and why he allows hell to exist, along with evil in this world.[/QUOTE] Not every theist believes in predestiny. Wouldn't make much sense either to have a reward for good deeds and punishment for bad deeds if you're locked in to one or the other from birth, would it? Again, denominational beliefs have little bearing on whether or not Facepunch is too hard on religion at large.
[QUOTE=Noble;34743684]I will go as far as to say the existence of the god of the bible (all loving, all knowing, and all good) is logically impossible due to the existence of evil (this god and evil can't logically coexist), and that free will cannot possibly exist if god is all knowing either. If you're going to seriously try to argue this then we have nothing further to discuss.[/QUOTE] I think Satan explains the evil part.
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