• Are we too hard on Religion?
    629 replies, posted
[QUOTE=The_J_Hat;34750210]Satan was created not to be evil, but instead became evil and challenged God, thus creating a schism in Heaven and in the end, Satan and his followers were sent to Hell. Murderers and rapists weren't created by God, they became evil over time through Satan. Why God doesn't smash Satan and his throngs into bits is a bit more puzzling. I think it would be like a father killing his child. Sure the child in question is evil incarnate, but does a father want to kill his own flesh and blood? Perhaps God still thinks of Satan as a "child" in a manner of speaking. He doesn't want to kill him or kill those souls allied with him. He's a merciful God, even though the Bible does reference Him smiting unruly followers, but in the end their souls are still around. Maybe it's more like God can create and destroy anything He wants, but out of the love of His creation, He won't end their existence wholesale soul and all. [editline]18th February 2012[/editline] It's supposed to be an example, dumbass. I'm not stating that laws of science apply to God, I'm using it to describe so that you might understand.[/QUOTE] It's a scientific law floating in a sea of bullshit. And you pretty much are.
[QUOTE=Sickle;34750297]It's a scientific law floating in a sea of bullshit. And you pretty much are.[/QUOTE] It's not a scientific law applying to God, it was an example put in place to help people understand my meaning. Get it into your head.
[QUOTE=The_J_Hat;34750500]It's not a scientific law applying to God, it was an example put in place to help people understand my meaning. Get it into your head.[/QUOTE] The meaning was putrid shit to begin with.
[QUOTE=Sickle;34750550]The meaning was putrid shit to begin with.[/QUOTE] You're just getting up in everyone's face because they disagree with you, aren't you? Science and religion can coexist. Deal with it. Religion is always going to be around, whether you like it or not. Atheism is always going to be around, whether I like it or not. In the end, nobody is going to come out of this debate a winner.
[QUOTE=The_J_Hat;34750714]You're just getting up in everyone's face because they disagree with you, aren't you? Science and religion can coexist. Deal with it. Religion is always going to be around, whether you like it or not. Atheism is always going to be around, whether I like it or not. In the end, nobody is going to come out of this debate a winner.[/QUOTE] You're taking that from the guy who just mentioned those words a few posts up. With the advance of society and science, religion will no longer be needed by the masses. Humanity moves on from things that provide no benefit.
[QUOTE=Sickle;34750753]You're taking that from the guy who just mentioned those words a few posts up. With the advance of society and science, religion will no longer be needed by the masses. Humanity moves on from things that provide no benefit.[/QUOTE] what are you trying to accomplish by posting like this?
[QUOTE=Sickle;34750753]You're taking that from the guy who just mentioned those words a few posts up. With the advance of society and science, religion will no longer be needed by the masses. Humanity moves on from things that provide no benefit.[/QUOTE] It may seem that I'm only taking this stance from reading Mon's post, but that's not the case. The point is, we've argued for the past week. You try to argue a point and in the end you resort to childish name calling and insults. You cannot prove that religion will no longer be relevant in the future. And don't post that Will Durant crap, 'cause you're preaching to those who don't give a flying fuck.
[QUOTE=The_J_Hat;34750986]It may seem that I'm only taking this stance from reading Mon's post, but that's not the case. The point is, we've argued for the past week. You try to argue a point and in the end you resort to childish name calling and insults. You cannot prove that religion will no longer be relevant in the future. And don't post that Will Durant crap, 'cause you're preaching to those who don't give a flying fuck.[/QUOTE] [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_Durant"]Will Durant[/URL] isn't 'crap'. And I was arguing properly for a long time before I got tired of not getting a proper cited rebute. On the topic of Will Durant, before you cast him out as crap; [QUOTE]Religious Theism is Not Universal Well, not quite. There are two fundamental problems with this position. First, even if true, the popularity of an idea, belief, or ideology has no bearing on whether it's true or reasonable. The primary burden of proof always lies with those making the affirmative claim, no matter how popular that claim is now or has been through history. Anyone who feels comforted by the popularity of their ideology is effectively admitting that the ideology itself isn't very strong. Second, there are good reasons to doubt that this position is even true in the first place. Most societies through history have indeed had supernatural religions of one sort or another, but this doesn't mean that all of them have. This will probably come as a surprise to people who have simple assumed, without question, that religion and supernatural beliefs have been a universal feature of human society. Will Durant has done a great service by preserving information about skeptical attitudes towards religion and theism from so-called "primitive," non-European cultures. I have not been able to find this information elsewhere and it runs contrary to common assumptions. If religion can be defined as the worship of supernatural forces — an inadequate definition, but one which serves for most purposes — then it must be admitted that some cultures have little or no religion at all. Atheism & Skepticism in Africa As Durant explains, certain Pygmy tribes found in Africa were observed to have no identifiable cults or rites. There were no totems, no gods, no spirits. Their dead were buried without special ceremonies or accompanying items and received no further attention. They even appeared to lack simple superstitions, according to travelers' reports. Tribes in Cameroon only believed in malicious gods and so made no efforts to placate or please them. According to them, it was useless to even bother trying and more important to deal with whatever problems were placed in their path. Another group, the Vedahs of Ceylon, only admitted the possibility that gods might exist, but went no further. Neither prayers nor sacrifices were suggested in any way. When specifically asked a god, Durant reports that they answered in a very puzzled manner: "Is he on a rock? On a white-ant hill? On a tree? I never saw a god!" Durant also reports that a Zulu, when asked who made and governs things like the setting sun and the growing trees, answered: "No, we see them, but cannot tell how they came; we suppose that they came by themselves." Skepticism in North America Moving away from outright skepticism of the existence of gods, some North American Indian tribes believed in a god, but did not actively worship it. Like Epicurus in ancient Greece, they considered this god to be too remote from human affairs to be concerned with them. According to Durant, an Abipone Indian stated their philosophy thus: "Our grandfathers and our great-grandfathers were wont to contemplate the earth alone, solicitous only to see whether the plain afforded grass and water for their horses. They never troubled themselves about what went on in the heavens, and who was the creator and governor of the stars." In all of the above we find, even among supposedly "primitive" cultures, many of the themes which persist today in people's overt skepticism about the validity and value of religion: the inability to actually see any of the claimed beings, reluctance to imagine that something unknown caused what is known, and the idea that even if a god exists, it is so far beyond us as to be irrelevant to our affairs.[/QUOTE] [URL="http://atheism.about.com/od/atheismhistory/a/PrimitiveAtheismSkepticism.htm"]Source[/URL] So there you go. An atheist society and an agnostic society at that.
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[QUOTE=Sickle;34750753]You're taking that from the guy who just mentioned those words a few posts up. With the advance of society and science, religion will no longer be needed by the masses. Humanity moves on from things that provide no benefit.[/QUOTE] You're a fucking idiot if you can't see how religion has benefited society. There are lots of charities organized under it, just for one example. Stop being an anti-theistic asshole and maybe you'll see how religion is just another organization just like politics or any other thing out there.
[QUOTE=ECrownofFire;34753669]You're a fucking idiot if you can't see how religion has benefited society. There are lots of charities organized under it, just for one example. Stop being an anti-theistic asshole and maybe you'll see how religion is just another organization just like politics or any other thing out there.[/QUOTE] And you really think that the reason why these organizations were established because of religion? Religion,has [B]never[/B] benefited or helped society in any way. It only disintegrated it,caused needless violence,wars,ignorance and hatred. And no sir,he's not an idiot for thinking religion has never done any good for society,it is merely your ignorance.
[QUOTE=ECrownofFire;34753669]You're a fucking idiot if you can't see how religion has benefited society. There are lots of charities organized under it, just for one example. Stop being an anti-theistic asshole and maybe you'll see how religion is just another organization just like politics or any other thing out there.[/QUOTE] Since when does religion hold a monoply over charity?
[QUOTE=The_J_Hat;34750210]Satan was created not to be evil, but instead became evil and challenged God, thus creating a schism in Heaven and in the end, Satan and his followers were sent to Hell.[/QUOTE] Yeah and I'm saying that if God would have forseen this happening, then the story makes no sense.
[QUOTE=Noble;34755119]Yeah and I'm saying that if God would have forseen this happening, then the story makes no sense.[/QUOTE] Well perhaps God did forsee it? What indicates that he didn't? I believe the point of the Satan story is all about free will and how you may be evil but will then be punished for it, if you see what I mean.
[QUOTE=MrJazzy;34755168]Well perhaps God did forsee it? What indicates that he didn't? I believe the point of the Satan story is all about free will and how you may be evil but will then be punished for it, if you see what I mean.[/QUOTE] If God could see this, then why didn't he prevent it? Surely it would have been better if he did.
[QUOTE=Patriarch;34755200]If God could see this, then why didn't he prevent it? Surely it would have been better if he did.[/QUOTE] Yeah it's a good question, but then wouldn't he be restricting free will?
[QUOTE=MrJazzy;34755168]Well perhaps God did forsee it? What indicates that he didn't? I believe the point of the Satan story is all about free will and how you may be evil but will then be punished for it, if you see what I mean.[/QUOTE] Well I'm not sure if you read my posts on the last page or not, but I've been arguing that free will can't possibly exist if god is all knowing. [quote] If god exists outside of time and space then the concept of past, present, and future doesn't exist for him, all events are known to him simultaneously. If your future is known by god you can't act otherwise than what is already known by god and you don't have free will, just the illusion of it.[/quote] [QUOTE=MrJazzy;34755228]Yeah it's a good question, but then wouldn't he be restricting free will?[/QUOTE] So why did he kill off the entire world's population in the flood? Didn't he restrict their supposed "free will"?
[QUOTE=MrJazzy;34755228]Yeah it's a good question, but then wouldn't he be restricting free will?[/QUOTE] It wouldn't be restricting free will if he had been able to prevent it himself.
Ah yeah I didn't read the last page. That's a very good point and I can't argue against it. [editline]18th February 2012[/editline] Those are good points*
[QUOTE=matsta;34745415]Never said that. What I actually said is that for a grown man to not-believe in god he has to actively reject the concept, because, in this society he will very probably be exposed to the idea of god somewhere in his childhood or adolescence. And actually, I think it's in the nature of human beings to develop the concept of a 'higher deity' or a 'higher order'. And the proof is that religion is present in almost every society known.[/QUOTE] It's not human nature to believe in a God, it's human nature to look for control in what is essentially a chaotic system, we impart order where there is none.
[QUOTE=Noble;34755238] So why did he kill off the entire world's population in the flood? Didn't he restrict their supposed "free will"?[/QUOTE] the more important question that nobody ever asks is 'why didn't anyone else's boat work?' and also 'how did Noah, a 600 year old man, manage to take on a project of that magnitude?'
[QUOTE=strayebyrd;34755661]the more important question that nobody ever asks is 'why didn't anyone else's boat work?' and also 'how did Noah, a 600 year old man, manage to take on a project of that magnitude?'[/QUOTE] You silly heritic, we have no need for logic when we have faith!
[QUOTE=strayebyrd;34755661]the more important question that nobody ever asks is 'why didn't anyone else's boat work?' and also 'how did Noah, a 600 year old man, manage to take on a project of that magnitude?'[/QUOTE] Logic≠bible
[QUOTE=strayebyrd;34755661]the more important question that nobody ever asks is 'why didn't anyone else's boat work?' and also 'how did Noah, a 600 year old man, manage to take on a project of that magnitude?'[/QUOTE] I think he had like 100 sons do all the work for him or something. [editline]18th February 2012[/editline] But they were probably 400 years old too.
[QUOTE=Patriarch;34755200]If God could see this, then why didn't he prevent it?[/QUOTE] That's so fucking stupid what you just said. "If God WAS alive, then explain WHY we have so much SHIT in our world, which is ALL Human's doings, so we are not any better off WITHOUT God either!"
[QUOTE=Bat-shit;34757240]That's so fucking stupid what you just said. "If God WAS alive, then explain WHY we have so much SHIT in our world, which is ALL Human's doings, so we are not any better off WITHOUT God either!"[/QUOTE] I don't really understand anything you said below the first line.
Patriarch ^ lol nvm. [QUOTE=Bat-shit;34741796]After all, God is a product of the human mind, like many other things. And few hundred millions years ago, there was no sin, atheism or even human yet, just wild fucking life.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=EurofanBMW;34742004]That's a theory.[/QUOTE] Doesn't make it any less true.
[QUOTE=Bat-shit;34757377]Patriarch ^ lol nvm.[/QUOTE] No, come on, tell me. Clearly you structured the sentence in such a way that my dummy brain could not even hope to process it. Could you repeat it, but in a way that uses less syllables and more acronyms like the ones you just used?
Uhh.. Just that, you (plural) seem to be thinking like this; "Why did a deadly flood (ie.) happen when God could have just prevented it?" when [b]God[/b] himself is never going to do or affect anything that happens on our planet. Just a mere artifice to make big changes in a lot of people, .. and stuff
[QUOTE=Bat-shit;34757548]Uhh.. Just that, you (plural) seem to be thinking like this; "Why did a deadly flood (ie.) happen when God could have just prevented it?" when [b]God[/b] himself is never going to do or affect anything that happens on our planet. Just a mere artifice to make big changes in a lot of people, .. and stuff[/QUOTE] You're still not making any sense to me. You're not giving a valid reason as to why God doesn't intervene.
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