• Are we too hard on Religion?
    629 replies, posted
The major problem with religion is that it profoundly enforces an agenda that is harmful specifically to those that are not considered "normal" by society at both the given time that the religion is formed and at the present moment should that religion still be practiced. We hear of three major things being told of in religious texts: 1) Divine beings, 2) How we came about, and, 3) Morality. Number one simply proposes that there is a master at work, controlling and forming our world as well as ourselves. This proposition was accepted because for the longest time in the history of human civilization, we had always had some sort of monarch or alpha-male watching over us. It was what we were used to, and therefore it made sense. Number two is simply an explanation for the creation of the universe. Going hand-in-hand with the ruling monarchy point I made earlier, since kings built cities and nations, (yes, technically their underlings did, but these people pretty much never received credit when it was due) the idea of something having always been (other than a god) had been a foreign idea and therefore creationism was an essential philosophical viewpoint at the time. Number three is a set of rules imposed on the religion's followers that are used to distinguish "right" from "wrong" in society. Many times, morality is seen as intrinsically good, because we only view morality as a principle of good things to do instead of a distinguishing system of both good and bad. Morality establishes social norms which, in conjunction with the ruling elite point I made earlier, work to the advantage of religious demagogues and established (or very nearly established) governments and align with the viewpoints of said demagogues/officials. The essential conclusion to then be made (in my opinion) is that religion has in the past simply been a system scripted to keep people in check. We see this most obviously in the Hindi caste system, where people are supposedly born into poverty or riches due to the actions of a past life. We see this slightly less so in extremist Islamic culture where non-Muslims are seen as Infidels and those that don't conform to the poorly-aligned and obviously biased viewpoint of religious authors are doomed to be persecuted if not simply murdered. And less obviously we see it in the Christian religion, where a social norm of Christian heterosexual male (CHM for short, I guess) dominance is presented via not only implied glorification of the CHM, but also explicity calls for persecution and inferior treatment of "lesser" individuals. So why, then, is this being enforced? Power. Greed. Manipulation. Obviously, religions have gone through several changes that have made them more tolerance oriented and love-slanted. But until we destroy this facade of "morality" in these systems, we end up doomed to drift to and from different morally-acceptable societal norms, and these norms will most definitely be exploited by those willing to do so for their own personal pleasure. One could even go so far as to say that the theist-oriented concept of creation was specifically included in this code of morality in order to conform people to the idea of a monarchistic ruler as well as an all-knowing, superior enforcing body of this moral code. Think about it, if someone's standing over you with a gun pointed to your head telling you to follow a set of rules, you're obviously exponentially more likely to follow them. What if the gun doesn't have bullets? Doesn't matter, there [I]could[/I] be a bullet in that chamber and most people are (reasonably so) not willing to take that chance. Then you get into the idea of spreading religion, where religious figures request that you spread your message so that you save other people from this person with a firearm trained at the head of every individual. And so when someone tries to stand up and challenge the person on whether or not they're a real threat, everyone screams for them to sit down. Sometimes, people are even taught that allowing someone to be killed will mean their death as well. In which case you then have people violently and oppressively [I]forcing[/I] skeptics to sit down. Are you seeing what I'm getting at here? This system of a god, of a religion, of a moral code, it has always been in some way shape or form, even if in very small amounts, inhabited by a group of people who want to bend a philosophy of how we were made into a system of control that tells us how to think and how to live. A system that develops a social hierarchy and then conforms us to it in the same package. So even if a religion was created with the best of intentions, it will inevitably be manipulated into a method of gaining power over people. Just my two-cents. Who knows, I might be a crazy idiot.
[QUOTE=Meller Yeller;34690532]Honestly, even if religion was never to exist for some reason, the world wouldn't be any better off when you think about it. Religion is usually just used as a front to an entirely different motive like greed or lust anyways. If people didn't have religion it would just be something else.[/QUOTE] Exactly this and nothing else. Say anything else and you're ignoring the facts that people do good and bad regardless of what religion says. [editline]13th February 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=joes33431;34690743]:words:[/QUOTE] So basically it's politics. More specifically, the premise of a religion is nothing bad at all. It's when you get dickheads in control of it... Again, politics.
So does nobody else think of religion as brainwashing? I really hate religion being taught to children. It's fine if you make the choice yourself at an age where you have the intelligence and critical thinking to make your own choices, but teaching a child about religion is simply taking advantage of their gullibility. I don't think religion is a free choice when you're raised with it, I think it's something that should not be available until you're old enough to make the choice to be religious yourself. Seeing children in churches and religious gatherings makes me sick.
[QUOTE=Simski;34690797]So does nobody else think of religion as brainwashing? I really hate religion being taught to children. It's fine if you make the choice yourself at an age where you have the intelligence and critical thinking to make your own choices, but teaching a child about religion is simply taking advantage of their gullibility. I don't think religion is a free choice when you're raised with it, I think it's something that should not be available until you're old enough to make the choice to be religious yourself. Seeing children in churches and religious gatherings makes me sick.[/QUOTE] Religion isn't brainwashing; [I]religious brainwashing[/I] is brainwashing.
[QUOTE=Simski;34690797]So does nobody else think of religion as brainwashing? I really hate religion being taught to children. It's fine if you make the choice yourself at an age where you have the intelligence and critical thinking to make your own choices, but teaching a child about religion is simply taking advantage of their gullibility. I don't think religion is a free choice when you're raised with it, I think it's something that should not be available until you're old enough to make the choice to be religious yourself. Seeing children in churches and religious gatherings makes me sick.[/QUOTE] Read: Indoctrination. It's pretty sick to see it go on. I'd watch my cousins go through it and be like, 'nope'. [editline]14th February 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=yawmwen;34690573]Hey buddy, that's not secularization. Secularization implies freedom to worship as you please.[/QUOTE] Except it doesn't. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secularization[/url] [QUOTE]Secularization (or secularisation) is the transformation of a society from close identification with religious values and institutions toward non-religious (or "irreligious") values and secular institutions. Secularization thesis refers to the belief that as societies "progress", particularly through modernization and rationalization, religion loses its authority in all aspects of social life and governance.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE][B]Web definitions[/B] The activity of changing something (art or education or society or morality etc.) so it is no longer under the control or influence of religion A process in which religious consciousness, activities, and institutions lose social significance The declining influence of religion in society.[/QUOTE] Thanks for playing.
[QUOTE=Sickle;34691124] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secularization[/url] [/QUOTE] Well fuck me. I thought secularization only applied to government.
[quote]Are we too hard on Religion?[/quote] [img]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-KzhTH8044o4/TuVgSk3APMI/AAAAAAAAB2Y/KAkxMzQ1i4E/s1600/crusades221.jpeg[/img] [img]http://cloud.frontpagemag.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/tropas-nazis.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.wizardsfamiliar.com/WitchHunt/WitchHunt.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.thenoseonyourface.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/stoning-iran.gif[/img] [img]http://www.thegaymanifesto.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/leviticus2013.jpg[/img] No, not really.
[QUOTE=ECrownofFire;34690845]Religion isn't brainwashing; [I]religious brainwashing[/I] is brainwashing.[/QUOTE] Well tell me how many religious people are truly religious by choice. How many of them went from not having a religion, to choosing to have a religion. Versus those who are raised to be religious, who are told it is the truth, and that are taught not to doubt. Unlike people who say that "Science and religon are not incompatible", I disagree. Religion teaches us to not doubt and to have belief, science teaches us to always doubt what we can't prove. It is because of this that science allows us to progress, because truth comes from questioning the uncertain.
[QUOTE=Simski;34692198]Well tell me how many religious people are truly religious by choice. How many of them went from not having a religion, to choosing to have a religion. Versus those who are raised to be religious, who are told it is the truth, and that are taught not to doubt.[/QUOTE] So because some people are indoctrinated, religion=brainwashing? Or do you think that every religious person became religious through indoctrination? [QUOTE=Simski;34692198]Unlike people who say that "Science and religon are not incompatible", I disagree. Religion teaches us to not doubt and to have belief, science teaches us to always doubt what we can't prove. It is because of this that science allows us to progress, because truth comes from questioning the uncertain.[/QUOTE] I personally don't see why having unprovable views on what exists beyond the physical universe, should affect my ability to look at the physical universe scientifically. I'm capable of irrational thought, but does that mean I'm incapable of rational thought?
[QUOTE=st0rmforce;34693323]I personally don't see why having unprovable views on what exists beyond the physical universe, should affect my ability to look at the physical universe scientifically. I'm capable of irrational thought, but does that mean I'm incapable of rational thought?[/QUOTE] So you have no way of knowing what exists outside of the universe (if there is a 'domain' outside of the universe). What sense does it make to get down on your knees begging God for his mercy, as if you are so utterly convinced that he is real?
[QUOTE=Noble;34693459]So you have no way of knowing what exists outside of the universe (if there is a 'domain' outside of the universe). What sense does it make to get down on your knees begging God for his mercy, as if you are so utterly convinced that he is real?[/QUOTE] What if I am utterly convinced he's real?
[QUOTE=st0rmforce;34693806]What if I am utterly convinced he's real?[/QUOTE] Then you're delusional.
[QUOTE=st0rmforce;34693806]What if I am utterly convinced he's real?[/QUOTE] How are you so convinced?
[QUOTE=st0rmforce;34693323]So because some people are indoctrinated, religion=brainwashing[/QUOTE]Yes. It's teaching a child about something that can not be proved true, and telling them that they should not be doubtful of what they believe in. They are naturally more inclined to believe you, because they trust you as an adult, and have not developed critical thinking to make their own decisions. Taking advantage of a child's gullible nature in that way, is wrong in the same way as a pedophile raising their child to be comfortable with sexual actions. [QUOTE=st0rmforce;34693323]Or do you think that every religious person became religious through indoctrination?[/QUOTE]I do not, and the ones who became religious by choice at an age where they had developed enough to make the decision entirely by their own will without the influence of their upbringing are the only religious people I will ever respect. [QUOTE=st0rmforce;34693323]I personally don't see why having unprovable views on what exists beyond the physical universe, should affect my ability to look at the physical universe scientifically. I'm capable of irrational thought, but does that mean I'm incapable of rational thought?[/QUOTE] If no organized religion existed, religion by all means would never be an issue for anyone and it would not matter in the least what anyone believed. However religions like Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism and the likes all have one very essential thing in common, they all dictate the way you should think and live your life.
[QUOTE=Noble;34693896]How are you so convinced?[/QUOTE] Sorry I meant to put quotes round the "utterly convinced". I assumed that "down on your knees begging for mercy" was an overly dramatic reference to prayer, so I took "utterly convinced" as "believe he exists and hears prayers". If you were being literal, I've never actually got down on my knees and begged for mercy, I tend to pray sitting or standing. I think that "knowing" and "believing" can be separate things. [QUOTE=LCBADs;34693840]Then you're delusional.[/QUOTE] Thanks sweety. I'll print that out and put it with the rest.
[QUOTE=st0rmforce;34693323]So because some people are indoctrinated, religion=brainwashing? Or do you think that every religious person became religious through indoctrination? [/QUOTE] Pretty much, yes. Most people who are religious are religious because of their parents. If they had been born in India they would be a Hindu, Buddhist if they were in China, or they'd believe in Zeus if they were from Ancient Greece. But since they're born in the US they believe in Jesus. I don't think most people choose Christianity based on its merits, but because they've had it shoved down their throat since they were a child. And children are known to be easily manipulated. [editline]14th February 2012[/editline] I mean how often do you see a kid who becomes Hindu in the US who has Christian parents. Isn't it kind of odd that so many people take on the religion of their parents? Fortunately, these days people can choose atheism even though their parents still try pushing Christianity onto them.
[QUOTE=st0rmforce;34693323]I personally don't see why having unprovable views on what exists beyond the physical universe, should affect my ability to look at the physical universe scientifically.[/QUOTE] Nice way to assume there is something beyond the physical. [editline]14th February 2012[/editline] Tell me, is there a sphere of Ether beyond space that souls fly into??
[QUOTE=yuki;34692050] [img]http://cloud.frontpagemag.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/tropas-nazis.jpg[/img] No, not really.[/QUOTE] You're going to have to explain to me how the Nazis (who basically replaced the Bible with Mein Kampf) and their atrocities and them starting WWII in Europe was majorly connected to religion.
[QUOTE=LiquidNazgul;34697658]You're going to have to explain to me how the Nazis (who basically replaced the Bible with Mein Kampf) and their atrocities and them starting WWII in Europe was majorly connected to religion.[/QUOTE] [quote]I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord's work. - Adolf Hitler, Speech, Reichstag, 1936[/quote] Here's some more [url]http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/AdolfHitlerFaithGod.htm[/url]
[QUOTE=Noble;34698469]Here's some more [URL]http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/AdolfHitlerFaithGod.htm[/URL][/QUOTE] Well the problem with cases like this is people using religion as a means to justify their actions, not religion itself. If religion didn't exist, then the excuse would just be replaced with another moral code.
Religion is good in places where people have a hard time doing hard time.
[QUOTE=LiquidNazgul;34697658]You're going to have to explain to me how the Nazis (who basically replaced the Bible with Mein Kampf) and their atrocities and them starting WWII in Europe was majorly connected to religion.[/QUOTE] they traded one religion for another?
Alright, so first off; I don't like organized religion... Catholicism, Judaism, Islam, and any other organization that is followed by the masses today. I think it leaves too much room for manipulation and corruption to fester. I don't think they should have any place in today's world with the knowledge and understanding that we have today. It's even ironic how they preach against one aspect and live under it at the same time, yet no one judges merely because of the status of the institution. With that said; Religion or Spiritual Belief, I wholeheartedly encourage. We shouldn't restrict it in the least. If someone wants to believe something, let them. Who are we to say what goes on in the head of another? It's only when you start to do that, do I raise an issue.
[QUOTE=PvtCupcakes;34694818]Pretty much, yes. Most people who are religious are religious because of their parents. If they had been born in India they would be a Hindu, Buddhist if they were in China, or they'd believe in Zeus if they were from Ancient Greece. But since they're born in the US they believe in Jesus. I don't think most people choose Christianity based on its merits, but because they've had it shoved down their throat since they were a child. And children are known to be easily manipulated. [editline]14th February 2012[/editline] I mean how often do you see a kid who becomes Hindu in the US who has Christian parents. Isn't it kind of odd that so many people take on the religion of their parents? Fortunately, these days people can choose atheism even though their parents still try pushing Christianity onto them.[/QUOTE] Well to be fair Buddhism doesn't [I]quite[/I] operate the same way as the others, but otherwise yes.
[QUOTE=JGillo;34699253]Well the problem with cases like this is people using religion as a means to justify their actions, not religion itself. If religion didn't exist, then the excuse would just be replaced with another moral code.[/QUOTE] Exactly. You could not have said it any better. All these people saying "wel uh.. religunz cauz warz and hatrid and stuf" really just need to keep their stupid opinions to themselves. I don't really even know if their "opinions" can be considered opinions because they're just that absurd. At least half of the atheists I've seen in this thread that claim "religions cause violence" don't realize that even if religion had not existed during WWII or other major (or even minor) acts of violence that there would still be wars and such. You people are acting like atheism is this almighty solution to bringing peace to planet Earth. Long story short, bad PEOPLE use religion to control others - not the religion itself. Also, drop the whole thing with "hurr crischin preestz raep boyz" because that's just fucking stupid. It's a dumb cliche some teenage atheist made up in an attempt to make priests look like the "bad guys". I can guarantee you there are VERY few cases in which priests rape kids in today's world.
[QUOTE=yuki;34692050][IMG]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-KzhTH8044o4/TuVgSk3APMI/AAAAAAAAB2Y/KAkxMzQ1i4E/s1600/crusades221.jpeg[/IMG] [IMG]http://cloud.frontpagemag.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/tropas-nazis.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.wizardsfamiliar.com/WitchHunt/WitchHunt.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.thenoseonyourface.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/stoning-iran.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.thegaymanifesto.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/leviticus2013.jpg[/IMG] No, not really.[/QUOTE] 1. The crusades weren't religiously motivated. They were really land grabs made by power hungry officials and religion was only used as a motivater to get people rallied up (i.e. a misuse of religion). 2. The Nazis weren't religiously motivated and they persecuted Catholics, Jews, anybody they could find that they didn't like. 3. The Witch Trials were instigated by more power hungry people in the Puritain colonies and such. The claims that there were witches was why religion got involved because that was a heresy. 4. Woman getting buried in the ground because she has a different belief. That typically doesn't happen in places where there's a seperation of Church and State. That happens when dicks get into power of countries and use the religion like a weapon with no tolerance. 5. Leviticus was written in a different time when the Jews were a fledgling society who had to grow. They didn't want their growth to be impeded by people fucking goats and whatnot, so the laws there were written.
[QUOTE=The_J_Hat;34702406]1. The crusades weren't religiously motivated. They were really land grabs made by power hungry officials and religion was only used as a motivater to get people rallied up (i.e. a misuse of religion). 2. The Nazis weren't religiously motivated and they persecuted Catholics, Jews, anybody they could find that they didn't like. 3. The Witch Trials were instigated by more power hungry people in the Puritain colonies and such. The claims that there were witches was why religion got involved because that was a heresy. 4. Woman getting buried in the ground because she has a different belief. That typically doesn't happen in places where there's a seperation of Church and State. That happens when dicks get into power of countries and use the religion like a weapon with no tolerance. 5. Leviticus was written in a different time when the Jews were a fledgling society who had to grow. They didn't want their growth to be impeded by people fucking goats and whatnot, so the laws there were written.[/QUOTE] More source, less random negatives.
Also, that Hitler quote posted by Noble was Hitler trying to win the hearts and minds of a fearful, Christian community. He was an atheist himself. His statement was redundant.
Misuse of religion is true, though
[QUOTE=The_J_Hat;34702523]Also, that Hitler quote posted by Noble was Hitler trying to win the hearts and minds of a fearful, Christian community. [B]He was an atheist himself.[/B] His statement was redundant.[/QUOTE] Source.
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