• Free health care
    449 replies, posted
[QUOTE=QuikKill;36441039]I don't see taxes as violence like that nutjob GenPol, but It's hard for me to grasp paying for lazy people and criminals while me and my dad bust our ass paying for it.[/QUOTE] Wait what, GenPol is for taxation isn't he? Taxes are undeniably coercive. If you don't pay your taxes you get forcibly detained.
[QUOTE=QuikKill;36441039]I don't see taxes as violence like that nutjob GenPol, but It's hard for me to grasp paying for lazy people and criminals while me and my dad bust our ass paying for it.[/QUOTE] Yeah because anyone with a wage lower than $40,000 must be lazy. [editline]22nd June 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Robbobin;36441555]Wait what, GenPol is for taxation isn't he? Taxes are undeniably coercive. If you don't pay your taxes you get forcibly detained.[/QUOTE] Coercive or not, as long as it is done in a controlled manner by an elected government, I see no problem. You only make money because society exists for you to make that money, I think it's only fair you give a bit back.
[QUOTE=Robbobin;36441555]Wait what, GenPol is for taxation isn't he? Taxes are undeniably coercive. If you don't pay your taxes you get forcibly detained.[/QUOTE] Forcibly detained? This isn't the 1300s where peasants rose up to rebel against taxes and their lords.
[QUOTE=Robbobin;36441555]Wait what, GenPol is for taxation isn't he? Taxes are undeniably coercive. If you don't pay your taxes you get forcibly detained.[/QUOTE] Not quite sure, he was just spewing a lot of crap about how taxes are being coerced on us or something. [QUOTE=carcarcargo;36441594]Yeah because anyone with a wage lower than $40,000 must be lazy.[/QUOTE] Aren't you one to put words in peoples mouths aren't you? Clearly you live in a different area than me. Where I live, I know over 20 people who do nothing everyday except leech of the welfare and unemployment system. Why should they get healthcare too? Yea, I get it, recession, times are tough. But arrogance is at play here too. When my dad's work was slow and was losing money, did he do nothing? No, he got a job that was less than half of his current wage. Why? Because a little money is better than no money at all.
[QUOTE=QuikKill;36441856] Aren't you one to put words in peoples mouths aren't you? Clearly you live in a different area than me. Where I live, I know over 20 people who do nothing everyday except leech of the welfare and unemployment system. Why should they get healthcare too? Yea, I get it, recession, times are tough. But arrogance is at play here too. When my dad's work was slow and was losing money, did he do nothing? No, he got a job that was less than half of his current wage. Why? Because a little money is better than no money at all.[/QUOTE] That's pretty anecdotal, a lot of the people on benefits are usually looking for jobs or got kicked out of their jobs, no point ruining it for everyone just because of a lazy few.
people respond to incentives if you pay people to be poor they will stay poor anyway isn't this starting to become a little bit offtopic?
[QUOTE=Kentz;36442017]people respond to incentives if you pay people to be poor they will stay poor[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=carcarcargo;36441911]That's pretty anecdotal, a lot of the people on benefits are usually looking for jobs or got kicked out of their jobs, no point ruining it for everyone just because of a lazy few.[/QUOTE] I know these people, and they aren't trying. Kentz said it perfect. Why should they work when they can get paid 400 a week?
[QUOTE=Kentz;36442017]people respond to incentives if you pay people to be poor they will stay poor anyway isn't this starting to become a little bit offtopic?[/QUOTE] It's hardly "paying" them to be poor. The money from benefits systems is usually just enough to clothe, feed and house someone. Luxuries aren't exactly commonplace. Though the benefits system in the UK at least is quite easy to abuse as evidenced by most of my town.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;36441650]Forcibly detained? This isn't the 1300s where peasants rose up to rebel against taxes and their lords.[/QUOTE] Huh? If you refuse to pay your taxes, eventually you'd get put in prison... what is that, if not forceful detainment? Taxes are coercive; there's seriously no way of rationally disputing this point.
[QUOTE=hexpunK;36442304]It's hardly "paying" them to be poor. The money from benefits systems is usually just enough to clothe, feed and house someone. Luxuries aren't exactly commonplace. Though the benefits system in the UK at least is quite easy to abuse as evidenced by most of my town.[/QUOTE] its still free money for not doing anything if you have a guy not taking care of his car and you give him a new car he is not going to take of that one either, just doesnt work. [editline]22nd June 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=QuikKill;36442179]I know these people, and they aren't trying. Kentz said it perfect. Why should they work when they can get paid 400 a week?[/QUOTE] and then when less people work theres not enough money to supply those who "need it", and the entire system collapses. you know of course after they printed fiat money at will and caused inflation
[QUOTE=Robbobin;36442343]Taxes are coercive; there's seriously no way of rationally disputing this point. [/QUOTE] If this is the case, then why do people happily pay taxes to support various services?
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;36443782]If this is the case, then why do people happily pay taxes to support various services?[/QUOTE] if people would pay their taxes happily at will then there is no need to use force but oh wait if you dont you are put in jail but if you wanted to know why people happily pay their taxes, well i would assume generations of taxes and state propaganda its a bit like asking why people prior to late 19th century had no problems with slavery
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;36443782]If this is the case, then why do people happily pay taxes to support various services?[/QUOTE] If this were the case the state wouldn't have to use threats of physical violence to make sure you do it... I don't understand why anyone is even trying to contest me. It's an indisputable fact that the state uses coercion to make you pay your taxes. You can't sensibly argue that it doesn't.
[QUOTE=QuikKill;36442179]I know these people, and they aren't trying. Kentz said it perfect. Why should they work when they can get paid 400 a week?[/QUOTE] Nobody gets paid £400 a week its more around £60 a week. [editline]22nd June 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Robbobin;36443978]If this were the case the state wouldn't have to use threats of physical violence to make sure you do it... I don't understand why anyone is even trying to contest me. It's an indisputable fact that the state uses coercion to make you pay your taxes. You can't sensibly argue that it doesn't.[/QUOTE] I love how you use the term "physical violence" to make it sound like they go in an beat people up if they don't pay taxes
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;36443782]If this is the case, then why do people happily pay taxes to support various services?[/QUOTE] Are you serious? I don't think a lot of people happily pay a % of their salary for a service they might not even need and why does the government use force if you refuse to pay taxes if everyone is so happy to pay them? [QUOTE=carcarcargo;36444848]I love how you use the term "physical violence" to make it sound like they go in an beat people up if they don't pay taxes[/QUOTE] So breaking into my home using violence to pin me down with steel cuffs and dragging me away in a police car to lock me in a cell and then keeping me locked inside a building with the chances of being shot if I try to leave is not physical violence? Okay.
[QUOTE=Robbi;36445195]So breaking into my home using violence to pin me down with steel cuffs and dragging me away in a police car to lock me in a cell and then keeping me locked inside a building with the chances of being shot if I try to leave is not physical violence? Okay.[/QUOTE] They uhh...they don't "break into" your home and pin you down. They first ask politely that you pay your taxes, fine you, then come to your property to talk to you about it. Eventually you will be arrested, but it's not a vicious beatdown. They request legal permission to enter, if you resist or refuse entry, then yeah, they bust your door down. If you put up a fight, then yeah, you get pinned down. If you don't and just stop being a ~rebel~ for two minutes, you get quite a polite arrest as you aren't a threat to them. So sensationalising everything. This is a area of serious, factual debate, sensationalising stuff is the polar opposite.
[QUOTE=hexpunK;36445687]They uhh...they don't "break into" your home and pin you down. They first ask politely that you pay your taxes, fine you, then come to your property to talk to you about it. Eventually you will be arrested, but it's not a vicious beatdown. They request legal permission to enter, if you resist or refuse entry, then yeah, they bust your door down. If you put up a fight, then yeah, you get pinned down. If you don't and just stop being a ~rebel~ for two minutes, you get quite a polite arrest as you aren't a threat to them.[/QUOTE] So you think that if a criminal comes up to you and asks you politely for your wallet you think he is being nice and you should cooperate?
I'm gonna turn up at someone's house tomorrow, ask them politely to give me 20% of their earnings (I'll buy them some healthy nutritious food for them and their neighbours, keep enough to pay for my labour time (let's say £7 an hour - basically minimum wage - for my work), and put the rest to cancer research or something. If they refuse, I'll come back in a couple of weeks. Then if they still refuse, I'll tie them up in cable ties and lock them up in my basement for being immoral and refusing to help society, the selfish cunts.
[QUOTE=Robbi;36445971]So you think that if a criminal comes up to you and asks you politely for your wallet you think he is being nice and you should cooperate?[/QUOTE] Hey, if he asks politely first there's less chance I'm going to get stabbed is all I'm saying. If someone is calm enough to ask you politely to do something, then it's more likely they won't cause much more trouble.If you piss someone off by not co-operating they are more likely to get vicious. But comparing a arrest to a mugging is fucking retarded anyway. The police are doing their job, a mugger is just after your belongings. Of fucking course I wouldn't comply to a mugger unless he had me by the balls and could severely injure me anyway, I care more about surviving than my money in the long run after all (again thank you universal healthcare for looking after me when the mugger does beat me and take my money).
[QUOTE=hexpunK;36446168]Hey, if he asks politely first there's less chance I'm going to get stabbed is all I'm saying. If someone is calm enough to ask you politely to do something, then it's more likely they won't cause much more trouble.If you piss someone off by not co-operating they are more likely to get vicious. But comparing a arrest to a mugging is fucking retarded anyway. The police are doing their job, a mugger is just after your belongings. Of fucking course I wouldn't comply to a mugger unless he had me by the balls and could severely injure me anyway, I care more about surviving than my money in the long run after all (again thank you universal healthcare for looking after me when the mugger does beat me and take my money).[/QUOTE] They're just "doing their job" which entails coercively restraining people. "Doing your job" isn't any justification for anything.
[QUOTE=Robbobin;36446237]They're just "doing their job" which entails coercively restraining people. "Doing your job" isn't any justification for anything.[/QUOTE] Yeah but they do it because without taxes people like you would leave people to die without healthcare so I'd say it's fairly justified.
I'm not sure why you think I'd leave people to die... I've stated on numerous occasions that I'd be happy to pay a voluntary healthcare tax if I had the income. I'd do my bit, but I don't want to be part of a system where we coerce everyone else into conforming to the same values as me.
[QUOTE=Robbobin;36447131]I'm not sure why you think I'd leave people to die... I've stated on numerous occasions that I'd be happy to pay a voluntary healthcare tax if I had the income. I'd do my bit, but I don't want to be part of a system where we coerce everyone else into conforming to the same values as me.[/QUOTE] sacrifice is a big part of helping others. there are those that would rather work to help others than to help themselves, and vice versa. this entire debate really is down to how much you're willing to give to help another, and as far as i'm concerned i would give everything away to help another human on this planet.
[QUOTE=Bobie;36448121]sacrifice is a big part of helping others. there are those that would rather work to help others than to help themselves, and vice versa. this entire debate really is down to how much you're willing to give to help another, and as far as i'm concerned i would give everything away to help another human on this planet.[/QUOTE] What if someone doesn't want to help people. Why should they be forced to pay?
[QUOTE=Bobie;36448121]sacrifice is a big part of helping others. there are those that would rather work to help others than to help themselves, and vice versa. this entire debate really is down to how much you're willing to give to help another, and as far as i'm concerned i would give everything away to help another human on this planet.[/QUOTE] Well people should have the freedom to sacrifice themselves if they really want to. But forcing everyone else on the planet to do it too is an entirely different proposition.
[QUOTE=Kentz;36443804]its a bit like asking why people prior to late 19th century had no problems with slavery[/QUOTE] You actually made a comparison between supporting slavery and taxation, wow. [editline]23rd June 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Robbi;36448290]What if someone doesn't want to help people. Why should they be forced to pay?[/QUOTE] Because everything they have done and achieved has been made possible through the help of other people, whether it be indirectly or directly. A brazen refusal to help others is pretty indicative of being sociopathic. [editline]23rd June 2012[/editline] Also stop with the ridiculous hyperbole when trying to compare taxation to things
[QUOTE=Lonestriper;36449184]You actually made a comparison between supporting slavery and taxation, wow.[/QUOTE] God I hate when people say things like this. If you think the comparison is crazy than it should be easy to show how it doesn't work.
The commodification of a person as a good to be bought and sold does not equal a system whereby a portion of everyone's labour is used for the upkeep of society. Any resemblance between the two is wholly contrived.
[QUOTE=Lonestriper;36449184]Because everything they have done and achieved has been made possible through the help of other people, whether it be indirectly or directly. A brazen refusal to help others is pretty indicative of being sociopathic.[/QUOTE] So what? Maybe I want to hoard all my money to my self and only support my self. Why should I not be able to do that? Does it matter if its sociopathic?
[QUOTE=Robbi;36450472]So what? Maybe I want to hoard all my money to my self and only support my self. Why should I not be able to do that? Does it matter if its sociopathic?[/QUOTE] You can do that to a degree, but seeing as any wealth earned was done so through the help of others and therefore can be seen as the wealth of everyone it only makes sense to contribute back to the system which creates this wealth, whether it be forced or not. Having citizenship of a country which outlines the governments rights to taxation in its constitution is further indicative of why you shouldn't be allowed to not, seeing as you are bound to it as long as you maintain citizenship in that country. Also this has taken the predictable turn of not being about UHC but rather anarcho-capitalism and its ideological tenets. Please present to me why whatever system you are pressing would be more beneficial than UHC, which I remind you, is a proven and tested system which works even in 3rd world countries.
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