• Suicide
    191 replies, posted
[QUOTE=J!NX;32472828]so basically, "Just let them kill themselves"? Doesn't that sound insanely irresponsible and childishly stupid in itself? What are you going to do when you see a guy on a building asking for your help? Say "Oh, your choice" and walk off?[/quote] No, it is more inhumane to acknowledged human rights. I'm confused with the guy on a building question because you didn't make it very implicit that he was going to commit suicide. Assuming I knew he was though, I would have no obligation in his affairs so I could continue walking. Or I could try to talking him out of it. Any measure of force would be off the table, and if he choose to jump regardless of my talk, then I must allow it. [QUOTE=J!NX;32472828]You don't just "Let people kill themselves" just because their depressed, it IS a state of mental instability, [B]just saying "Its their choice" DOES encourage them to kill themselves and it hurts EVERYONE around them. Obviously when you tried killing yourself you didn't even realize that it'll harm everyone around you.[/B][/quote] Would you prefer for me to say "it's my choice" or "it's our choice". That wouldn't be factual though, unless you don't believe a person owns their own body. The second argument you're making equating legalization of an activity with endorsement. It is the same as making the claim that legalization of drugs would encourage drug use. This is done to associate a strong negative with a potential outcome. Regardless of outcome, this is an issue of rights. The "hurts everyone around them" argument is pretty laughable, not in that suicides don't usually have this affect, but that are so many issues with it. First you must assert that a person has a duty to not hurt everyone around them. Second, you have to apply this logic to far more than just suicide. I'm sure if I decided to become a prostitute that would "hurt everyone around me", yet again, unless I have some obligation (through contract) or I do not have a right to my body, this cannot be true. [QUOTE=J!NX;32472828]If you loved someone, and they were being picked on and wanted to kill themselves, you don't just "let them do it". It seems FP is full of people who are white knights towards other peoples choices and preach "100%, absolute tolerance", to an intolerably idiotic level.[/quote] Of course I'd try to talk them out. Being realistic, I'd go to great lengths to stop them. But I wouldn't ever use force against them. [QUOTE=J!NX;32472828]Letting someone understand that suicide is just a permanent fix to a very possibly temporary solution and edging them out of a state of mental instability and rehabilitating the issue is probably the best way to go. You guys preach about how the death penalty should be banned because murderers can be rehabilitated, and then you turn around and say "but just let people commit suicide" as if they're unfixable and broke and if they kill themselves then well, OH WELL, IT WAS THEIR CHOICE.[/quote] There is no issue with negotiating with people. But there is an issue with force, forcing them to stop, and forcing them to seek help. Your death penalty comparison makes little sense as the prisoner does not have a choice in the sentence they receive, it couldn't at all be linked to suicide, as the death penalty is force. [QUOTE=J!NX;32472828]There are some good reasons to kill yourself, then there are smaller reasons that are very easily fixable and you can grow out of. Some reasons are scarring for you and terrible, but if people actually support you, then you should be able to cope with it rather than scarring them for life. Simply saying "Its your choice", like I said, doesn't help anyone.[/quote] Who is the judge of what is easily fixable and when it acceptable to kill yourself? I think it is the individual. [QUOTE=J!NX;32472828][B]People who go through it and get over it know that its a useless option and don't just say "Its their choice". saying "Its your choice" is practically opposing the person from having a choice at all[/B], like they're worthless and alone in the world, and if they saw any pressure AGAINST it, they would normally decide against it. They're in such a state that they feel that its the only way. If you actually tried killing yourself, you'd know that. But no, your a white knight that preaches "its their choice" and says "You've never been depressed and you've never struggled with suicide." when you don't even fucking know me. Don't tell people that they haven't been through something as if you have some hidden knowledge, it makes it look like your just using that to look like you actually went through something.[/quote] Certainly telling someone there are two choices will make them believe there is actually only one choice. Despite the logic involved in developing such a conclusion, this would indicate that saying there is once choice (perhaps just living) is actually saying there are two choices. Nothing else you say in that paragraph is of value as it doesn't focus on the issue but rather on the subject of the response. [QUOTE=J!NX;32472828]and honestly, "Multiple failures", obviously, you had to have realized something afterwards, or have been STOPPED. you would've been in the state of hopelessness and loneliness to have even decided that in the first place. Telling someone thats about to kill themselves helps them understand that they aren't alone in the world. I've actually talked two people out of suicide by now, one of them I've even talked out of murder. They wanted to kill themselves because of one person making their life bad, and one wanted to kill that person. They felt alone, hopeless, and depressed all around, like it was the only way. By going "its your choice" they'd have killed themselves, it would be irresponsible, and irrationally stupid to tell them that.[/quote] Most of this is an appeal to emotion. I don't really understand though, how you negotiate with people who considering suicide doesn't really matter as long as it doesn't involve force. Granted that most people who look for help want to be talked out of it, yes it would make sense not to encourage it. Most of all, pointing out that it is their choice in a negation would be a bit obvious. [QUOTE=J!NX;32472828][url]http://www.stopasuicide.org/suicide.aspx[/url] [url]http://www.nmha.org/go/suicide[/url] [url]http://depts.washington.edu/mhreport/facts_suicide.php[/url] "Studies have shown that [B]over 90% of people who die from suicide have one or more psychiatric disorders at the time of their death[/B]. Luckily, there are ways to treat and control these disorders and potentially prevent suicide." And your telling them "Its their choice". They don't even realize what they are actually DOING. A psychotic disorder is where you can't see consequence, or reason at all.[/quote] And what about the 10% of people who don't? Most people in the thread are talking about rational, non drug or disease induced suicide. Even then, how this strip away someone's ownership of their own body and be able to attribute it to someone else? [QUOTE=J!NX;32472828]I know people that have been through war and a lot worse you know. He had his identity stolen more than once, he can't even leave the country because of that, he lives with crippled legs in a wheel chair with asshole room mates, but does he kill himself? No, thats stupid. Obviously its not an overnight thing to fix, but just killing yourself [B]doesn't fix it at all[/B], not only that, but it scars everyone around that suicide.[/QUOTE] How would this be considered a convincing argument?
[QUOTE=SCopE5000;32464123]Being truly in control of your mental state is easy once you know how, and it takes a lot of hard work andsheer effort to attain, which most people aren't willing to give. I think until you've hit the bottom of the barrel and had a truly bad experience, you don't realise that there's more to life than surface/decoration. Suicide is a tough call, whilst I'd say that it's their choice at the end of the day, everything CAN get better, and change begins within. I enjoy helping people with inner issues get back on track with their lives and start attaining mental superiority, so here's 4 words that I guarantee will speak volumes to you, if you realise the absolute 100% truth behind them:- 'This Moment Will Pass'.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;32467445]My friend was raped. 3 times, same night. She killed herself a year later. That moment NEVER passed for her. That's horseshit and insults the memories of my dead friend. [/QUOTE] Actually the thought did pass many, many times, but she was running it in a mental loop so it came back sooner-or-later. You can't honestly believe she was thinking about being raped every second of her life. She probably should have got professional help from a (good) psychologist.
[QUOTE=J!NX;32473984]I don't think anyone that says "Its their choice" has actually had any suicide in their lives. literally anyone I meet that has doesn't say that, ever, and when they do, they never experienced it, ever.[/QUOTE] I'm sorry but that's just wrong. Suicide isn't one of those things you have to "experience" to understand why people do it. It's not some sort of secret. It is always their choice to do it - unless they have some sort of mental illness which warps reality for them. Yes, many people suffering depression have committed suicide. Those people chose to kill themselves, too. Don't misunderstand me. You [i]seem[/i] to have experienced it in your life so I'm sorry that you had to, but I still stand by what I've said.
Suicide is the result of an illness. If you want to commit suicide, there is somthing wrong with you. Would you say that its immoral to restrain someone who is trying to kill themselves just because they sniffed some real bad glue? The depression which makes you kill yourself is no different from suicide glue, both are abnormal and should be dealt with.
[QUOTE=SCopE5000;32475210]Actually the thought did pass many, many times, but she was running it in a mental loop so it came back sooner-or-later. You can't honestly believe she was thinking about being raped every second of her life. She probably should have got professional help from a (good) psychologist.[/QUOTE] That costs quite a bit of money in some cases. And yes, it was every day. Not every rape victim reacts the same way to it.
[QUOTE=Caesar;32475517]I'm sorry but that's just wrong. Suicide isn't one of those things you have to "experience" to understand why people do it. It's not some sort of secret. It is always their choice to do it - unless they have some sort of mental illness which warps reality for them. Yes, many people suffering depression have committed suicide. Those people chose to kill themselves, too. Don't misunderstand me. You [i]seem[/i] to have experienced it in your life so I'm sorry that you had to, but I still stand by what I've said.[/QUOTE] fair enough the people I've dealt with had depression warp their reality, making them believe they're alone and completely hopeless, even when helped I pretty much had to tell a group of people what was going on to stop them, that shit is scary [editline]25th September 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;32480510]That costs quite a bit of money in some cases. And yes, it was every day. Not every rape victim reacts the same way to it.[/QUOTE] we need to spend tax money on programs for the suicidal, let them group together and talk about solutions, make it a big thing instead of well... [url=http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2011/09/15/tax-money-to-fund-production-of-jersey-shore/]wasting[/url] it [editline]25th September 2011[/editline] anyone have any better ideas than me though? Legalize it, but [I]require[/I] them to go through tax paid programs.
[QUOTE=Franke_R!?;32458445]Suicide should be legal in my opinion as long as the person who wants to take his/her life asks all the people he/she knows permission[/QUOTE] Seriously? Written consent from the parents for suicide? Think realistically frankie.
Sorry for bumping an old thread, but this is something that has been on my mind lately. Why shouldn't suicide be "legal"? This is like saying "You have a right to live, but you have no right not to." It makes no sense. Why shouldn't you be allowed to take YOUR own life? The country doesn't own you, neither does your friends or your parents, so why should it be illegal? Also, what exactly are the consequences of taking your own life? Do you get a debt that is transferred to your next of kin or something like that? If so, that does a lot more harm than good.
[QUOTE=black_tech;34577678]Sorry for bumping an old thread, but this is something that has been on my mind lately. Why shouldn't suicide be "legal"? This is like saying "You have a right to live, but you have no right not to." It makes no sense. Why shouldn't you be allowed to take YOUR own life? The country doesn't own you, neither does your friends or your parents, so why should it be illegal? Also, what exactly are the consequences of taking your own life? Do you get a debt that is transferred to your next of kin or something like that? If so, that does a lot more harm than good.[/QUOTE] I think the topic was supposed to be on assisted suicide, i.e. euthenasia or something like that but I think it kind of got derailed. Anyways, I think assisted suicide should be legal. There are people who really just don't want to live any more and it is not the government's place to deny them their wish. I saw a video one time of a guy who was paralyzed from the neck down and had a stroke or something. So he couldn't read/talk well/move at all. Basically the video was about how he had wanted to kill himself since a year after it happened and his wife wanted to help him to end his agony, but the law would not allow them. Something kind of like this video: [video=youtube;bxQYTFIZi8A]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxQYTFIZi8A[/video] I don't understand how people here are debating the legality of suicide itself. I strongly doubt anyone who is going to end their own life cares that what they're doing is going to break a law that they won't be around to accept punishment for. I may be misunderstanding what they're debating, though.
suicide for bullying is a stupid reason nonetheless literally kids are suicide-happy after getting called a pussy ONCE
I think suicide is for people that are weak. and i dont want to sound like a dick here but its all the trouble and challenges you face in your life and if you overcome it you get a feeling of pride for yourself. Even if you have the worst fucking life ever ( everyone hates you and hopes you die, they make you feel like a peice of shit every single day, no one loves you and your apparently not use for society) taking your own life is like saying they have one and they are right, I am worthless. Bullshit people need to learn how to come back harder and tougher. Allthough the law shouldnt control what you do as long as you dont harm anyone else, but suicide is never worth it. Oh one more thing If someone has a terminal illness and there's no sign for a cure, i think they can take their life. Because in that case there isnt any sign of hope and its an extremly painful road to death then you can take your life just to end the pain.
[QUOTE=Death_God;34613886]suicide for bullying is a stupid reason nonetheless literally kids are suicide-happy after getting called a pussy ONCE[/QUOTE] This is bullshit, you're not looking into it enough. Nobody commits suicide or gets depressed for being called a pussy once. [editline]9th February 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=gamertag;34614189]I think suicide is for people that are weak. and i dont want to sound like a dick here but its all the trouble and challenges you face in your life and if you overcome it you get a feeling of pride for yourself. Even if you have the worst fucking life ever ( everyone hates you and hopes you die, they make you feel like a peice of shit every single day, no one loves you and your apparently not use for society) taking your own life is like saying they have one and they are right, I am worthless. Bullshit people need to learn how to come back harder and tougher. Allthough the law shouldnt control what you do as long as you dont harm anyone else, but suicide is never worth it.[/QUOTE] How are these people supposed to learn how to become harder and tougher? It doesn't matter is a person is weak or not, it still takes [B]alot[/B] of shit to get someone to commit suicide, shit that nobody deserves.
It's a bit selfish to commit suicide, when you think about the people who cared about the person. Yet, it's selfish to force a person in therapy and book him/her full of meds / therapy / institution if they feel like they don't want to go on. Sometimes people do suicide for not so bright reasons, but sometimes life is not dancing on rose pedals. [editline]9th February 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=gamertag;34614189]I think suicide is for people that are weak. and i dont want to sound like a dick here but its all the trouble and challenges you face in your life and if you overcome it you get a feeling of pride for yourself. Even if you have the worst fucking life ever ( everyone hates you and hopes you die, they make you feel like a peice of shit every single day, no one loves you and your apparently not use for society) taking your own life is like saying they have one and they are right, I am worthless. Bullshit people need to learn how to come back harder and tougher. Allthough the law shouldnt control what you do as long as you dont harm anyone else, but suicide is never worth it. Oh one more thing If someone has a terminal illness and there's no sign for a cure, i think they can take their life. Because in that case there isnt any sign of hope and its an extremly painful road to death then you can take your life just to end the pain.[/QUOTE] Also, you've obviously never encountered much hardship in your life. You don't know how it's like to walk in the shoes of somebody who's emotionally crumbled. It's easy to tell them to suck it up, what the hell would you know? People deal with things in different ways, not everybody is such a "strong" and "tough" person
[QUOTE=Death_God;34613886]suicide for bullying is a stupid reason nonetheless literally kids are suicide-happy after getting called a pussy ONCE[/QUOTE] Bullshit. [QUOTE=gamertag;34614189]I think suicide is for people that are weak. and i dont want to sound like a dick here but its all the trouble and challenges you face in your life and if you overcome it you get a feeling of pride for yourself. Even if you have the worst fucking life ever ( everyone hates you and hopes you die, they make you feel like a peice of shit every single day, no one loves you and your apparently not use for society) taking your own life is like saying they have one and they are right, I am worthless. Bullshit people need to learn how to come back harder and tougher. Allthough the law shouldnt control what you do as long as you dont harm anyone else, but suicide is never worth it. Oh one more thing If someone has a terminal illness and there's no sign for a cure, i think they can take their life. Because in that case there isnt any sign of hope and its an extremly painful road to death then you can take your life just to end the pain.[/QUOTE] I don't think it's for people who are weak. If the situation you outline actually happened, which I don't think it ever has/will, then yes, that person has no reason to not commit suicide. Maybe the person is worthless. It's not implying that they're right, however. Even if it was implying that they're right...why would that matter? It's simply not wishing to exist any more. Nothing more, nothing less. I don't think you've ever had any serious mental trauma, and if you have I applaud you for being able to make it through, but some people just can not be happy any more. They will just exist in a perpetual state of depression, which is not enjoyable and the most sensible way out is, sometimes, suicide.
Making it illegal is just stupid. We are humans, not computers following a strict program. Try to help suicidal people instead.
[QUOTE=userman122;34654242] Try to help suicidal people instead.[/QUOTE] I'm pretty sure we are?
I don't really see how suicide is weak. You'd have to be pretty damn brave to kill yourself.
Suicide is painless.
People are getting a bit off topic here. Describing the property of an act does not at all answer whether the act is legitimate or not. An opinion about an act does not have an effect on whether it is moral. Your own personal preference to perform an act also does not affect the act. Whether suicide is a weak or strong act isn't of importance as such a perception does not affect the moral acceptability as it is an issue without a lot of grey.
[QUOTE=userman122;34654242]Making it illegal is just stupid. We are humans, not computers following a strict program. Try to help suicidal people instead.[/QUOTE] Keeping people from commiting suicide is a way of helping suicidal people, enforcing the illegality is a way of keeping people from committing suicide. And no, I'm not implying you should put people into jail for trying to commit suicide etc, it's more about giving the government a legal way of forcing suicidal people to get help, which in my opinion, is only good.
[QUOTE=Yzooo;32451909]If you fail at suicide you clearly don't want to die or you're just not physically capable of suicide(crippled etc.), because honestly, it's not that hard(Other than mentally, in which it might be challenging). Also this thread is sort of about this subject, [url]http://www.facepunch.com/threads/1126422[/url] .[/QUOTE] Committing suicide is surprisingly easy to screw up.
There is always a way to help a suicidal person out of their situation. If they commit suicide then something in life has clearly gone wrong for them at some stage that could have been fixed with proper attention.
[QUOTE=Kalibos;32451915]On one hand I can see how it could be considered selfish to take your own life and leave everyone behind with feelings of mourning, regret, guilt, emptiness, etc. etc. and whatever, and I used to agree that it's a horrible thing to do to people [url=http://www.facepunch.com/threads/1046656-The-Agonizing-Last-Words-of-Programmer-Bill-Zeller/]but then I read this thread[/url] I don't feel the same way anymore[/QUOTE] This, if you want to kill yourself, fine, but just be sure you've thought about the people that mean a lot to you first, how it will affect them.
[QUOTE=Franke_R!?;32458445]Suicide should be legal in my opinion as long as the person who wants to take his/her life asks all the people he/she knows permission[/QUOTE] Why would someone ask their friends and family permission to kill themselves?
As someone who has witnessed an attempted suicide and stopped it from happening, I still think it's the persons decision. It's a humanly instinct to stop it if you weren't expecting it.
[QUOTE=Blazyd;34675330]Why would someone ask their friends and family permission to kill themselves?[/QUOTE] This, the suicidal person really doesn't care. Call them selfish, but there is alot of stuff on their mind already so it's very hard to care for others at that point.
[QUOTE=Kalibos;32451915]On one hand I can see how it could be considered selfish to take your own life and leave everyone behind with feelings of mourning, regret, guilt, emptiness, etc. etc. and whatever, and I used to agree that it's a horrible thing to do to people [url=http://www.facepunch.com/threads/1046656-The-Agonizing-Last-Words-of-Programmer-Bill-Zeller/]but then I read this thread[/url] I don't feel the same way anymore[/QUOTE] This case is not on the usual level of suicide. This one was about someone coping with life long mental scars. There are again so many cases where someone suffers from clinical depression and attempts suicide due to lacking rational aspects due to their depression, cases where we can't just say: Welp, I guess it's their desicion. And then we let teenager Tommy hang himself because he got rejected by his crush whom was way out of his league.
Suicide is illegal with a good reason. Its a mental condition, the person is unstable, unsuitable to make their own decisions. If you attempt it, but fail you need to be detained. You need to be kept safe for your own well being.
[QUOTE=7H3_H4CK3R;34689530]Suicide is illegal with a good reason. Its a mental condition, the person is unstable, unsuitable to make their own decisions. If you attempt it, but fail you need to be detained. You need to be kept safe for your own well being.[/QUOTE] What about people who don't want to live anymore because their entire body has been crippled due to disease, and they want to move on from this world to wherever death takes you? Are they considered mentally crippled and aught be detained as well?
A common saying follows that suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. But I think it more often is a solution to a permanent problem. It's sad what life can throw at you, and it's sad that people have to struggle with it when there's no end in sight.
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