• Examining men's rights activism on the internet - you could be oppressed by females right now and no
    984 replies, posted
[QUOTE=yawmwen;34008955]I certainly don't. I hold about as much power in society as any female, in fact less than most females I've met.[/QUOTE] Well that's because you're not a statistical breakdown of males and the women you met aren't a statistical breakdown of females. There's a black man as president of the United States, does this mean black people aren't disadvantaged? I hate making this a racial debate but the parallels are perfect.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;34008955]I certainly don't. I hold about as much power in society as any female, in fact less than most females I've met.[/QUOTE] [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Members_of_the_111th_United_States_Congress]One of the most diverse US government seatings in history[/url] still saw men outseat women by 360 members in the House (out of a total 435) and 83 in the Senate (out of a total 100). Your extremely limited personal view of the male/female power dichotomy is not accurate at all so don't present it as evidence please.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;34008992]Well that's because you're not a statistical breakdown of males and the women you met aren't a statistical breakdown of females.[/QUOTE] So then what am I supposed to do? How am I in any way part of the problem when I reap literally no benefit from being a man?
[QUOTE=Hiurst;34009002][url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Members_of_the_111th_United_States_Congress]The most diverse house of US Congress in history[/url] still saw men outseat women by 360 members in the House (out of a total 435) and 83 in the Senate (out of a total 100). Your extremely limited personal view of the male/female power dichotomy is not accurate at all so don't present it as evidence please.[/QUOTE] The point is going way over your head.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;34009003]So then what am I supposed to do? How am I in any way part of the problem when I reap literally no benefit from being a man?[/QUOTE] How do you know you reap no benefits from being a man? Have you ever been a woman for a statistically significant length of time to draw comparisons?
[QUOTE=Bleach Qeef;34008679]The shit about the hormones is true though. In a lot of cases, men in their 80's 100 years ago, have the same test levels as 20 year olds do today. That shits fucked up.[/QUOTE] What?
[QUOTE=Zeke129;34009044]How do you know you reap no benefits from being a man? Have you ever been a woman for a statistically significant length of time to draw comparisons?[/QUOTE] I think each side has its own benefits though what is there to benefit from being a man exactly this conspiracy that men control women through gender role indoctrination is kind of confusing me.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;34009044]How do you know you reap no benefits from being a man? Have you ever been a woman for a statistically significant length of time to draw comparisons?[/QUOTE] No, but I have seen opportunities given to women that men are not applicable for. Women get more money from welfare, they have better access to rehabilitation clinics, they are given better mental health counseling, they are given lighter sentences on crimes. They are also on average payed more in every job I have worked. It's actually a whole lot easier to be a poor female than a poor male since most social programs are aimed at females first. The only tangible benefit I can see myself getting(that women don't also get) is that I can't get pregnant from sex. Now I go back to my earlier question. How am I part of the problem when I don't reap benefits as a man? How am I part of the problem when I am just as(if not more) disadvantaged than most women I've ever met?
[QUOTE=Vasili;34009086]I think each side has its own benefits though what is there to benefit from being a man exactly this conspiracy that men control women through gender role indoctrination is kind of confusing me.[/QUOTE] Can you name one house of government anywhere where women hold an equal amount of seats as men? Or have held?
[QUOTE=Vasili;34008816]There was a study by Simon Baron-Cohen, a Cambridge Univ. professor of psychology and psychiatry, claims that the female brain is predominantly hard-wired for empathy, while the male brain is mainly; for the most part hard-wired for understanding and building systems. There was also a study that discovered its possible that males and females don't have a 'fixed' brain and take traits from each sex, hence the term 'tomboy' females or 'flamboyant' for men.[/QUOTE] You have to be a bit careful with psychology, because it's entirely possible for people to assume that current modes of thinking have always been in place, when that's not really true. Most of them don't hold up to a cross-historical and cross-cultural analysis. And evolutionary psychology is about as scientific as astrology.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;34009103]No, but I have seen opportunities given to women that men are not applicable for. Women get more money from welfare, they have better access to rehabilitation clinics, they are given better mental health counseling, they are given lighter sentences on crimes. They are also on average payed more in every job I have worked. It's actually a whole lot easier to be a poor female than a poor male since most social programs are aimed at females first. The only tangible benefit I can see myself getting(that women don't also get) is that I can't get pregnant from sex. Now I go back to my earlier question. How am I part of the problem when I don't reap benefits as a man? How am I part of the problem when I am just as(if not more) disadvantaged than most women I've ever met?[/QUOTE] Again, your (relatively) limited view of life is not accurate at all in measuring the man/woman opportunity balance
[QUOTE=yawmwen;34009103]No, but I have seen opportunities given to women that men are not applicable for. Women get more money from welfare, they have better access to rehabilitation clinics, they are given better mental health counseling, they are given lighter sentences on crimes. They are also on average payed more in every job I have worked. It's actually a whole lot easier to be a poor female than a poor male since most social programs are aimed at females first. [/quote] How come statistics, for the money-related ones at least, clearly show that your anecdotes aren't representative of what's actually happening? Fill me in on the mental health counselling one, though. I've never heard it before. [QUOTE=yawmwen;34009103]Now I go back to my earlier question. How am I part of the problem when I don't reap benefits as a man? How am I part of the problem when I am just as(if not more) disadvantaged than most women I've ever met?[/QUOTE] Because your own experience isn't the be-all and end-all
[QUOTE=Hiurst;34009124]Again, your (relatively) limited view of life is not accurate at all in measuring the man/woman opportunity balance[/QUOTE] Answer my damn question, then.
[QUOTE=Hiurst;34009110]Can you name one house of government anywhere where women hold an equal amount of seats as men? Or have held?[/QUOTE] but that doesn't mean that women are being controlled by men or they are being deliberately pushed away from politics or positions of power out of sexism or gender role philosophy. One of Britain's most famous and successful leaders was a woman. Germany currently has a woman PM as well as a few other nations, historically Britain has had itself quite a few famous women leaders. [QUOTE=Contag;34009120]You have to be a bit careful with psychology, because it's entirely possible for people to assume that current modes of thinking have always been in place, when that's not really true. Most of them don't hold up to a cross-historical and cross-cultural analysis. And evolutionary psychology is about as scientific as astrology.[/QUOTE] I think this was the study in question: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empathizing%E2%80%93systemizing_theory[/url]
I very heavily approve of this thread.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;34009131]Answer my damn question, then.[/QUOTE] Uh I guess [i]you personally[/i] aren't 'part of the problem' assuming you're not just bullshitting for the sake of the argument? who cares women are still disadvantaged
[QUOTE=Vasili;34009142]but that doesn't mean that women are being controlled by men or they are being deliberately pushed away from politics or positions of power out of sexism or gender role philosophy. One of Britain's most famous and successful leaders was a woman. Germany currently has a woman PM as well as a few other nations, historically Britain has had itself quite a few famous women leaders. [/QUOTE] Obama black America I'm bringing this out again
[QUOTE=Zeke129;34009130]How come statistics, for the money-related ones at least, clearly show that your anecdotes aren't representative of what's actually happening?[/quote] The pay as far as jobs goes isn't indicative of anything, but more to illustrate my point that if there is some giant male conspiracy trying to systematically persecute women, I sure as hell wasn't filled in. However it is pretty well known that women get more money in the form of welfare than men. [quote]Fill me in on the mental health counselling one, though. I've never heard it before. [/QUOTE] That generally goes through welfare. Women have an easier time getting free sessions with "BHR"(behavioral health resources) via DSHS(welfare office) than men.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;34009150]Obama black America I'm bringing this out again[/QUOTE] I don't understand what you mean by that
[QUOTE=yawmwen;34009152]The pay as far as jobs goes isn't indicative of anything, but more to illustrate my point that if there is some giant male conspiracy trying to systematically persecute women, I sure as hell wasn't filled in. However it is pretty well known that women get more money in the form of welfare than men. That generally goes through welfare. Women have an easier time getting free sessions with "BHR"(behavioral health resources) via DSHS(welfare office) than men.[/QUOTE] Well that doesn't cost money at all here so it's no wonder I hadn't heard of it. But I can assure you the poverty statistics in my country clearly show that women aren't receiving greater assistance.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;34009152]but more to illustrate my point that if there is some giant male conspiracy trying to systematically persecute women, I sure as hell wasn't filled in.[/QUOTE] *No one* said this
[QUOTE=Vasili;34009170]I don't understand what you mean by that[/QUOTE] America having a black head of state does not mean that blacks are not disadvantaged in America the same applies to woman heads of state
[QUOTE=Hiurst;34009148]Uh I guess [i]you personally[/i] aren't 'part of the problem' assuming you're not just bullshitting for the sake of the argument? who cares women are still disadvantaged[/QUOTE] I'm not saying that they aren't. I'm not saying that society as is, is perfect. I'm saying that and a man it is wrong for me to impose standards on women as say that they need to follow a certain standard of liberation. Society is improving because women are fighting for their power more, and that's good. That's what needs to happen. I don't need to help them, as that would in a sense cheapen their victory, and I don't need to impede them. A woman is equal in my eyes and can fight for whatever standard in society she wants. Women as a group are able to do that, but it is up to them to do it. [editline]2nd January 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Zeke129;34009171]Well that doesn't cost money at all here so it's no wonder I hadn't heard of it. But I can assure you the poverty statistics in my country clearly show that women aren't receiving greater assistance.[/QUOTE] You're in Canada, I'm in the United States. Things work a bit differently here so I'm not surprised that there was a mistranslation.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;34009180]I'm not saying that they aren't. I'm not saying that society as is, is perfect. I'm saying that as a man it is wrong for me to impose standards on women as say that they need to follow a certain standard of liberation. Society is improving because women are fighting for their power more, and that's good. That's what needs to happen. I don't need to help them, as that would in a sense cheapen their victory, and I don't need to impede them. A woman is equal in my eyes and can fight for whatever standard in society she wants. Women as a group are able to do that, but it is up to them to do it.[/QUOTE] This is exactly like gays, who also get paid less and are underrepresented in government. Is it their responsibility to change or the society that's causing the discrepancy?
[QUOTE=Zeke129;34009178]America having a black head of state does not mean that blacks are not disadvantaged in America the same applies to woman heads of state[/QUOTE] oh right but it does show they can get into positions of power
[QUOTE=Vasili;34009192]oh right but it does show they can get into positions of power[/QUOTE] nobody said they can't but compare how many male heads of state there are to how many female heads of state there are
[QUOTE=Hiurst;34009176]*No one* said this[/QUOTE] There is a subtle implication with many feminists. I think it is in a way easier to hate and demonize the sex that has been complicit and at times enforced a gender role, rather than simply break free of your own conditioning and societal constructs and demand equal rights yourself. However, I take a lot of offense when people say that men are trying to hold together some patriarchy and suppress women, because that throws me right in there with them. There are men that try and do it, but it's a huge generalization on par with "all muslims wish to subjugate women".
[QUOTE=yawmwen;34009222]There is a subtle implication with many feminists. I think it is in a way easier to hate and demonize the sex that has been complicit and at times enforced a gender role, rather than simply break free of your own conditioning and societal constructs and demand equal rights yourself. However, I take a lot of offense when people say that men are trying to hold together some patriarchy and suppress women, because that throws me right in there with them. There are men that try and do it, but it's a huge generalization on par with "all muslims wish to subjugate women".[/QUOTE] but this thread was about MRAs, not all men that being said if you're a decent person you should be advocating to get rid of inequalities
[QUOTE=Zeke129;34009189]This is exactly like gays, who also get paid less and are underrepresented in government. Is it their responsibility to change or the society that's causing the discrepancy?[/QUOTE] It's their responsibility to move forward(which they fucking are already!). I already said that I won't vote for someone who wants to impede on women's rights or force certain values on them. It's the exact same thing with gays. They are ultimately responsible to go up to the table and demand their share, but I'm not going to vote for anyone that wants to impede them in any systematic way.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;34009234]It's their responsibility to move forward(which they fucking are already!). I already said that I won't vote for someone who wants to impede on women's rights or force certain values on them. It's the exact same thing with gays. They are ultimately responsible to go up to the table and demand their share, but I'm not going to vote for anyone that wants to impede them in any systematic way.[/QUOTE] But by supporting a laissez-faire, "*blind" approach you ARE impeding them
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