• Free will?
    290 replies, posted
of course we have free will which isn't determined by our ancestors. what the fuck have you been smoking? let's say you have a napkin in your hands. you can either decide to drop it or keep it in your hands. this choice will be completely undetermined by the dna, but the moral set of rules you were brought up believing, your surroundings, even what you've eaten.
[QUOTE=Satane]but the moral set of rules you were brought up believing, your surroundings, even what you've eaten.[/QUOTE] What you do is controlled by everything you interact with. Everything will leave an imprint on you, humans start as a blank slate and we and filled in through out the course of our lives. We make choices based on what has left an imprint on our mind. So in a way free will both does and Doesn't exist
[QUOTE=Satane;33153588]of course we have free will which isn't determined by our ancestors. what the fuck have you been smoking? let's say you have a napkin in your hands. you can either decide to drop it or keep it in your hands. this choice will be completely undetermined by the dna, but the moral set of rules you were brought up believing, your surroundings, even what you've eaten.[/QUOTE] That still means there isn't free will. Free will means your genes and environment dont control what you do.
What does free will even mean? Making decisions without any external input influencing them? How fucking retarded is that?
[QUOTE=Satane;33153588]of course we have free will which isn't determined by our ancestors. what the fuck have you been smoking? let's say you have a napkin in your hands. you can either decide to drop it or keep it in your hands. this choice will be completely undetermined by the dna, but the moral set of rules you were brought up believing, your surroundings, even what you've eaten.[/QUOTE] The argument went way over your head.
[QUOTE=sltungle;33052541]And? All physical theories we currently have only really work in certain circumstances. For example I don't think you can apply a non-modified, raw form of general relatively to quantum systems (I may be wrong there though) and get the correct results, but that's not to say that general relativity isn't correct. The universe simply has different sets of rules for different circumstances, just because determinism doesn't ALWAYS apply ALL of the time it doesn't mean it's 'wrong'. The second law of thermodynamics, energy conservation, all of these HUGE foundations of physics are frequently violated throughout the universe at a tiny scale, yet it doesn't mean they're 'wrong'. Energy can be 'borrowed' and given back to the vacuum, which doesn't end up violating energy conservation in the long wrong, but an isolated snippet of time would say that energy conservation WAS violated. The second law of thermodynamics is a statistical law, which means that the 'average' result proves the law to be true, but if you isolate small parts of a thermally interacting system you'll see that occasionally the second law is violated briefly on the small scale.[/QUOTE] Pretty much everything in physics we know is wrong, but we just haven't found a better idea.
I believe we all follow a certain path, No act is random. Never has been. It's all been written down as a path you are meant to follow. So in answer to your question, no. I don't believe we have free will. We just follow a pre defined set of major events that happened in our life.
[QUOTE=Eudoxia;33154409]What does free will even mean? Making decisions without any external input influencing them? How fucking retarded is that?[/QUOTE] It's amusing how silly it is when you think about it :v:. Free will is the result of the modern dogmas. [QUOTE=Tomthetechy;33402652]I believe we all follow a certain path, No act is random. Never has been. It's all been written down as a path you are meant to follow. So in answer to your question, no. I don't believe we have free will. We just follow a pre defined set of major events that happened in our life.[/QUOTE] Where's your evidence for the existence of fate?
[QUOTE=Rubs10;33403194]It's amusing how silly it is when you think about it :v:. Free will is the result of the modern dogmas. Where's your evidence for the existence of fate?[/QUOTE] If we don't have free will, we have a fate. Technically we don't have free will [editline]23rd November 2011[/editline] let me put it this way. let's say one day, we create a supercomputer which could simulate earth and its history with 100% accuracy. so if decide to watch hitler from his birth to his death he'd do everything the same no matter how many times we run the simulation. and than we change something. we show hitler his future. his actions would change, changing his fate. we can't change our fate unless something impossible happens.
[QUOTE=(OP) sp00ks;33042195]Do you believe that we posses free will? Is it even possible? I don't think we do. Biochemistry determines how our brains work, and biochemistry is "ruled" by physics. There is no scientific reason to believe that our brains are capable of actually making something from nothing. The closest we come is quantum physics, and that's completely random.[/QUOTE] Well, our brains has gave us the intellectual ability to create tools, make sharp ends, split an atom, create capital cities and basically everything. So I don't understand how you can even say there is no free will? Of course there is. But creating something from nothing..? What's that supposed to mean?
[QUOTE=Tomthetechy;33402652]I believe we all follow a certain path, No act is random. Never has been. It's all been written down as a path you are meant to follow. So in answer to your question, no. I don't believe we have free will. We just follow a pre defined set of major events that happened in our life.[/QUOTE] Well, according to the most popular interpretations of quantum mechanics acts are random, regardless of the fact that they may not be chosen. [editline]23rd November 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Bat-shit;33407836]Well, our brains has gave us the intellectual ability to create tools, make sharp ends, split an atom, create capital cities and basically everything. So I don't understand how you can even say there is no free will? Of course there is.[/QUOTE] How is any of that evidence of free will?
[QUOTE=Bat-shit;33407836]Well, our brains has gave us the intellectual ability to create tools, make sharp ends, split an atom, create capital cities and basically everything. So I don't understand how you can even say there is no free will? Of course there is. But creating something from nothing..? What's that supposed to mean?[/QUOTE] if the exact same physical processes determine our ability to make decisions as rocks moving blindly in space, that argument is invalid. Personally I think you can argue that we have free will, but it's an argument I can't be bothered to write down so for all intensive purposes right now I agree with the OP.
You can't use that as an argument about free will. You also need to think about the fact humans know almost nothing in the sense of the universe.
[QUOTE=Satane;33403454]If we don't have free will, we have a fate. Technically we don't have free will [editline]23rd November 2011[/editline] let me put it this way. let's say one day, we create a supercomputer which could simulate earth and its history with 100% accuracy. so if decide to watch hitler from his birth to his death he'd do everything the same no matter how many times we run the simulation. and than we change something. we show hitler his future. his actions would change, changing his fate. we can't change our fate unless something impossible happens.[/QUOTE] That's a false dichotomy. Just because there's no free will doesn't mean there's fate. Use dominoes as an example. Fate says that no matter what, the last domino will fall, even if the ones before it don't, because that's its destiny. Causal Determinism says that the last domino will fall because the one before it knocked it over, cause and effect. Your example didn't describe fate. Fate says that Hitler would always do what he did, because even if you changed something the universe would correct what you changed. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destiny[/url] [quote]Destiny is seen as the final outcome, independently of the events that precede, which are inevitable and unchangeable per themselves, but as a sequence, could be arranged and rearranged in order to arrive to the final outcome.[/quote] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism[/url] [quote]Determinism is often taken to mean simply Causal determinism: an idea known in physics as cause-and-effect.[/quote] Read the difference.
[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;33408033]How is any of that evidence of free will?[/QUOTE] How is it not? :I Free will, as in, people do shit they want to? [QUOTE=Robbobin;33408107]if the exact same physical processes determine our ability to make decisions as rocks moving blindly in space, that argument is invalid.[/QUOTE] Uhh.. rocks don't make decisions like humans do, rocks don't get bored floating endlessly in space or wherever. Why would you compare a rock to a human?
I'm just going to leave this hear. [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnxkfLe4G74[/media] Free will is just a matter of perception. But when you loose all control of your body and your mind is when you lose your free will.
Free will is a bunch of chemical reactions, what's fate again?
[QUOTE=Bat-shit;33415255]How is it not? :I Free will, as in, people do shit they want to? Uhh.. rocks don't make decisions like humans do, rocks don't get bored floating endlessly in space or wherever. Why would you compare a rock to a human?[/QUOTE] You're missing the point entirely The same physical processes determine both entities. So you have to provide an argument that appeals to something else. The common sense interpretation of free will states that humans can change the course of time through their decision making, however fundamentally it is possible that our decision making abilities are ultimately just as predictable as a rock moving through space.
[QUOTE=Rubs10;33410918]That's a false dichotomy. Just because there's no free will doesn't mean there's fate. Use dominoes as an example. Fate says that no matter what, the last domino will fall, even if the ones before it don't, because that's its destiny. Causal Determinism says that the last domino will fall because the one before it knocked it over, cause and effect. Your example didn't describe fate. Fate says that Hitler would always do what he did, because even if you changed something the universe would correct what you changed. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destiny[/url] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism[/url] Read the difference.[/QUOTE] physics causes your destiny. you can't modify physics. if the dominoes before the last one fell, the last one is likely to fall as well. if the last one doesn't fall, that was never it's destiny. I'm saying that there is "fate" as long as a third party doesn't modify anything. Even a slight offset might lead to a chain of events, changing the final outcome. Now since we don't have free will, people's brains will always work the exact same way, so it will always lead to the same conclusion. again, unless a third party, which is impossible as of now, changes something
[QUOTE=Robbobin;33415748]You're missing the point entirely The same physical processes determine both entities. So you have to provide an argument that appeals to something else. The common sense interpretation of free will states that humans can change the course of time through their decision making, however fundamentally it is possible that our decision making abilities are ultimately just as predictable as a rock moving through space.[/QUOTE] Maybe you are missing the point? Seeing how you think human decision making could be just as predictable as a rock moving through space..
[QUOTE=Eudoxia;33055267]QM isn't entirely random, the probability of an event happening is a well-defined probability distribution. I think.[/QUOTE] This is pretty much what I wanted to say after reading this thread. Lightning strikes were probably thought to be random, or perhaps determined by some kind of supernatural entity. Now we know that it's merely the discharge of an electricity build-up in the clouds, which is very measurable and non-random. What I'm saying is that everything appears random until it doesn't.
[QUOTE=Satane;33417261]physics causes your destiny. you can't modify physics. if the dominoes before the last one fell, the last one is likely to fall as well. if the last one doesn't fall, that was never it's destiny. I'm saying that there is "fate" as long as a third party doesn't modify anything. Even a slight offset might lead to a chain of events, changing the final outcome. Now since we don't have free will, people's brains will always work the exact same way, so it will always lead to the same conclusion. again, unless a third party, which is impossible as of now, changes something[/QUOTE] There's an establish definition for fate(destiny) and you can't change it just because you think it means something else. You're talking about causal determinism, so use the correct word and stop calling it fate. [QUOTE=Bat-shit;33417958]Maybe you are missing the point? Seeing how you think human decision making could be just as predictable as a rock moving through space..[/QUOTE] A brain would be more complex, but it's still subject to the laws of nature and if you know all of the inputs and preexisting conditions, the outcome can be predicted, just like a rock. The brain and our consciousness is nothing more than cause and effect. There is no mystical "choice" involved, there are merely chemical and electrical interactions.
[QUOTE=sp00ks;33042195]There is no scientific reason to believe that our brains are capable of actually making something from nothing. The closest we come is quantum physics, and that's completely random.[/QUOTE] So, having a free will allows you to create shit from space? What the fuck.
[QUOTE=Rubs10;33418682]There's an establish definition for fate(destiny) and you can't change it just because you think it means something else. You're talking about causal determinism, so use the correct word and stop calling it fate. A brain would be more complex, but it's still subject to the laws of nature and if you know all of the inputs and preexisting conditions, the outcome can be predicted, just like a rock. The brain and our consciousness is nothing more than cause and effect. There is no mystical "choice" involved, there are merely chemical interactions.[/QUOTE] Don't forget electrical interaction.
[QUOTE=Bat-shit;33417958]Maybe you are missing the point? Seeing how you think human decision making could be just as predictable as a rock moving through space..[/QUOTE] Pardon my rudeness but I think you may be a little out of your depth here.
Religion would be the only reason to think people have free will. From a non religious viewpoint arguing for free will would be comparable to arguing for God. (absolutely no reason to believe that it exists)
I'm not sure what the definition for "Free Will" is. If it's being able to choose what we do, we all have it. We can choose to kill someone, you can kill yourself, you can choose to say something at any time. I'm not sure what any other definitions would be.
[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;33419139]Pardon my rudeness but I think you may be a little out of your depth here.[/QUOTE] No.. you're right. [QUOTE=Chezhead;33420017]I'm not sure what the definition for "Free Will" is. If it's being able to choose what we do, we all have it. We can choose to kill someone, you can kill yourself, you can choose to say something at any time. I'm not sure what any other definitions would be.[/QUOTE] Yeah basically my thoughts too, but apparently "Free Will" isn't about that, not that simple at least.
If your definition of free will is having the capacity to make decisions, we have it. The other position is that because the physical process occurring in our brains is ultimately rigid and deterministic (if it is; something impossible to demonstrate analytically) , our freedom of will is constrained because there is still always only one possible outcome for the universe. Personally I'm of the opinion that we can easily understand free will just to mean having the capacity to make decisions; I don't think we necessarily need any sort of transcendental notion for us to be free in as much as we are a single entity. It's a constrained sort of free will, not comparable to a Christian conception, for example, easily reconcilable. [editline]25th November 2011[/editline] People who are arguing against free will are just extending their view of the universe as a deterministic entity that only has one possible outcome to saying that because our input is ultimately predetermined, we have no free will. I disagree with this charge, because in as much as I am a physical body in the universe, my actions have implications on the outcome of the universe. I make decisions, and in some sense of the word I have the capacity to do X or not X. Just because we're built out of predictable atoms it doesn't undermine the fact we [I]do[/I] make decisions.
[QUOTE=Robbobin;33435036]If your definition of free will is having the capacity to make decisions, we have it. The other position is that because the physical process occurring in our brains is ultimately rigid and deterministic (if it is; something impossible to demonstrate analytically) , our freedom of will is constrained because there is still always only one possible outcome for the universe. Personally I'm of the opinion that we can easily understand free will just to mean having the capacity to make decisions; I don't think we necessarily need any sort of transcendental notion for us to be free in as much as we are a single entity. It's a constrained sort of free will, not comparable to a Christian conception, for example, easily reconcilable. [editline]25th November 2011[/editline] People who are arguing against free will are just extending their view of the universe as a deterministic entity that only has one possible outcome to saying that because our input is ultimately predetermined, we have no free will. I disagree with this charge, because in as much as I am a physical body in the universe, my actions have implications on the outcome of the universe. I make decisions, and in some sense of the word I have the capacity to do X or not X. Just because we're built out of predictable atoms it doesn't undermine the fact we [I]do[/I] make decisions.[/QUOTE] I disagree, because the way our decisions are made are determined by physical law. We may feel like we have the capacity to do X or not X, but we don't really. It's like saying a machine has the capacity to do the thing that it's going to do or not the thing that it's going to do. It's an inane point because sure I can imagine a world in which something different may have happened, but the rules of this one exactly determined the outcome from the beginning. Even though we may have had what we feel like is choice, what we were going to choose is not actually free, so the idea that we sift through possible actions and "choose" a certain one is irrelevant. It's just what the brain does in order to perform its function. Our mind's consideration of its possible options is no different than pushing buttons on some piece of machinery. It's just stimulus, and it all adds up to a given response according to some set of rules, but few people would say the machine chose what to do. [editline]25th November 2011[/editline] I understand the claim that free will can be considered just the capacity of the brain for decision making, but I consider that to be a sort of abuse of language, and brings up the problem of at what level of complexity a mind develops what we would call will.
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