• Capatalism and Communism. (Which is best?)
    481 replies, posted
Communism will fail every time until(if?) we make the transition to a post-scarcity society.
[QUOTE=Splendor;35230885]Communism will fail every time until(if?) we make the transition to a post-scarcity society.[/QUOTE] That's a bit of a contradiction since that will never happen under capitalism. Communism and abundance pretty much need each other.
[QUOTE=Splendor;35230885]Communism will fail every time until(if?) we make the transition to a post-scarcity society.[/QUOTE] Any reasons or evidence to back up that claim?
[QUOTE=Splendor;35230885]Communism will fail every time until(if?) we make the transition to a post-scarcity society.[/QUOTE] A free market workers' democracy works around that catch quite well.
it depends on your view in my opinion communism could never have truly worked though capitalism does has its flaws it hasn't really gone under yet so i'm gonna go capitalism
Full blown Communism, lead to anger. Full blown Capitalism, anarchy.
[QUOTE=Chessnut;35239606]Full blown Communism, lead to anger. Full blown Capitalism, anarchy.[/QUOTE] Full blown Anarchy is impossible.
[QUOTE=Conscript;35230978]That's a bit of a contradiction since that will never happen under capitalism. Communism and abundance pretty much need each other.[/QUOTE] I'm sure you'd like to prove that causation.
I always thought that Communism wasn't do-able in practise and should just be forgotten. Well not forgotten, but you know what I mean. Just not even be brought up as an idea to run a country.
[QUOTE=Badballer;35242770]I always thought that Communism wasn't do-able in practise and should just be forgotten. Well not forgotten, but you know what I mean. Just not even be brought up as an idea to run a country.[/QUOTE] Because someone told you so?
[QUOTE=Splendor;35242401]I'm sure you'd like to prove that causation.[/QUOTE] Capitalism relies on scarcity in order to work. It's simple economics that scarcity is a major driving force behind the capitalist market economy. Communism was theorized to work, by utopians and by Marx, in an environment where capitalism created significant spoils and advancements. Post-scarcity.
[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];35244286']Capitalism relies on scarcity in order to work. It's simple economics that scarcity is a major driving force behind the capitalist market economy. Communism was theorized to work, by utopians and by Marx, in an environment where capitalism created significant spoils and advancements. Post-scarcity.[/QUOTE] Capitalism works by demand and offer, scarcity is not really a major factor. But it happens from time to time that the things that are highly demanded are scarce.
Without scarcity nothing would be profitable, including labor (thus perpetual unemployement). It's why improvements in production efficiency are unrecognizable profit-wise once it's widespread, or why there is a lot of planned obsolescense in products. With steps away from scarcity the rate of profit tends to fall, leading to overproduction and thus unemployment in a cycle of destructive deflation. Pretty much anytime this happened there was great friction with the working class and a rise of class consciousness. Some people are forgetting capitalism is a system of rationing with an interest in keeping it that way, there is no other way to accumulate capital.
[QUOTE=Splendor;35242401]I'm sure you'd like to prove that causation.[/QUOTE] Capitalism would have to collapse first, because by its own mechanics it would not allow post scarcity to exist.
Communism has never existed ever. Those who call themselves Communist are not a communist. For example, if you look at North Korea their official name is the "Democratic People's Republic of Korea". Are they Democratic? Hell no. The Soviet Union and all these other countries you are arguing about weren't communist either. You can call yourself whatever you want that doesn't make it so. People who use the title communist just use that to get into power promise the people equality, then rule with an iron fist. The basic morals of communism would work and have worked. If you look in Israel the kibbutz have worked fine, and have had the same basic idea.
I just look at history to see which one is better. Genocide, imprisonment, getting banished from your homeland, getting your home stolen by the state, forced labour in a factory, no income, etc. Or! Free market, minimal taxes, no limit on how rich you can get and other lovely goodness! I think the answer is clear.
[QUOTE=Robbi;35246297]I just look at history to see which one is better. Genocide, imprisonment, getting banished from your homeland, getting your home stolen by the state, forced labour in a factory, no income, etc. Or! Free market, minimal taxes, no limit on how rich you can get and other lovely goodness! I think the answer is clear.[/QUOTE] Shitty posts like these should be avoided like the plague.
[QUOTE=Robbi;35246297]I just look at history to see which one is better. Genocide, imprisonment, getting banished from your homeland, getting your home stolen by the state, forced labour in a factory, no income, etc. Or! Free market, minimal taxes, no limit on how rich you can get and other lovely goodness! I think the answer is clear.[/QUOTE] what about 1 billion people starving, half the world living on less than $2.50 a day, wars for profit and much much more. Marx's theory of Communism is now obsolete, yet so is capitalism. Dont front as if capitalism is the holy grail when it has massive flaws.
[QUOTE=Rill42;35246094]Communism has never existed ever. Those who call themselves Communist are not a communist. For example, if you look at North Korea their official name is the "Democratic People's Republic of Korea". Are they Democratic? Hell no. The Soviet Union and all these other countries you are arguing about weren't communist either. You can call yourself whatever you want that doesn't make it so. People who use the title communist just use that to get into power promise the people equality, then rule with an iron fist. The basic morals of communism would work and have worked. If you look in Israel the kibbutz have worked fine, and have had the same basic idea.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Robbi;35246297]I just look at history to see which one is better. Genocide, imprisonment, getting banished from your homeland, getting your home stolen by the state, forced labour in a factory, no income, etc. Or! Free market, minimal taxes, no limit on how rich you can get and other lovely goodness! I think the answer is clear.[/QUOTE] I've covered this before in these threads: [url]http://facepunch.com/threads/1158035?p=34919754&viewfull=1#post34919754[/url] [url]http://facepunch.com/threads/1156058?p=35043257&viewfull=1#post35043257[/url]
[QUOTE=Conscript;35246348]Shitty posts like these should be avoided like the plague.[/QUOTE] If its so shit, my friend, why don't you point out my false things? Oh wait, they are true. [QUOTE=Talkbox;35246576]what about 1 billion people starving, half the world living on less than $2.50 a day, wars for profit and much much more. Marx's theory of Communism is now obsolete, yet so is capitalism. Dont front as if capitalism is the holy grail when it has massive flaws.[/QUOTE] Haha, yes my post is a [I]bit [/I]biased to Capitalism, I agree. But the fact remains that you don't see genocide in a healthy nation with Capitalism but you do see genocide in Communist countries. That point alone is enough in my opinion. Its strange how Communism hasn't been placed in the same category as National Socialism. But yes, capitalism has flaws, but I would rather become unemployed and lose my house and start at the bottom than speak something that the State didn't like and be put away for life. Also the 2.50$ per day thing is not a thing you can blame directly on Capitalism but much rather on the corruption and poor organization of their current governments. Besides, 2.50$ per day is a lot more than nothing per day except a ticket for a meal.
state censorship isn't related to communism because communism isn't supposed to have a state christ
[QUOTE=thisispain;35252485]state censorship isn't related to communism because communism isn't supposed to have a state christ[/QUOTE] Yet it has always failed to follow that. At least always in any serious case of Communism.
[QUOTE=Robbi;35252568]Yet it has always failed to follow that. At least always in any serious case of Communism.[/QUOTE] not only is that not true, it's also irrelevant when arguing about communism and capitalism. capitalist states are just as capable of censoring or chopping off people's heads.
[QUOTE=thisispain;35252602]not only is that not true, it's also irrelevant when arguing about communism and capitalism. capitalist states are just as capable of censoring or chopping off people's heads.[/QUOTE] Yes, they are just as capable but they usually don't do it en masse. Also, give me an example where censorship and other things related to harassment of non-Communists if its so false? A serious case. Not an area that was free for 2 years.
[QUOTE=Robbi;35252626]Yes, they are just as capable but they usually don't do it en masse.[/QUOTE] sure they do. Haiti is a good example. not to mention all the horrible states the US supported in the cold war.
[QUOTE=Robbi;35252238] But yes, capitalism has flaws, but I would rather become unemployed and lose my house and start at the bottom than speak something that the State didn't like and be put away for life. [/QUOTE] This is not communism, this is dictatorship with a state, read Marx then come back here. [QUOTE=Robbi;35252238] Also the 2.50$ per day thing is not a thing you can blame directly on Capitalism but much rather on the corruption and poor organization of their current governments. Besides, [b]2.50$ per day is a lot more than nothing per day except a ticket for a meal. [/b] [/QUOTE] Firstly, half the worlds working population earns [b]less[/b] than $2.50 a day on average. In a third world country with huge amounts of inflation, this is fuck all. You have to consider that huge capitalist economies allow corrupt dictators to thrive, as long as they co-operate with the interests of their government and big corporations.
[QUOTE=thisispain;35252698]sure they do. Haiti is a good example. not to mention all the horrible states the US supported in the cold war.[/QUOTE] So uh, Scandinavia, Finland, Iceland, Europe are all just irrelevant? Also Europe during 1870-1914 was such a horrible place to live, right?
[QUOTE=Robbi;35252746]So uh, Scandinavia, Finland, Iceland, Europe are all just irrelevant? Also Europe during 1870-1914 was such a horrible place to live, right?[/QUOTE] i don't understand the prompt... you said that communists states kill you or censor your opinions and i said that it happened in plenty of capitalist states with an example. and uh, Europe between 1870-1914 being horrible is completely dependent on who you were during that time.
[QUOTE=thisispain;35252783]i don't understand the prompt... you said that communists states kill you or censor your opinions and i said that it happened in plenty of capitalist states with an example. and uh, Europe between 1870-1914 being horrible[B] is completely dependent on who you were during that time.[/B][/QUOTE] Uhh.. 2 nations are not plenty, my friend. Besides the USA was damn nice and it would be damn nice if a person like Ron Paul came to power, at least that is what I hope. And talking about being completely dependent on who you are.. Same goes with Communism, if you aren't a Communist willing to work a lot for nothing then you got sent away! At least in Europe back then you were still free.
[QUOTE=Robbi;35252832] And talking about being completely dependent on who you are.. Same goes with Communism, if you aren't a Communist willing to work a lot for nothing then you got sent away! At least in Europe back then you were still free.[/QUOTE] You dont get it do you, what you describe isn't true communism, there has never been true communism.
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