• Why is it OK to symphatize the Soviet Union and heil them?
    54 replies, posted
As you all know, over 70 million people died under the Soviet command and their symbol. Millions of civilians were murdered by them. Holodomor massacre, Katyn massacre, raping & murdering of German civilians in 1945, et cetera. Nazism is shunned upon for the holocaust, but why is it okay to whip the hammer and sickle flag out and wave it around? Even in the media, I've seen a lot of Soviet related things that symphatized them and their actions. Hypocrisy or what? [highlight](User was banned for this post ("No debate presented." - Megafan))[/highlight]
Maybe some people just wave it around to express their ideology/ past country. Same thing with Neo Nazis.
[QUOTE=shackleford;36765636]Maybe some people just wave it around to express their ideology. Same thing with Neo Nazis.[/QUOTE] But a Neo Nazi would be arrested for Nazism if he did what he did in an European country, but a Soviet symphatizer wouldn't.
[QUOTE=sonerin;36765553]As you all know, over 70 million people died under the Soviet command and their symbol. Millions of civilians were murdered by them. Holodomor massacre, Katyn massacre, raping & murdering of German civilians in 1945, et cetera. Nazism is shunned upon for the holocaust, but why is it okay to whip the hammer and sickle flag out and wave it around? Even in the media, I've seen a lot of Soviet related things that symphatized them and their actions. Hypocrisy or what?[/QUOTE] Because most western nations never felt the direct impact of communism as opposed to the direct impact of nazism.
[QUOTE=sonerin;36765642]But a Neo Nazi would be arrested for Nazism if he did what he did in an European country, but a Soviet symphatizer wouldn't.[/QUOTE] Yeah only in some European countries. But places like USA, it is allowed, and does not discriminate people's beliefs in their ideologies. However Nazism is connected to anti-semitism, rascism and racial superiority to name a few, while communism is not.
[QUOTE=shackleford;36765673]Yeah only in some European countries. But places like USA, it is allowed, and does not discriminate people's beliefs in their ideologies. However Nazism is connected to anti-semitism, rascism and racial superiority to name a few, while communism is not.[/QUOTE] Communism might not be directed to hatred of a group, but let's say that I get offended when I see anything Soviet-related (I'm an Ukrainian victim of the Holodomor massacre), so why wouldn't they ban Soviet related things? They offend a lot of people after all, since they committed genocides against civilians.
[QUOTE=sonerin;36765701]Communism might not be directed to hatred of a group, but let's say that I get offended when I see anything Soviet-related (I'm an Ukrainian victim of the Holodomor massacre), so why wouldn't they ban Soviet related things? They offend a lot of people after all, since they committed genocides against civilians.[/QUOTE] Anything can be considered hate speech. Like showing a USA flag might be offensive to me because of the Jim Crow Laws and lynching of black people. Does that mean we should ban USA related things? Even if you say the word 'water' it may be offensive to me because I believe in a religion that does not tolerate people saying water. Does that mean we should ban the word water? You really shouldn't ban stuff like that, but ban actions such as genocide like what you mentioned (which is already in place). If you ban stuff like that it would not be a free speech society.
[QUOTE=shackleford;36765829]Anything can be considered hate speech. Like showing a USA flag might be offensive to me because of the Jim Crow Laws and lynching of black people. Does that mean we should ban USA related things? Even if you say the word 'water' it may be offensive to me because I believe in a religion that does not tolerate people saying water. Does that mean we should ban the word water? You really shouldn't ban stuff like that, but ban actions such as genocide like what you mentioned (which is already in place). If you ban stuff like that it would not be a free speech society.[/QUOTE] I know, right? And that's my point. Banning everything people find offensive would be a mess. But if they're only going to ban specific offensive things, then don't even bother. You either ban all (Nazism, Soviet related things, Americanism, etc.) "offensive" things or don't ban all of them. Banning just Nazism and leaving other offensive beliefs is too fucking dumb.
[QUOTE=sonerin;36765932]I know, right? And that's my point. Banning everything people find offensive would be a mess. But if they're only going to ban specific offensive things, then don't even bother. You either ban all (Nazism, Soviet related things, Americanism, etc.) "offensive" things or don't ban all of them. Banning just Nazism and leaving other offensive beliefs is too fucking dumb.[/QUOTE] Yeah agreed.
I want to know where you pulled "70 million people" from because that's complete and utter nonsense.
Because 12 year olds think it's edgy and cool to like them.
[QUOTE=Marbalo;36766074]I want to know where you pulled "70 million people" from because that's complete and utter nonsense.[/QUOTE] Katyn, Holodomor, other massacres. It's also confirmed that Russia is still hiding the real death tolls of massacres and genocides committed by the Soviet Union. Search up and you'll see.
[QUOTE=sonerin;36766262]Katyn, Holodomor, other massacres. It's also confirmed that Russia is still hiding the real death tolls of massacres and genocides committed by the Soviet Union. Search up and you'll see.[/QUOTE] The combined total of all the massacres of the Soviet Union, including Holodomor (which is actually heavily debated by historians as to whether or not it was directly caused by Soviet authorities) reaches a total of around 6 - 8 million dead civilians. 70 million people is not only a ridiculously impossible number, it's also statistically and economically improbable. I have absolutely no idea where you even figured 70 million people were somehow killed in the Soviet Union when the total number of dead civilians after WW2 was 15 million, which means the SU would have lost 85 million people in around 40 years. Yeah, Im sure the country managed to remain a superpower for 60 years and go toe-to-toe with the West with only 10~ million people. Sounds logical.
I guess because Communism [I]isn't[/I] supposed to murder millions of people. While Nazism is. Well if you look at it horrifically simplistic.
People tend to romanticize the past.
[QUOTE=Marbalo;36766566]The combined total of all the massacres of the Soviet Union, including Holodomor (which is actually heavily debated by historians as to whether or not it was directly caused by Soviet authorities) reaches a total of around 6 - 8 million dead civilians. 70 million people is not only a ridiculously impossible number, it's also statistically and economically improbable. I have absolutely no idea where you even figured 70 million people were somehow killed in the Soviet Union when the total number of dead civilians after WW2 was 15 million, which means the SU would have lost 85 million people in around 40 years. Yeah, Im sure the country managed to remain a superpower for 60 years and go toe-to-toe with the West with only 10~ million people. Sounds logical.[/QUOTE] Like I said, Soviet Union is hiding the real death tolls. [QUOTE=NoDachi;36766992]I guess because Communism [I]isn't[/I] supposed to murder millions of people. While Nazism is. Well if you look at it horrifically simplistic.[/QUOTE] It's not.
[QUOTE=sonerin;36767173]Like I said, Soviet Union is hiding the real death tolls.[/QUOTE] It doesn't matter what they're "hiding". (The fact you even think they can somehow successfully hide the death of 70 million people is hilarious in itself. ) The fact is the Soviet Union could not sustain such massive economic growth, let alone a flourishing culture with a massive society to back it up if the government actually killed 70 million fucking people. It cant happen, it didn't happen and you're just buying into McCarthyist bullshit.
OP is thinking about Stalinism. It's Joseph Stalin's fault that communism looks evil. If it weren't for Stalin's meddling of Russian economic affair and his iron fist regime, Communism might have been view as a community socialism instead of a semi-fascist look alike.
[QUOTE=sonerin;36767173] It's not.[/QUOTE] Nazism advocates war, both culture war and traditional war. Communism advocates cooperation and unity regardless of race, sex or social standing.
It's not Russia and China's fault. Blame it on Stalin and Mao Zedong. Also Pol Pot of Cambodia is also included. These guys ruins the true name of Communism. I think Marxism is a better
[QUOTE=ThePinkPanzer;36767012]People tend to romanticize the past.[/QUOTE] Yeah just think about all the people in the South who still believe in the Confederacy. Personally I think it's really impressive that they managed to keep the Church's tentacles away for 70 years.
You do know that after Stalin, the Soviet Union flourished right? It wasn't as bad as it was shown in history textbooks. It was a place rich in culture and etc.
[QUOTE=shian;36768322]You do know that after Stalin, the Soviet Union flourished right? It wasn't as bad as it was shown in history textbooks. It was a place rich in culture and etc.[/QUOTE] commuinist culture is genereally laughde in post commut nations. It eas so called poitically doctrined. IT wasdnot living culture. IT was ordained cylture and hillariously ad.
Often it's used to represent communism in general, and not just the Soviet Union.
People like the Soviets cause they're kitsch nowadays.
For russians, it's because Stalin made russia great. For non-russians, it's not Okay. I'm a communist and any marxist worth his equally distributed salt denounces the soviet union. the people who wear ussr shirts or own soviet things in a non-ironic way are called "tankies" by us in the leftist community.
It's a bit unfair to blame all those deaths on the soviets when it was only Stalin, who future soviet leaders didn't like and expressed so. [editline]14th July 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=POLOPOZOZO;36767328]Yeah just think about all the people in the South who still believe in the Confederacy. Personally I think it's really impressive that they managed to keep the Church's tentacles away for 70 years.[/QUOTE] Well when you send anyone you dislike to the gulags it's not hard to keep people you dislike away.
Because the Soviet Union is something far bigger than just the Stalinist regime? True, that was probably the most popular part of it, but the Soviet Union outlasted Stalin by decades. Stalin is the one to blame for most genocidal acts committed on the Soviet Union's behalf. True, the ruthless regime remained for years to come, but never committed atrocities to the scale of Stalin's rule. The Soviet Union and the hammer and sickle are symbols of the Workers party and communism, which has no direct violent connotations, as opposed to the Nazi Eagle and the swastika, which are symbols of Nazism, and by extension racial supremacy. One of the core tenets of Nazism is the belief that the German people are the master race, and that sequential extermination of other "inferior" races is perfectly acceptable as they are taking space and resources usable by the "perfect" Germans. Nazism is directly tied to racism, while communism simply doesn't have a direct, or as direct, link to violence.
[QUOTE=sonerin;36767173]Like I said, Soviet Union is hiding the real death tolls. [/QUOTE] Wow really? Do you have any evidence to back this idea up?
Oh look, a nationalist liar. [QUOTE=sonerin;36765553]As you all know, over 70 million people died under the Soviet command and their symbol. [/quote] False. This isn't even worthy of a response because of how ridiculous it is. Do you just pull numbers out of your ass without any regard to scale or the size of the soviet population? [quote]Millions of civilians were murdered by them.[/quote] Support this. [quote]Holodomor massacre[/quote] That ukrainian nationalist myth? No serious historian, except for cold war sensationalists like robert conquest, give a fuck about it. [quote]Katyn massacre[/quote] This is debated to hell and back whose at fault because of the suspicious circumstances and timing of it, but to be honest I don't have any sympathy for polish officers who served a fascist government. So, big fucking deal. You could make a better argument for banning the british flag because the empire introduced the first 'concentration camps' in south africa. Obviously this is evidence for communists to prove liberals and fascists are the same :rolleyes: [quote]raping & murdering of German civilians in 1945[/quote] There were rapes, and the offenders were shot by their officers, but murders? No, at least not on any similar scale. I don't know why this would even be a reason to 'disown' the USSR or ban the flag. This isn't to mention the endless amount of nazi crimes committed against soviet civilians during their invasion. [quote]Nazism is shunned upon for the holocaust, but why is it okay to whip the hammer and sickle flag out and wave it around?[/quote] Because it's a symbol of working class struggle and resistance against imperialism, unlike the swastika which was a symbol of [i]irredento[/i] and imperialist war against rival empires, and a healthy amount of national chauvinism. It's a populist symbol, unlike the swastika which was the symbol of unabashed reaction. Liberals never had to 'appease' communists like they did hitler, they never entered a 'detente' with hitler and otherwise never had a give and take relationship with fascists. A fascist would never participate in the UN and 'compromise' with other nations like the USSR did. In fact, you could make the case the USSR was far less expansionist than the fascists were. Also, in places like ukraine and russia, even the far right idolizes it. [quote]Even in the media, I've seen a lot of Soviet related things that symphatized them and their actions.[/quote] That's because most former soviet republics lost a lot after the collapse, and it's pretty much a necessity to admit something was lost to be considered credible. This is true for the far right everywhere except a few hysterical ukrainian & baltic nationalists. Otherwise, liberals in ukraine & russia hate the USSR and are eager to propagate myths so they can inch closer to the west. [quote]Hypocrisy or what?[/QUOTE] Apples and oranges. [quote]I'm an Ukrainian victim of the Holodomor massacre[/quote] LOL. no you're not.
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