• 9/11
    355 replies, posted
[QUOTE=King Tiger;35693771]That's not true and the government isn't some singular organization with the intent of destroying your freedoms and forming a dictatorship, but even so, why stage a massive and useless conspiracy to clear the way? Hiring a crazy person from the U.S. to shoot up the WTC would have been more than sufficient.[/QUOTE] *Never said it was, just said it could be possible.
[QUOTE=fox '09;35693789]I speak of the memos he received, what richard clark said on july 5th 2001, etc. I'm not the conspiratorial type, but I don't think it's entirely impossible. They could of done numerous things to stop it, but they didn't even really try. This isn't important to me though, his actions after 9/11 show that he welcomed it and used it to do rather despicable things. I'd like to hear an opposing view on what happened before 9/11, if that's where you are going.[/QUOTE] they pulled it off for the same reason some people think it was a conspiracy: we didn't believe they were seriously capable of something like 9/11. We were overconfident and that did help let this happen.
[QUOTE=asteroidrules;35694552]they pulled it off for the same reason some people think it was a conspiracy: we didn't believe they were seriously capable of something like 9/11. We were overconfident and that did help let this happen.[/QUOTE] Might've been mentioned before but I personally don't think that if it was the government who plotted the attacks that all the members involved in the plot would've been able to keep it a secret. How could anyone live with 3000+ lives on their concience and continue to behave in a socially acceptable manner? Something would've slipped by now.
[QUOTE=Frodo Baggins;35696245]Might've been mentioned before but I personally don't think that if it was the government who plotted the attacks that all the members involved in the plot would've been able to keep it a secret. How could anyone live with 3000+ lives on their concience and continue to behave in a socially acceptable manner? Something would've slipped by now.[/QUOTE] If the goverment can't keep Watergate secret, then I doubt anything close to 9/11 can be pulled off in secret. I'm not an anti-government nut but the goverment seems to always fail to keep a scandal secret. With the expansion of the internet there are no secrets left. What we're entering is a very strange age where people can get their information from many sources, and with this conspiracy theories are bound to rise. People don't look for sources that are neutral, but rather that match their viewpoint. I'm interested to see how this plays out in the election and going forward.
[QUOTE=Frodo Baggins;35696245]Might've been mentioned before but I personally don't think that if it was the government who plotted the attacks that all the members involved in the plot would've been able to keep it a secret. How could anyone live with 3000+ lives on their concience and continue to behave in a socially acceptable manner? Something would've slipped by now.[/QUOTE] Apart from the fact that "9/11 is a conspiracy" is to me, obviously bollocks. This is something that bugs me a bit. If people believe that 9/11 was orchestrated by the government, they must have very little faith in humanity. Do they seriously believe that all the people who would need to be complicit in such a scheme wouldn't mind about the 3000+ people killed so that some "defence contractors/oil companies" would make some cash? Do people really think President Bush capable of giving such an order?
[QUOTE=asteroidrules;35694552]they pulled it off for the same reason some people think it was a conspiracy: we didn't believe they were seriously capable of something like 9/11. We were overconfident and that did help let this happen.[/QUOTE] Yup, same thing with Pearl Harbor. The radar signals of incoming Japs were ignored because they didn't even think they would ever attack.
[QUOTE=King Tiger;35699346]Yup, same thing with Pearl Harbor. The radar signals of incoming Japs were ignored because they didn't even think they would ever attack.[/QUOTE] And probably because radar tech was iffy and we had just as much chance of it being a flock of birds as it being the Japanese.
[QUOTE=Matriax;35698971]Apart from the fact that "9/11 is a conspiracy" is to me, obviously bollocks. This is something that bugs me a bit. If people believe that 9/11 was orchestrated by the government, they must have very little faith in humanity. Do they seriously believe that all the people who would need to be complicit in such a scheme wouldn't mind about the 3000+ people killed so that some "defence contractors/oil companies" would make some cash? Do people really think President Bush capable of giving such an order?[/QUOTE] This was always part of my reason. I was at work the other night and someone said something so I was like "That's almost as crazy as chem trails and 9/11" And the three guys I was with all are going on and on and on about how it was a conspiracy, about how it shouldn't have fallen like that because they've heard from friends or this guy on the internet and what not. And part of what I didn't understand was. If they REALLY DO BELIEVE the GOVERNMENT was behind an attack that caused such terror on the streets of NY and killed 3,000 American citizens. Why don't they do something? I don't think the Government did it. I know so many people who were there, I've seen so many pictures, videos, read so many articles and I'm convinced it wasn't a conspiracy. But let's say if it was obvious to me it was a conspiracy, and I came to that solid conclusion myself, and everyone I know felt it was a conspiracy too. Than why don't any of us do anything about it? People love to talk but apparently they wouldn't act on 2,000 deaths by the US government. Which is disconcerting.
[QUOTE=King Tiger;35699346]Yup, same thing with Pearl Harbor. The radar signals of incoming Japs were ignored because they didn't even think they would ever attack.[/QUOTE] No. The Japanese fleet that was approaching Pearl Harbor was under radio silence. Yes, there were rumors of something happening on that day, but the government expected at worst for there to be a strike on Guam or one of the islands near Australia.
The Al-Q did it with CIA training, and that's the most important part. It was the chickens coming home to roost. Whether or not we allowed it to happen is up for debate, but we certainly exploited it to the best of our abilities. The only conspiracy is that of capital
[QUOTE=neos300;35704022]No. The Japanese fleet that was approaching Pearl Harbor was under radio silence. Yes, there were rumors of something happening on that day, but the government expected at worst for there to be a strike on Guam or one of the islands near Australia.[/QUOTE] Early warning stations did detect and report the incoming planes, but the commanders were too cocky to consider it was an attack. But either way: this is a 9/11 conspiracy thread, not a Pearl Harbor thread.
[QUOTE=Ownederd;35704090]The Al-Q did it with CIA training, and that's the most important part. It was the chickens coming home to roost. Whether or not we allowed it to happen is up for debate, but we certainly exploited it to the best of our abilities. The only conspiracy is that of capital[/QUOTE] 1. Please explain this "CIA training" you speak of. 2. How was it exploited?
[QUOTE=King Tiger;35705368]1. Please explain this "CIA training" you speak of. 2. How was it exploited?[/QUOTE] The CIA training to the mujahadeen during the Soviet intervention in the Afghani Civil War[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cyclone#Criticism]provided crucial information[/url] to what later would become the Al Qaeda. And it was exploited so they could pull off the War in Iraq, fearmongering with Iran, and shit like the PATRIOT ACT.
9/11 conspiracies are the liberal equivalent to the Republican birther movement. There are crazy people in both parties willing to believe anything that makes the other side look bad.
I think that the government did not plan the attacks, nor did they make them become an act - but I think they took those buildings down by force. I personally think there was something in the building not meant to be seen so they had no choice. I've seen the videos and hear the booms, and during the booms it wasn't people falling. I want to think I am wrong, but you never know since no one will come out with the truth. Also on the WTC 7(or 9? not sure) I didn't look into it much but it looked like it fell from explosives in the way it did but yet again I could be wrong.
My teacher taught us Bush works for someone called Global Elite :| And 9'11 was to take away american rights
So I found this. [video=youtube;aVDig3Fu8WU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVDig3Fu8WU[/video] Interesting stuff.
[QUOTE=sgman91;35705962]9/11 conspiracies are the liberal equivalent to the Republican birther movement. There are crazy people in both parties willing to believe anything that makes the other side look bad.[/QUOTE] There's a significant amount of right wing truthers. For example, Alex Jones.
[QUOTE=Snow white;35706321]My teacher taught us Bush works for someone called Global Elite :| And 9'11 was to take away american rights[/QUOTE] File a complaint, that's indoctrination. [editline]24th April 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=sgman91;35705962]9/11 conspiracies are the liberal equivalent to the Republican birther movement. There are crazy people in both parties willing to believe anything that makes the other side look bad.[/QUOTE] I'd say 9/11 truth is even more conservative than birthers (yes I know Bush was a republican, these people think he was actually [i]too liberal[/i]).
[QUOTE=Governor Goblin;35706447]There's a significant amount of right wing truthers. For example, Alex Jones.[/QUOTE] Significant? What's your definition of significant? Alex Jones is crazy.
[QUOTE=sgman91;35706679]Significant? What's your definition of significant? Alex Jones is crazy.[/QUOTE] Can't deny that but he does represent a large number of them.
[QUOTE=sgman91;35706679]Significant? What's your definition of significant? Alex Jones is crazy.[/QUOTE] when I was down by the Occupy Wallstreet protests, I did see a lot of left wingers who were going on about 9/11. However, a LOT of truthers I see are right wing. [editline]25th April 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=asteroidrules;35707054]Can't deny that but he does represent a large number of them.[/QUOTE] This too. He has a fan base, he may be one man, but he has a large group of people under him.
I personally don't think it's the government, why would anyone allow terorists to crash into a building with thousands of people?
This is a subject that I'm both ways on, more of the government took part in somewhat of this day. There was many things that occured that day that seemed the government did take part in it. Lets start off by Silverstein files 2 insurance claims for the maximum amount of the policy, which would have a potential payout of $7.1billion dollars, even though the towers required a $200 million in renovations and improvements. Silverstein made a huge profit from the attacks on the towers by 'terrorism'. Now lets talk about how USAF had to stand down during the attacks. NORAD was conducting a week long exercise which one was a simulation of a high jacking of airliners. There was about 14 'hot' fighter jets ready at several different sites, thats a 3.5 ratio per hijacked plane. The government had enough time to locate and take down the planes but they just told the pilots of the jets to stay in formation over rhode island. On the same day of the attacks of the towers under world trade center 4 housed in a vault four floors beneath the tower that had around $650 million worth of gold and silver in it but after the attack only $200 million was recovered. It seemed at least the better part of a billion dollars worth of precious metals went missing. Comex reported to have atleast $950 million worth of gold stored in the vaults under the tower 4. WTC 7 Did fall from explosives, because the building was across the street from the towers and reported fell from fires. WTC 7 had mayor Giuliani's emergency command center, which had bullet/bomb resistant windows, and independent, secure air and water supply. The building was 100% steel frame building, no steel building have ever fell from a fire. On May 4, 1988 a fire erupted in a 62 story LA skyscraper which large flames jutted out of the building during the blaze, the fire gutted floors from 12-16. Even though the total burnout of 4 and 1/2 floors, there was no damage to the main structure of the building. There is no way that a fire could take down that building during 9/11 that the commission report reported. Secondary explosions inside the building coming from firefighters that were inside the main WTC centers at a staging area. [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IYlEVCpG_0[/url] Pentagon; Where are the pieces of the jetliner that crashed into the building? There is no way that the impact could disintegrate into nothing (There was some Debris but not enough for a boeing 757) . After every plane crash around the world there was never had most to all the pieces disintegrate into thin air. There was about 8600 remaining gallons of fuel in the plane, and there was not/close to any smoke/fire damage to any part of the building, the plane also doesn't even fit in the hole that was created by what ever it was. The dive into the building that is also level with the ground is inpossible because it would have taken way more G's than a airplane can take. There was also NO bodies found at the crash site. I could go on and on with facts/information about that day. I personally think the government DID do it, but I surely don't want to believe that. I've been researching/watching documentaries about 9/11 for the past couple of years. All I ask is don't listen to what other people say or the government. (The government is shady). Take a day out of your life of watching Fox news and do your own research and look at the facts of what happened. It's never going to be proven one way or the other, unless the government comes out of what ACTUALLY happened from their side of that day. All this information I listed above could be found at [url]http://911research.wtc7.net/index.html[/url] and all over the web.
[QUOTE=Snapster;35707327]Now lets talk about how USAF had to stand down during the attacks. NORAD was conducting a week long exercise which one was a simulation of a high jacking of airliners. There was about 14 'hot' fighter jets ready at several different sites, thats a 3.5 ratio per hijacked plane. The government had enough time to locate and take down the planes but they just told the pilots of the jets to stay in formation over rhode island.[/quote] As I already pointed out: in the decade before 9/11: one airplane was forced down, it took over 90 minutes, the hijacked planes were in the air less than 50 minutes. [QUOTE=Snapster;35707327]Pentagon; Where are the pieces of the jetliner that crashed into the building? There is no way that the impact could disintegrate into nothing (There was some Debris but not enough for a boeing 757) . After every plane crash around the world there was never had most to all the pieces disintegrate into thin air. There was about 8600 remaining gallons of fuel in the plane, and there was not/close to any smoke/fire damage to any part of the building, the plane also doesn't even fit in the hole that was created by what ever it was. The dive into the building that is also level with the ground is inpossible because it would have taken way more G's than a airplane can take. There was also NO bodies found at the crash site. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Ninja Duck;35690893]I still find it funny at how conspiracy theorists still claim that it was a missile that hit the Pentagon, they're just so completely stupid and ignorant that they overlook photos that clearly show the remnants of the airplane. [t]http://911research.wtc7.net/pentagon/evidence/photos/docs/moussaoui/P200030_1.jpg[/t][t]http://cdn-www.cracked.com/articleimages/wong/pentagon1.jpg[/t] [t]http://cdn-www.cracked.com/articleimages/wong/pentagon1a.jpg[/t][t]http://cdn-www.cracked.com/articleimages/wong/pentagon1b.jpg[/t] [t]http://cdn-www.cracked.com/articleimages/wong/pentagon1c.jpg[/t] I still have my PMs from CodeMonkey from last year about some images, and he told me searching "NIST, Zakaria Moussaoui or Moussaoui Trials" turns up with some interesting results. Here are some pages of 9/11 photos from individual photographers. Steve McCurry -- [url]http://s756.photobucket.com/albums/xx208/kennyrk3/911%20NIST%20FOIA%20-%20Steve%20McCurry/[/url] George Miller -- [url]http://s756.photobucket.com/albums/xx208/kennyrk3/911%20NIST%20FOIA%20-%20George%20Miller/[/url] Tim Tobiason (306 photos) -- [url]http://s756.photobucket.com/albums/xx208/kennyrk3/911%20NIST%20FOIA%20-%20Tim%20Tobiason/[/url][/QUOTE] That covers the debris, as for the bodies: do you know what happens to a human body when it's impacted at terminal velocity? Or when it's exposed to temperatures that high?
[QUOTE=Snapster;35707327]This is a subject that I'm both ways on, more of the government took part in somewhat of this day. There was many things that occured that day that seemed the government did take part in it. Lets start off by Silverstein files 2 insurance claims for the maximum amount of the policy, which would have a potential payout of $7.1billion dollars, even though the towers required a $200 million in renovations and improvements. Silverstein made a huge profit from the attacks on the towers by 'terrorism'. Now lets talk about how USAF had to stand down during the attacks. NORAD was conducting a week long exercise which one was a simulation of a high jacking of airliners. There was about 14 'hot' fighter jets ready at several different sites, thats a 3.5 ratio per hijacked plane. The government had enough time to locate and take down the planes but they just told the pilots of the jets to stay in formation over rhode island. On the same day of the attacks of the towers under world trade center 4 housed in a vault four floors beneath the tower that had around $650 million worth of gold and silver in it but after the attack only $200 million was recovered. It seemed at least the better part of a billion dollars worth of precious metals went missing. Comex reported to have atleast $950 million worth of gold stored in the vaults under the tower 4. WTC 7 Did fall from explosives, because the building was across the street from the towers and reported fell from fires. WTC 7 had mayor Giuliani's emergency command center, which had bullet/bomb resistant windows, and independent, secure air and water supply. The building was 100% steel frame building, no steel building have ever fell from a fire. On May 4, 1988 a fire erupted in a 62 story LA skyscraper which large flames jutted out of the building during the blaze, the fire gutted floors from 12-16. Even though the total burnout of 4 and 1/2 floors, there was no damage to the main structure of the building. There is no way that a fire could take down that building during 9/11 that the commission report reported. Secondary explosions inside the building coming from firefighters that were inside the main WTC centers at a staging area. [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IYlEVCpG_0[/url] Pentagon; Where are the pieces of the jetliner that crashed into the building? There is no way that the impact could disintegrate into nothing (There was some Debris but not enough for a boeing 757) . After every plane crash around the world there was never had most to all the pieces disintegrate into thin air. There was about 8600 remaining gallons of fuel in the plane, and there was not/close to any smoke/fire damage to any part of the building, the plane also doesn't even fit in the hole that was created by what ever it was. The dive into the building that is also level with the ground is inpossible because it would have taken way more G's than a airplane can take. There was also NO bodies found at the crash site. I could go on and on with facts/information about that day. I personally think the government DID do it, but I surely don't want to believe that. I've been researching/watching documentaries about 9/11 for the past couple of years. All I ask is don't listen to what other people say or the government. (The government is shady). Take a day out of your life of watching Fox news and do your own research and look at the facts of what happened. It's never going to be proven one way or the other, unless the government comes out of what ACTUALLY happened from their side of that day. All this information I listed above could be found at [url]http://911research.wtc7.net/index.html[/url] and all over the web.[/QUOTE] Oh god this is so stupid. Steel buildings can collapse from a fire. Fire weakens steel. Light a fire in the empire state building and watch it collapse (don't actually do that). There's debris from the crash. There's fragments of bodies. There's plenty of things that can be mistaken for bombs (jet fuel pouring down the elevator shaft and exploding). The plane didn't fit the hole because wings shear off and doesn't make a fucking wile e coyote hole in the building. "All this information I listed above could be found at [url]http://911research.wtc7.net/index.html[/url] and all over the web." OH MY GOD THAT MAKES IT FUCKING TRUSTWORTHY I can do it too, but mine is actually factual. [url]http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military/news/1227842[/url]
[QUOTE=asteroidrules;35707054]Can't deny that but he does represent a large number of them.[/QUOTE] "... Democrats were especially likely to suspect federal involvement in 9/11." -http://www.newspolls.org/articles/19604 Of course some Republicans are truthers, but the vast majority are Democrats. Also, there are prominent Democrat birthers as well.
[QUOTE=King Tiger;35683566]I'd be very glad to read just such a thing. Without an explanation, your argument means nothing. You might just be making shit up.[/quote] I'm thinking of a way to address this challenge. For now, I'll refer you to the words of US Marine General Smedley Butler in 1935: [url=http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.pdf]War is a racket[/url]. [quote]"War is a racket. It always has been. It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of the people. Only a small 'inside' group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few, at the expense of the very many. Out of war a few people make huge fortunes."[/quote] [QUOTE=King Tiger;35683566] UN Resolution 1441. Look it up.[/quote]Some people think that was enough, and some don't. Whatever. The legal argument bores me to death. [QUOTE=King Tiger;35683566]Regardless, why did an entirely new conspiracy about WMDs need to be constructed? Why stage 9/11?[/QUOTE] I have said nothing about 9/11 in this thread so far. I just pointed out that some folks had a lot to gain from going to war in Iraq and Afghanistan.
[QUOTE=Snapster;35707327] WTC 7 Did fall from explosives, because the building was across the street from the towers and reported fell from fires. WTC 7 had mayor Giuliani's emergency command center, which had bullet/bomb resistant windows, and independent, secure air and water supply. The building was 100% steel frame building, no steel building have ever fell from a fire. On May 4, 1988 a fire erupted in a 62 story LA skyscraper which large flames jutted out of the building during the blaze, the fire gutted floors from 12-16. Even though the total burnout of 4 and 1/2 floors, there was no damage to the main structure of the building. There is no way that a fire could take down that building during 9/11 that the commission report reported.[/QUOTE] Building 7 fell because it was severely damaged, its structural support was weakened and there was a fire raging in it for a day.
[QUOTE=Governor Goblin;35708301]Building 7 fell because it was severely damaged, its structural support was weakened and there was a fire raging in it for a day.[/QUOTE]I remember debating that exact point you made for over 20 pages on an old 9/11 thread, read the entirety of the NIST report for it as well. Waste of time. He's repeating verbatim bullshit that was debunked nearly a decade ago.
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