• Is fighting for a religion right?
    127 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Gekkosan;38690021]Chopping people's hands off is not something I would agree with, but yes masturbation is bad.[/QUOTE] In what sense? That it reduces risk for prostate cancer? In excessive amounts; yes, anything is. Otherwise it really isn't. The only really bad part I can imagine about masturbation (in non-excessive amounts) would be one having over-zealous parents who'd find out about it. And thus; religion is the issue again.
[QUOTE=Gekkosan;38690021]but yes masturbation is bad.[/QUOTE] You're basing that on...?
[QUOTE=Falubii;38705918]You're basing that on...?[/QUOTE] Religion. Probably.
I think it wrong in so many ways, as someone else has stated tradition does create ignorance along with denial. Instead of "killing" them for their beliefs they should accept it and move on, how can you be right for killing someone FOR your religion. Just my thoughts.
I personally think its a good thing. If you think about it, most, if not all of our morals and laws(such as stealing and killing being things we dont do) are based off of some kind of religion, so once religion is proven wrong, or widely accepted as "bad", those things will become obsolete, laws wont exist, you will be able to get away with whatever hell you want without any authority there to stop you, but that will only last as long as you can defend yourself. Only the strong and intelligent will survive(which means only a small percentage). Like it or not, Religion is the only thing that is(somewhat) holding our society together. So, which would you rather have? Terrorists killing a few people here and there(who will be replaced in a few days, mind you) and some arguments on a discussion board, or the fall of civilization and a return to the wild? I'm sorry if this isnt debating or something, I just wanted say that for the longest time
Fighting in general isn't a good way to solve any problem, at least in my opinion. If you're doing it to protect something then I wouldn't exactly say you're on the 'right' or 'wrong' side; the person who attacked with no real motive (e.g. religion) would be shifting towards the 'wrong' side of the spectrum. Though of course you have to consider if what you're protecting is worth fighting for (in the case of any and every country, yes). But heck, I'm no world leader so I can't say for sure if the motives we know of are actually the reason for all the fighting.
Sun tzu said if fighting is sure to lead to victory then you must fight. thing is he prefaced this by saying if a conflict can be resolved with diplomacy, [B]that[/B] is the best course of action. the art of war is like my bible... <3 sun tzu anyways i think fighting for religion is right but also wrong in a way. everything is subjective in this world, there is no true right or wrong, only what you believe. fighting in the name of god is only a way of excusing going on a crusade, fighting to protect your right to be apart of your religion? yeah i think that's perfectly acceptable. i feel only if something is legitimately threatened should it retaliate. this is also based upon subjective thought as well. because what i think a legitimate threat could be different to someone of that religion (especially if the religon has a really dickish doctrine, and most of them do have sects, even larger groups that believe in assholish ways to go about things and "proving" yourself to god) my own opinion on religion is that it is an archaic relic that needs to be gotten rid of. sure it basically helped create modern civilization. but i think we're smart enough now to know that being a good person should come naturally, not just because some man in the sky is going to make you suffer hard when you die. really when it boils down to it, all religious belief (that imo isn't bullshit), utilitarian and objective ideals come to the same conclusion. [I][B]be a good person[/B][/I] that's all. the problem i have with religion is it's so caught up in itself people forget the simple message is simply to be a good person, regardless of what happens to you after death. it's religion getting caught up in itself in that way, THEN members of it thinking they have a right to fight with violence when they forgot the whole point [sp]be a good person[/sp]
Like I said: people should be allowed to practice their own religions, if someone tries to forbid them from doing so then, as with all of their other rights, they should fight for it if that becomes necessary. Now fighting for religious dominance or to wipe out another religion on the other hand is just the opposite, infringing on someone else's rights, and that is most certainly [b]not[/b] right.
[QUOTE=asteroidrules;38771103]Like I said: people should be allowed to practice their own religions, if someone tries to forbid them from doing so then, as with all of their other rights, they should fight for it if that becomes necessary. Now fighting for religious dominance or to wipe out another religion on the other hand is just the opposite, infringing on someone else's rights, and that is most certainly [b]not[/b] right.[/QUOTE] What if practicing your religion is the same as fighting for religious dominance? Surely Christian/Muslim extremists believe they are doing God's will.
Weren't we always taught to stand up for what we believe in?
Religion makes people fight, and promises them with the false gifts of whatever that particular religion decides. In Islam, it's said that if you die fighting for your religion (as well as defending your family, or dying from drowning / fire or a construction falling on you [it's not just dying for your religion, is what I'm saying]) before your first drop of blood hits the ground, you're in Heaven. And in Heaven, you get all the different rewards, and if you were unmarried at the time of your death, you will have a wife waiting for you in Heaven. I think fighting for religion is wrong, but so many people are brainwashed into believing that fighting and dying for their religion will grant them a wealth of rewards, and is the right and honorable thing. It's sad to think of all the people who have happily thrown their lives away for religion, and in the end - well, there's nothing waiting for them.
[QUOTE=Irkalla;38600815]Religion is a belief. No one should ever not stand up for what they believe is right. The moment we do, we start having powerful figures that dictate to us what is right and wrong to suit their own interests. However, the moment where standing up causes injustice to another party is the moment that standing up becomes just another injustice.[/QUOTE] That was great, man. Time for my own opinion now. I think that fighting [i]wars[/i] for a religion these days is generally wrong. People did it in the old testament of the Bible, yes I'm a Christian, but after the coming of Jesus he taught generally more peaceful teachings. He saved a woman from being stoned to death for adultery, even though the Old Testament commanded it. So I'm on the peaceful side with this one.
[QUOTE=Sableye;38673342]i personally believe you have a right to discuss your views, and defend your views, but if someone is belligerent enough, that won't matter because they believe they are right, and especially with religion, they will think no matter what you say, you are wrong. however using violence to force your religion or eliminate someone else's religion is something i disagree with, and if more people in the world learned to not give 2 shits about what other people believe in, maybe the world would be a little better place[/QUOTE] I would agree that generally you should let others have their own beliefs and opinions, and if those are different to yours, then don't resort to violence or oppression. However, consider the situation in which some controlling force is preventing their community to practice certain religions or hold certain beliefs. This situation arose from originally someone (or a group of people) trying to force others to see that their belief or way of life is "right", and I think in this case fighting for beliefs (religious or otherwise) to overcome the oppression would be acceptable. Even then it is probably a last resort, first try negotiation. Of course things are a lot different when your "beliefs" or "way of life" is infringing on other's freedom. Except in the case where you are putting someone to jail for a crime, I don't think this is an acceptable thing to do. When you have two parties who just cannot reconcile their differences and moreover cannot agree to disagree, then you have a very sticky situation. Perhaps outside intervention is justified in this case?
[QUOTE=maximizer39v2;38784226]That was great, man. Time for my own opinion now. I think that fighting [I]wars[/I] for a religion these days is generally wrong. People did it in the old testament of the Bible, yes I'm a Christian, but after the coming of Jesus he taught generally more peaceful teachings. He saved a woman from being stoned to death for adultery, even though the Old Testament commanded it. So I'm on the peaceful side with this one.[/QUOTE] So let's say some extremist group (be it radical atheists, radical muslims, radical christians, or radical anti-religious people [and yes, all of these things exist. don't be so sanctimonious]) gets in power that thinks whatever you believe should be illegal to believe. The belief is made illegal. You mean to tell me that you aren't willing to kill and die to defend your right to believe whatever the hell you want?
Well I didn't really go too in depth into my post, it was really late. I sure as hell would fight to defend my religion, just not attack another.
[QUOTE=LorencBag;38773797]Weren't we always taught to stand up for what we believe in?[/QUOTE] Yeah but we're not taught to strap bombs to our chests and kill innocent men, women, and children. Well, we shouldn't be taught that.
[QUOTE=Irkalla;38790101]So let's say some extremist group (be it radical atheists, radical muslims, radical christians, or radical anti-religious people [and yes, all of these things exist. don't be so sanctimonious]) gets in power that thinks whatever you believe should be illegal to believe. The belief is made illegal. You mean to tell me that you aren't willing to kill and die to defend your right to believe whatever the hell you want?[/QUOTE] I think in such a scenario the issue would be less about religion and more about liberty.
[QUOTE=Gekkosan;38690021]Chopping people's hands off is not something I would agree with, but yes masturbation is bad.[/QUOTE] wait what? what's wrong with masturbation? it's pretty much the most purely self-regarding action that you can do.
I personally think violence should be an act of self-defense pretty much exclusively. Hence, no, I don't at all think you should commit a violent act as a response to somebody disrespecting your opinion, but the second you are actively being aggrieved for your opinions or beliefs, it's up to you.
This may be just my atheistic beliefs talking, but I think that It's a pointless effort. Unless one religion is discriminated against as part of a bullcrap political agenda, then religion arguments get us no-where. There will always be the nut-jobs who are convinced that the other person is Evil or demented. There's nothing that will ever change that. If play with religion, your playing with fire. It's been that way since the beginning of civilization. People will get so wrapped up in their own delusions that they'll be willing to kill for them. Even in western civilization, that will still happen. The only solution to the problem is to completely avoid it. No country can ever be completely secular without being communist. And with that in mind, my answer is No. Fighting for religion is never right and will never get us anywhere.
I think the only time it's okay to fight for a religion is when they try to pass a law forbidding you of believing what you want. Fighting and dying for a religion against another religion however in my eyes is a pointless ind-ever. I'm agnostic and believe there could be things we don't know about but most likely there isn't.
Seeing as how most "Gods" advocate for peace, I'd say no.
No. If we had any small realization of the length of time we live on average, in relation to all the time there ever was, we'd not waste a single second we're given in these human bodies we are doomed to inhabit in the servitude of another, deity or otherwise.
No. You shouldn't. Religion was created for individuals to band together as brothers and sisters of faith. Not for killing people with different ideas and spirituality.
Kind of reminds me of when Christians were killing people in the Middle East due to religious beliefs. It's like, what the fuck happened to thou shall not kill? In short, no. Religion, can be a dangerous thing, especially for anyone who isn't strictly Christian. Why do you think Jews and Muslims always have a hard time? Because one little fuckup from a religious group can send the other ones raging over everyone in that religious category. It's vicious.
[QUOTE=Torjuz;38565737][B]NOTE: This is a unstable subject, please do not flame or "mock" other religions. You can of course say that some people in that religion are stupid fanatics but if it's not necessary, don't. Happy debating everyone.[/B] Looking at the Israel Versus Palestine, should it be right to kill others in favor to your religion? Should a religion "be allowed" to spark a long term "disaster" like it did in the Middle East? Should you be able to stand up for your religion belief even if it's blasphemy for other religions? I think it's wrong for fanatics to kill other people because of their religion. It's even stated in most religions that "You shall not kill", so why kill others? Also saying that [B]"MOSES GAVE US THIS LAND, WE WANT IT NOW!"[/B] is not a proper way to "get" land that's now originally a part of Palestine. I also think that religions that "turn others" should be accused for blasphemy because some people are obviously cranking down other religions.[/QUOTE] You're looking at it the wrong way. It's not religious at all. It's entirely political, and everything else just stems from that.
I don't think there's anything wrong with defending your personal faith or beliefs but said beliefs should never be used to start or propogate a conflict.
Sorry but I have to call you on some bullshit [QUOTE=Ekko;38598979]This was quite easy since people weren't very intelligent back then and those who were, used it mostly for their own good. [/QUOTE] Wow. So your parents are less intelligent than you because they lived in a generation before you? Historical context, bro. At the time, what you might have considered "not intelligent" was probably average for them. Scientific discoveries were just getting off their feet. [quote] People go with the flow of tradition. Tradition creates ignorance, traditon also creates denial, but most of all it creates people who our bound by religion.[/quote] So what, all of a sudden tradition is a bad guy? What's wrong with believing in a higher power, be it real or not? And who are you to say that this is "False hope" even though this hope can inspire many people to do good things (besides fighting)? [quote]I don't remember what made me question my belief in God, but it probably has to do with growing up and understanding the world trough science. But who knows, maybe the scientists are the wise men this time around? [/quote] Yes, actually, the scientists are the "wise men" this time around. I grew up reading elementary science magazines and nowadays I read a more in-depth one, so when my mom's inbox started getting chain mails that claim that "cell phones emit harmful radiation to your brain" and that kind of stuff, I called BS. Yet even with all the facts that I throw at her at why this "problem" if you can even call it that is not true, she still says, "well just in case". See? They're already manipulating my mother. Scientists are in a position where they can cite some study and make the general public believe something even if other scientists repeat that study or point out flaws. Who knows, maybe they've even convinced me about something. Also, I see you bring up the "science and religion can't mix" card. Then why try? You don't HAVE to prove your faith, that's what faith is all about. Likewise you don't have to try and disprove everyone else's. And that brings me to my next point. I think there IS a good reason to fight for religion, and that's when it's being suppressed. Anyone should be able to practice their religion without some forceful conversion attempts made on them (if they want to convert they'll make the decision themselves), and I believe that if someone is trying to forcefully get rid of any belief of yours that you have personal reasons to keep that you should kick their ass. Maybe your religion actually inspires you to do good things. Maybe ever since you've become involved in the religion you've begun improving your life. Who knows? The point is that some people actually like their religion, and we all know that if you try to take something away from someone that they like, there's going to be a fight. The good news is that at least in more developed countries, freedom of religion is a reality, so in most cases we don't even HAVE to fight over it. [editline]20th December 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=JaspertheDoxie;38886938]Kind of reminds me of when Christians were killing people in the Middle East due to religious beliefs.[/QUOTE] Isn't it the other way around?
[QUOTE=BFG9000;38915278]So what, all of a sudden tradition is a bad guy? What's wrong with believing in a higher power, be it real or not? And who are you to say that this is "False hope" even though this hope can inspire many people to do good things (besides fighting)?[/quote] Well by definition 'false hope' refers to hope you get out of a falsehood, or perhaps in this case at least something that's without any certainty. I could make an argument that the idea of the Christian god (as most believers may know it) to be logically contradictory, but the point remains. [QUOTE=BFG9000;38915278]See? They're already manipulating my mother. Scientists are in a position where they can cite some study and make the general public believe something even if other scientists repeat that study or point out flaws. Who knows, maybe they've even convinced me about something.[/quote] They? There is no 'church of scientists' sending out deceitful messages to try and mislead you. If a report of some kind has flaws or issues, then the scientific method (if anything you might call 'science') should call it into question by its very nature. Even so, what point are you trying to make by saying that alleged scientists might mislead someone with a faulty study? In any event they'll at least have *some* substantiation for what they're trying to say, religious claims often have none. [QUOTE=BFG9000;38915278]Also, I see you bring up the "science and religion can't mix" card. Then why try? You don't HAVE to prove your faith, that's what faith is all about. Likewise you don't have to try and disprove everyone else's.[/quote] Well, yes and no. You don't have to prove it, but I wonder what you even mean in this case by 'have to'. By your logic, I don't have to prove for example, that there really is a skeleton in the shape of Satan frozen under some ice in Antarctica, since there is no way you, I, or anyone else in the immediate future can confirm it. It's certainly no more fantastic than the claim that there is an all-powerful/all-good/all-knowing being on some supernatural plane of existence. It's not as if claims of faith are just somehow exempt from criticism. Nothing is. You certainly don't have to criticize it, but in the realm of a debate, and trying to bring ourselves closer to the truth, as close as we can, such claims do us no good. [QUOTE=BFG9000;38915278]Maybe your religion actually inspires you to do good things. Maybe ever since you've become involved in the religion you've begun improving your life. Who knows? The point is that some people actually like their religion, and we all know that if you try to take something away from someone that they like, there's going to be a fight.[/quote] Again, many things can inspire people. The fact that a religion or religious beliefs are capable of doing this does not validate them as true. Some religious beliefs, as was seen during the Crusades for Christianity and to a lesser extent in modern times, can influence violence, or provide leaders some justification for war. No doubt even today we see a major grouping of religious beliefs used as justification for the oppression of women, such as in Iran with Ayatollah Khomeini.
If you need to defend your immortal, all powerful, all knowing, all encompassing sky fairy. yeah..
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