• If you die but have an exact clone are you dead?
    310 replies, posted
Exactly what the title says. Example would be that someone is "teleported" from one point to another, which creates a new consciousness that is exactly the same as the previous one. Is that person dead or not? In my opinion, it would be yes. The previous consciousness would always differ from the new one in some way.
[QUOTE=Fatman55;33872016]creates a new consciousness that is [B]exactly the same[/B] as the previous one[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Fatman55;33872016]The previous consciousness [B]would always differ[/B] from the new one in some way.[/QUOTE] I'm not following your logic here
[QUOTE=acidcj;33872088]I'm not following your logic here[/QUOTE] i think what he's saying is that it's a person identical to the other one, without being the same person
[B]You[/B] would be dead. Your clone would not be dead. Other people may or may not know that you are dead.
Yes. [B]You[/B] are pushing up daisies, but an exact clone of you is alive. The same argument can be made against teleportation.
Unless you believe that the "you" is more than just a physical configuration of atoms in space, then the answer is obviously no, "you" are still "you."
[QUOTE=rinoaff33;33872140][B]You[/B] would be dead. Your clone would not be dead. Other people may or may not know that you are dead.[/QUOTE] It's as simple as this, really. But now: Teleporter scenario, person goes into teleporter, he is destroyed. He is now dead and everything is dark for him. (Let's pretend that's how being dead is) His atoms are beamed to another location, where they are rebuilt to form a replica of the conciousness and body of the person that walked into the teleporter. The replica will now be conciousness #2, as #1 is gone. Conciousness #2 believes that it is conciousness #1, and nobody notices that conciousness #1 is gone. So basically, for the person that goes in (Conciousness #1) he will see the teleporter start, then he will cease to exist. The person that comes out (Conciousness #2) will be the same as #1, except he still exists and remembers everything before and after the teleportation. It's strange to think of, and I'm not entirely sure if it's the correct way to think. For some reason, I feel that it's impossible that conciousness #1 can be teleported without being permanently destroyed. But now when I think about it even more, I realize that our conciousness is in the end a physical configuration. It should be possible to send it just like you can send regular atoms, thus keeping conciousness #1. I love thinking about this.
Wait a minute. Do you mean alive in the sense that: 1. A copy of your physical self and all your memories and your consciousness are still there, so you effectively are alive and still exist? or 2. Because a copy of your physical self with an exact consciousness exists, you somehow live on having experiences in the new clone as if nothing happened? No for the first one I guess, and for the second one, yes, you're dead, but I don't think you even need to use the reasoning you used. I think people want to believe that if your consciousness and physical self were copied to somewhere else, you would start having experiences in that other body, but it's tied to the first "you" only. [QUOTE=paul simon;33872275]It's as simple as this, really. But now: Teleporter scenario, person goes into teleporter, he is destroyed. He is now dead and everything is dark for him. (Let's pretend that's how being dead is) His atoms are beamed to another location, where they are rebuilt to form a replica of the conciousness and body of the person that walked into the teleporter. The replica will now be conciousness #2, as #1 is gone. Conciousness #2 believes that it is conciousness #1, and nobody notices that conciousness #1 is gone. So basically, for the person that goes in (Conciousness #1) he will see the teleporter start, then he will cease to exist. The person that comes out (Conciousness #2) will be the same as #1, except he still exists and remembers everything before and after the teleportation. It's strange to think of, and I'm not entirely sure if it's the correct way to think. For some reason, I feel that it's impossible that conciousness #1 can be teleported without being permanently destroyed. But now when I think about it even more, I realize that our conciousness is in the end a physical configuration. It should be possible to send it just like you can send regular atoms, thus keeping conciousness #1. I love thinking about this.[/QUOTE] Yeah, this helps a lot. The "copying" method of teleporting, if you want to call it that, is really scary to think about. If you can move the actual particles...problem solved.
[QUOTE=Splarg!;33872358] Yeah, this helps a lot. The "copying" method of teleporting, if you want to call it that, is really scary to think about. If you can move the actual particles...problem solved.[/QUOTE] How is copying and destroying any different from moving?
[QUOTE=acidcj;33872586]How is copying and destroying any different from moving?[/QUOTE] Exactly what gets me right here.
If you die but have an identical twin are you dead?
[QUOTE=acidcj;33872586]How is copying and destroying any different from moving?[/QUOTE] Outside observation sees no difference, but if you make an exact copy of yourself in a different spot, would you expect to start feeling the skin of your clone, seeing out of its eyes, etc?
No, you would be dead. A clone is a clone, it is not your consciousness.
IMO: You're dead. If you copy the contents of a flash drive to a new identical flash drive then smash the original with a hammer, is the original flash drive fucked?
[IMG]http://i42.tinypic.com/2cyh8g3.jpg[/IMG] [highlight](User was banned for this post ("This is NOT how you debate / Image macro" - Craptasket))[/highlight]
I think that everything would be the same as before. Your brain would be in the same condition as it was before the clone.
[QUOTE=Supacasey;33873012]IMO: You're dead. If you copy the contents of a flash drive to a new identical flash drive then smash the original with a hammer, is the original flash drive fucked?[/QUOTE] Exactly this. And the outside view of this can also be expressed with this.
Yes, you are dead, but if no one would find out, then no one thinks you are dead. That raises another question, how will people feel when they find out that you are dead, and realize your clone is the one they've been hanging around with?
Consider this. You slowly replace your brain with electronic parts that mimic the functions of your original brain entirely. If only a tiny fraction of your brain was replaced by the electronic part, I don't think you could say that the person is an entirely new being. What happens when those tiny fractions accumulate over time, you continually replace parts of your brain, and eventually the entire brain is made of electronic parts, all while you retain your original consciousness? Of course, that technology isn't available to us right now, but I can't think of an answer to this.
Probably not.. It depends on how "deep" the cloning process goes though. Personally I think conciousness is an emergent phenomena that arises from the quantum configuration such as spin and entanglement of all of the particle in our body. If you were to clone a human simply at a molecular level, these particles would not have the same configuration as the others.
Think about it this way. If you're standing on the left of the room looking to the right of the room, you see the right of the room. If your clone is standing on the right of the looking to the left of the room it would see the left. This means that there would be two conscious, alike minds but with different experiences (seeing a different side of the room). The body that is killed will no longer experience anything else, therefore it's dead. But the other would continue to experience new things, and those experiences would not magically warp to your dead corpse. If a clone were ever to exist it would only have the same memories and physical properties of the subject that was cloned, therefore after the clone is born, anything beyond that point wouldn't be attached to you in any way in terms of life or death, and it would be the same the other way around. In short, no, you would not be alive.
I'm pretty sure you would be dead, except if you can magically transfer your thoughts and character into that other clone.
[QUOTE=PieClock;33874324]Think about it this way. If you're standing on the left of the room looking to the right of the room, you see the right of the room. If your clone is standing on the right of the looking to the left of the room it would see the left. This means that there would be two conscious, alike minds but with different experiences (seeing a different side of the room). The body that is killed will no longer experience anything else, therefore it's dead. But the other would continue to experience new things, and those experiences would not magically warp to your dead corpse. If a clone were ever to exist it would only have the same memories and physical properties of the subject that was cloned, therefore after the clone is born, anything beyond that point wouldn't be attached to you in any way in terms of life or death, and it would be the same the other way around. In short, no, you would not be alive.[/QUOTE] This, pretty much. The nanosecond your clone's done being cloned, it'd be an entirely different person all together. There's also tons of religious factors in this matter, like if the clone would survive without a soul, or the soul would be cloned and the universe would colapse etc.
I had the same thoughts after I watched "The 6th Day" but I'd say no, the clone would be a different person.
Say someone (A soldier for example) had an exact copy of their memories and their personality taken a day before they went into a battle, then they were killed in that battle. The mind-copy was implanted into a clone. I don't think that it would really be the same person as they haven't shared the same experiences up until death. So yes, I think you're dead.
Yup, you would be dead. Lets say that you were to break someone down into individual pieces, like atoms. They are dead then. But then you re-assemble their atoms/molecules and you have a new person, just not the original, kind of like recycling.
[QUOTE=DMGaina;33874486]I had the same thoughts after I watched "The 6th Day" but I'd say no, the clone would be a different person.[/QUOTE] The 6th day was an amazing movie
[QUOTE=Fatman55;33872016]Exactly what the title says. Example would be that someone is "teleported" from one point to another, which creates a new consciousness that is exactly the same as the previous one. Is that person dead or not? In my opinion, it would be yes. The previous consciousness would always differ from the new one in some way.[/QUOTE] If the stream of consciousness is broken then the first person would be dead. But you should really rephrase your question, as it is contradictory.
I like to think that the orginial would pass into the clone and take controll
A clone is still only a copy, if you copy a file on your computer and delete the original, it's still a copy and not the original copy.
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