• If you die but have an exact clone are you dead?
    310 replies, posted
Nope, you are dead. A clone is a different person who happens to look exactly like you, perhaps have the same memories and thoughts, but it isn't you. A simple example: There is a malfunction and the clone is made before you die. Do you share consciousness between two bodies? Nope. This is why I hate games/books/movies that use cloning as a way of providing immortality/second chance to it's characters. No one addresses the issue that the original person is actually dead.
That depends really if consciousness is something not constricted to your own body. Also, there is no way of saying if it is, since if we make a, lets say teleportation device that makes an excact clone of you, with all your memories and everything, and destroy the you that is entering the teleporter, one can't ask the "Teleported" clone if he is the same as the one who entered, as he will always say yes, as he is excactly like the one who entered. However, there is a possibility that the person who entered is dead, and his consciousness is "Gone", but since he is completely the same for any outside observant, everyone else will see it as if it worked perfectly, and the consciousness was transfered. [editline]24th December 2011[/editline] However, we don't know enough about consciousness, to say for sure what will happen. For example, when you sleep, you lose your consciousness, and you just wake up. It might be that when you have an excact clone, your consciousness will "Sleep", and it will go to the other "You"
Yes. Your conciousness isn't "copied" because you can't control two people at once. From anyone else's perspective , you haven't died. but in your own , you have. you have no control over your duplicate.
[QUOTE=rinoaff33;33872140][B]You[/B] would be dead. Your clone would not be dead. Other people may or may not know that you are dead.[/QUOTE] The clone is you, they are an exact clone. If other people can not tell the difference then it does not matter if there is a difference or not, so you would not be dead. This is what would happen if we made a teleporter, it would clone you in a different place and kill the "original" [editline]24th December 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Populus89;33875495]Nope, you are dead. A clone is a different person who happens to look exactly like you, perhaps have the same memories and thoughts, but it isn't you. A simple example: There is a malfunction and the clone is made before you die. Do you share consciousness between two bodies? Nope. This is why I hate games/books/movies that use cloning as a way of providing immortality/second chance to it's characters. No one addresses the issue that the original person is actually dead.[/QUOTE] Well if they are the same, their brain will be built in the same and have the same pulses of electricity in the same place (when you were cloned anyway). Obviously the actions of other things will affect both of you in a different way but if you were clone just before you were killed/died then the clone would be "you"
It depends on how you're defining the word "you". You, as the "self", would be dead of course. Other people are going to know you by your traits, and if your clone demonstrates the exact same traits that you used to, to them it's like you were never gone, and "you" may live on in a way.
:I
[QUOTE=Bat-shit;33876680]:I[/QUOTE] Intriguing argument you've got there
Well, 98% of our atoms are replaced each year, I belive our neurons which use energy like any other cell have the atoms replaced. Over years, the large majority is replaced, resulting you in the same end state as the teleport clone. Maybe we are a conscious being constantly being slowly replaced, resulting in our atoms changing but our electrical impulses are not. So if you teleported, used the same atoms (Which go in the exact same order as before) can create an impulse exactly the same for a few micro-seconds before the brain becomes self aware again. These few seconds are you, so it is you and your brain goes on the constantly changing journey again. How ever, if you used different atoms the being creates similar impulses but it goes down to a massivly micro-scopic level that you are different, but still different ofcourse. Atoms are what we are, but can be changed aslong as the electrical impulse can exist while being changed. So my theory: Different atoms than 5 years ago, electrical impulse from birth = you. Same atoms, electrical impulse dies for a time = same electrical impulse from birth. Electrical impulse dies, atoms are changed in the mean time = Not you. Electrical impulse is directly copied into atoms exactly ordered as yours, but not the same atoms = Different impulse = not you. Electrical impulse directly pulled (Not copied) from you into atoms more or less exactly ordered as yours = you Atoms are different in their own special way which means nothing can be exactly the same. So if you teleported with your impulse placed into different atoms instantly, its you, ect... So with this confusing and long logic that helped me understand this (Thanks), a new conscious implies its a copied impulse = not your conscious. LONG LONG story short, using your scenario, it is NOT you. Note: Atoms can never be exactly ordered the same unless using "advanced" teleportation. PLEASE FEEL FREE TO SIMPLIFY THIS!
[QUOTE=paul simon;33879660]Intriguing argument you've got there[/QUOTE] "If you die but have an exact clone are you dead?" also an intriguing subject of debate
The concept is really unsettling to me and I don't really know why. Yes, I think the original "you" would be dead, for reasons stated in the previous posts.
Real clones aren't like the ones in Sci-Fi movies or novels. A clone is simply a person/animal that has the exact same DNA as another. It's its own being. You are not psychically linked or anything.
If it has an independent mind that you cannot control, then no it is not you and even suggesting it is is dumb. He would be your twin, but not you since everything that he experienced differently than you would result in him further developing to be different from you. Killing the original does not make a copy original anymore. It's still a copy.
[QUOTE=Cheezy;33874744]If the stream of consciousness is broken then the first person would be dead. But you should really rephrase your question, as it is contradictory.[/QUOTE] THANK YOU! I never could think of a way to describe it, but stream of consciousness describes what I am thinking perfectly.
[QUOTE=Bat-shit;33876680]:I[/QUOTE] Oh my god, eureka. This is the answer to life, people.
Yes. Even though your clone is an identical copy of yourself, but you physically have no control over him as he or she is more of an individual person.
[QUOTE=supersoldier58;33881591]Well, 98% of our atoms are replaced each year, I belive our neurons which use energy like any other cell have the atoms replaced. Over years, the large majority is replaced, resulting you in the same end state as the teleport clone. Maybe we are a conscious being constantly being slowly replaced, resulting in our atoms changing but our electrical impulses are not. So if you teleported, used the same atoms (Which go in the exact same order as before) can create an impulse exactly the same for a few micro-seconds before the brain becomes self aware again. These few seconds are you, so it is you and your brain goes on the constantly changing journey again. How ever, if you used different atoms the being creates similar impulses but it goes down to a massivly micro-scopic level that you are different, but still different ofcourse. Atoms are what we are, but can be changed aslong as the electrical impulse can exist while being changed. So my theory: Different atoms than 5 years ago, electrical impulse from birth = you. Same atoms, electrical impulse dies for a time = same electrical impulse from birth. Electrical impulse dies, atoms are changed in the mean time = Not you. Electrical impulse is directly copied into atoms exactly ordered as yours, but not the same atoms = Different impulse = not you. Electrical impulse directly pulled (Not copied) from you into atoms more or less exactly ordered as yours = you Atoms are different in their own special way which means nothing can be exactly the same. So if you teleported with your impulse placed into different atoms instantly, its you, ect... So with this confusing and long logic that helped me understand this (Thanks), a new conscious implies its a copied impulse = not your conscious. LONG LONG story short, using your scenario, it is NOT you. Note: Atoms can never be exactly ordered the same unless using "advanced" teleportation. PLEASE FEEL FREE TO SIMPLIFY THIS![/QUOTE] an electrical impulse can be on or off, so all impulses must be on and so all the same, it is just the the arrangement of electrical impulses in the brain which gives an appearance of conscious thought. also, ive always thought teleportation would be making an exact copy of you at the location which you wish to go (exact as in every atom, every joule of energy is in the same place as when you were copied and then deleting the orignal)
[QUOTE=proch;33888393]Oh my god, eureka. This is the answer to life, people.[/QUOTE] Huh, I thought life was just a mere phenomenon in Space. Evidently a rare one too.
I find this to be one of the most interesting things to think about. I think that if your body is destroyed and a perfect replica is created, then they are the same consciousness, whether or not the process is discontinuous. I think that the mind is completely material in nature, so that if I can examine both minds and determine that there is no physical difference between them, I can't make any claim that they are different people. It's thinking about that which informed my opinions of the self, and not the other way around. The whole claim that the new copy isn't "you" begs the question of what "youness" is.
-nope
[QUOTE=PvtCupcakes;33886454]Real clones aren't like the ones in Sci-Fi movies or novels. A clone is simply a person/animal that has the exact same DNA as another. It's its own being. You are not psychically linked or anything.[/QUOTE] Yes well everybody knows I'm not talking about that kind of clone. And what I meant by exactly the same is that at that instant the "clone" would have the same thoughts, memories, or anything that you had at the time.
Actually if you had 2 clones and they lived in different places and experienced different lives, they would be two different persons.
[QUOTE=Bat-shit;33913452]Actually if you had 2 clones and they lived in different places and experienced different lives, they would be two different persons.[/QUOTE] I don't think you read it right. Basically in one instant you were destroyed and an exact copy was created in a different location. So is it still you or somebody else? [editline]26th December 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;33907494]The whole claim that the new copy isn't "you" begs the question of what "youness" is.[/QUOTE] And this, if it isn't you then what are you?
Of course you die Even if you think the same way, it is still [B][I]you[/I][/B] who dies, and not your clone
We seem to have established that "you" would be dead whereas the clone would not. However, cloning doesn't necesserily include humans. For instance, potato- and strawberry plants can perfectly well "clone" themselves by sending out new seeds (potatoes, with the same DNA) and then seperating themselves from them. No, I'm not suggesting that two potatoes are the same potato. But rather, is there a possibility that two strawberry plants are the "same" plant. The answer to this should be equal two the answer regarding human cloning. [B]EDIT[/B] As JohnnyMo1 suggested it all begs an answer to what "you" are. Are you more than what is explained through science or just the mass of all your parts. According to the latter, two people (one the clone of the other) differ in no way to one another unitil they start getting different experiences (i.e. probably right after the cloning process). If you regard "you" as nothing but a individual made up of certain atoms and whatnot (and therefore suggesting that the clone differ from you), bare in mind that "you" then are always changing. On another note, which of the two people are "you"? The clone or the "original"? Both would claim to be "you".
But a strawberry plant can't report its experiences. The problem with this is the experiences that each phase would experience. original body:"oh god this tingles oh god what happened to my arm why am i being disintegrated oh fuck that hurts" then death clone:'well i stepped in the booth then i disintegrated then i was here" If they were the same person, then the experience would be the same. They aren't though.
more importantly: if your clone dies, are you dead?
Your clone believes they are you, but as I stated, I don't believe you are dead.
[QUOTE=LordCrypto;33916088]Your clone believes they are you, but as I stated, I don't believe you are dead.[/QUOTE]No the clone believes he is he, not you. The same way you believe you are you, not him. Which means you are different people, since you both think that of yourself.
You're alive for anyone but you. It's simple. (And for some reason I'm imagining huge protests against teleportation technology stating that "ITS NOT THE SAME PERSON ANYMORE")
[QUOTE=qwerty000;33917498]You're alive for anyone but you. It's simple. (And for some reason I'm imagining huge protests against teleportation technology stating that "ITS NOT THE SAME PERSON ANYMORE")[/QUOTE] Solution= Have you and your clones merge into all computers and DNA as a collective and become the Geth
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