• Replacement Monitor for a High Quality CRT
    75 replies, posted
[QUOTE=4RT1LL3RY;27611313]Thats true with me too, but there are cases where it always happens. Move your mouse quickly in a circle, you see multiple after images of the mouse. You can see a more severe case when you grab a window with text and move it side to side; the text blurs. Motion blur in games and in video is too the point to where it matters much less but it is still there. Its weird when you go from a CRT to an LCD and when you move the mouse their is the trail. On a CRT you don't see this, you do get a slight aura effect when moving a white mouse on a purely black screen fast enough, but that is the phosphors lowering their energy state as fast as possible.[/QUOTE] On the moving the mouse thing, I'm fairly sure that's your eyes, not the screen. If you move your mouse in circles on a CRT you will get multiple images of the mouse too because of your brains perception of multiple successive frames. Do the circle test and follow the cursor with your eyes and you will see that it's not the monitor, but your eyes playing tricks on you.
[QUOTE=Jallen;27627246]On the moving the mouse thing, I'm fairly sure that's your eyes, not the screen. If you move your mouse in circles on a CRT you will get multiple images of the mouse too because of your brains perception of multiple successive frames. Do the circle test and follow the cursor with your eyes and you will see that it's not the monitor, but your eyes playing tricks on you.[/QUOTE] I dont see any afterimages on my current monitor (maybe on a black background). but here on my work laptop, i can nearly create a complete circle of arrows with a bright facepunch background. [editline]24th January 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=TheLolrus;27600916]What. 8ms latency is considered slow now?[/QUOTE] According to all the reviews i was reading, its horrendous! of course, they could only tell by using a camera with a fast shutter.
I still have a 30ms Dell monitor from around 2003. The ghosting effect is minimal at best though. You really only notice it if your looking for it.
I've been using my Dell U2311H for gaming since october, haven't noticed ghosting or blurring, and I regularly play TF2 and Bad Company 2. They have good build quality, and a great image image quality. The fact that you can rotate it from portrait to horizontal is nice for web-browsing, too.
How does the U2211H compare to the 23". The U2211H was on sale for $199 and I'm thinking about getting it.
[QUOTE=4RT1LL3RY;27640537]How does the U2211H compare to the 23". The U2211H was on sale for $199 and I'm thinking about getting it.[/QUOTE] [url]http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/dell_u2211h.htm[/url] At $199 it's a steal.
[QUOTE=4RT1LL3RY;27640537]How does the U2211H compare to the 23". The U2211H was on sale for $199 and I'm thinking about getting it.[/QUOTE] It's almost the same, except for a slightly lower brightness I think, and a few reviews said it had a little more backlight bleed than the 2311
[QUOTE=Odellus;27640610][url]http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/dell_u2211h.htm[/url] At $199 it's a steal.[/QUOTE] Pulled the trigger on it. Looking forward to February 1st. I now have a reason to upgrade to a monitor with display port too. I will be able to do a good comparison between my CRT and a nice IPS panel finally. [img]http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/images/dell_u2211h/contrast_comparison.jpg[/img] Contrast ratios are really good calibrated; I'll make sure to spend the time doing it properly. Its lower brightness max, but you never drive a monitor at max; they get washed out. This tn-panel I'm using is at 18/100 so it can actually show black.
[QUOTE=4RT1LL3RY;27642615]Pulled the trigger on it. Looking forward to February 1st. I now have a reason to upgrade to a monitor with display port too. I will be able to do a good comparison between my CRT and a nice IPS panel finally. [img_thumb]http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/images/dell_u2211h/contrast_comparison.jpg[/img_thumb] Contrast ratios are really good calibrated; I'll make sure to spend the time doing it properly. Its lower brightness max, but you never drive a monitor at max; they get washed out. This tn-panel I'm using is at 18/100 so it can actually show black.[/QUOTE] I thought TN panels weren't capable of true black.
[QUOTE=garrynohome;27642962]I thought TN panels weren't capable of true black.[/QUOTE] I didn't say true black, I got it as good as I could though. There is no banding on monitor calibration tests for black to white. I have the gamma as close to 2.2 as I could get. I think the color temperature is off a bit so I should recalibrate.
[QUOTE=Zah;27630417]I dont see any afterimages on my current monitor (maybe on a black background). but here on my work laptop, i can nearly create a complete circle of arrows with a bright facepunch background. [editline]24th January 2011[/editline] According to all the reviews i was reading, its horrendous! of course, they could only tell by using a camera with a fast shutter.[/QUOTE] Shit, then I'm behind the times.
[QUOTE=Odellus;27595691][I]Only a Trinitron[/I]. Do you have any idea what you have there?[/QUOTE] A boatload of issues? Besides them being the best tube out there, its made by sony. These things are infamous for blowing out. [QUOTE=Darkimmortal;27595539]It's only a 17" trinitron, not very practical for use as a primary monitor[/QUOTE] Yeah, only? I got two 21" Trinitrons on my desk, both powered on. This is VERY practical for primary and secondary monitors. Only down fall to CRT is that the connector seems to be a huge holdback for this technology (besides the size, weight, and power consumption). Such nice screens... I don't want to give mine up.
[QUOTE=Error_404;27640626]It's almost the same, except for a slightly lower brightness I think, and a few reviews said it had a little more backlight bleed than the 2311[/QUOTE] You should never have it on 100% brightness anyways (my u2311h is set to 35%) and backlight bleed is a minor issue anyways as long as it's only noticeable on a black screen in a dark room.
[QUOTE=garrynohome;27642962]I thought TN panels weren't capable of true black.[/QUOTE] If it's completely true black, then wouldn't the contrast ratio be infinite?
[QUOTE=Richard Simmons;27646604] Yeah, only? I got two 21" Trinitrons on my desk, both powered on. This is VERY practical for primary and secondary monitors. Only down fall to CRT is that the connector seems to be a huge holdback for this technology (besides the size, weight, and power consumption). Such nice screens... I don't want to give mine up.[/QUOTE] Didn't say it was a bad monitor, in fact quite the opposite. I would never use an LCD for the things I do on my CRT unless the technology improves dramatically (would kill for a panel with 120hz, IPS colours and TN-like response). Thankfully I have a bunch of spare small CRTs for when this one fails (though 11 years since the reported manufacture date and with no sign of any degradation whatsoever that could be a long way off). Only problem is the size and resolution, I would absolutely love a 21" or so trinitron to replace my primary LCD.
I can honestly say I am glad to be rid of CRT. My monitor had 100hz at the resolution I used to use it at back in 2004, but even at that it made my eyes tired after a day of use. I don't get any kind of tiring of the eyes when I use my LED monitor or LCD monitors. Not just that, but my monitor doesn't have a reflective screen, why do companies still make glossy screens? That's so fucking stupid. No glare ftw. IMO the clarity on my monitor is better than any CRT I have seen anyway, and it doesn't make my eyes feel like shit.
[QUOTE=Darkimmortal;27650725]Didn't say it was a bad monitor, in fact quite the opposite. I would never use an LCD for the things I do on my CRT unless the technology improves dramatically (would kill for a panel with 120hz, IPS colours and TN-like response). Thankfully I have a bunch of spare small CRTs for when this one fails (though 11 years since the reported manufacture date and with no sign of any degradation whatsoever that could be a long way off). Only problem is the size and resolution, I would absolutely love a 21" or so trinitron to replace my primary LCD.[/QUOTE] Im surprised your trinitron hasn't crapped out in 11years. My 21"s I repaired many times. had to repair these items atleast once: cathode gun PCB, for controlling the colors. Anode/flyback High voltage board low voltage board, the computer that regulates the picture quality brightness fix (both) Lcds are getting to the level of crts. Perhaps one day, I can retire my 12year old monitor setup. but 4096x1536 at 75Hz, its so nice :)
[QUOTE=Richard Simmons;27646604]A boatload of issues? Besides them being the best tube out there, its made by sony. These things are infamous for blowing out.[/QUOTE] I'm not seeing any evidence of this. [editline]25th January 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Jallen;27652334]I can honestly say I am glad to be rid of CRT. My monitor had 100hz at the resolution I used to use it at back in 2004, but even at that it made my eyes tired after a day of use. I don't get any kind of tiring of the eyes when I use my LED monitor or LCD monitors. Not just that, but my monitor doesn't have a reflective screen, why do companies still make glossy screens? That's so fucking stupid. No glare ftw. IMO the clarity on my monitor is better than any CRT I have seen anyway, and it doesn't make my eyes feel like shit.[/QUOTE] You must have some fucking amazing eyes if 100 Hz bothers you. LED isn't a type of panel, it's still an LCD monitor. LEDs are used for backlighting. Glossy screens make colors look more vibrant at the cost of accuracy and as you mentioned, glare. [editline]25th January 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Jallen;27652334]IMO the clarity on my monitor is better than any CRT I have seen anyway, and it doesn't make my eyes feel like shit.[/QUOTE] No.
[QUOTE=Odellus;27654538]I'm not seeing any evidence of this. [/QUOTE] I'm not sure if you ever had one, or still use one, or even had the privledge of working on one. But they are infamous for problems. Capacitors dying when they're young, the infamous brightness bug. Those are some of the big ones. Then I got the general components dying maybe on avg of one part of failing every 3 years. I had my 21"s for nearly 12 years, and they still work.. they're great monitors, but rittled with little problems. I am thankful that Sony used through-point soldering.
What model do you have? The OEM trinitrons seem to have less problems from my experience. The Dell and HP P1130 are better then the G520 they are based on. The Mitsubishi Diamondtrons are also very nice internally, quite a few solid-state capacitors. Haven't opened up my P1130, but its from 2000 and its still kicking ass without repairs.
I think I will go home a buy the U2311H. Checked a few 'gaming oriented' forums just to see what they might be saying about it and only found good things about this monitor and gaming. Apparently ghosting isn't any visibly worse than fast TN panels in most games despite its "slow" 8ms response time. The few posts that said it wasn't were going purely by the numbers instead of personal experience. Now to figure out where to buy it from. My favorite online store, Newegg, doesn't carry dell products (or this specific monitor at least) and all the retail stores near where i live only carry dell laptops. Dell sells it for about $320+, while i can find some 'deals' (about $284) with Amazon's merchants.
[QUOTE=Zah;27655458]I think I will go home a buy the U2311H. Checked a few 'gaming oriented' forums just to see what they might be saying about it and only found good things about this monitor and gaming. Apparently ghosting isn't any visibly worse than fast TN panels in most games despite its "slow" 8ms response time. The few posts that said it wasn't were going purely by the numbers instead of personal experience. Now to figure out where to buy it from. My favorite online store, Newegg, doesn't carry dell products (or this specific monitor at least) and all the retail stores near where i live only carry dell laptops. Dell sells it for about $320+, while i can find some 'deals' (about $284) with Amazon's merchants.[/QUOTE] The U2211H was $199 a few days ago, awesome deal for IPS.
[QUOTE=4RT1LL3RY;27655775]The U2211H was $199 a few days ago, awesome deal for IPS.[/QUOTE] It was? Damn. Where was that? I don't see any prices lower than $270. Durr. You speak of the 22".
[QUOTE=thf;27649285]If it's completely true black, then wouldn't the contrast ratio be infinite?[/QUOTE] That's correct. Though companies like samsung with the super AMOLED screens always use an actual ratio. Granted they use a very high one.
[QUOTE=Zah;27630417]I dont see any afterimages on my current monitor (maybe on a black background). but here on my work laptop, i can nearly create a complete circle of arrows with a bright facepunch background.[/QUOTE] I take that back. I can make mouse circles on my crt here. [editline]25th January 2011[/editline] Well I have myself a new monitor ordered! Hope it arrives in one piece.
[QUOTE=Zah;27660440]I take that back. I can make mouse circles on my crt here. [editline]25th January 2011[/editline] Well I have myself a new monitor ordered! Hope it arrives in one piece.[/QUOTE] What did you decide on?
[QUOTE=Zah;27594808]CRTs actually turn off and on during their refresh cycles causing a noticeable flickering at slower rates. Lcds don't do this, so i really cannot tell the difference between a 120Hz crt and a 60Hz lcd.[/QUOTE] CRTs do not turn off when they reach the bottom of their draw cycle. The reason they flicker is because their draw cycle is different from LCD screens. Basically a CRT draws the screen like this: [img]http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/8339/crtep.jpg[/img] The cathode ray is focused by an electromagnetic coil and draws scanlines from left to right. When the scanline reaches the end of the line, it's moved rapidly diagonally to the next line and draws a new scanline. This continues to the bottom of the tube, and when the end of the last line is drawn, the beam is rapidly moved back to the top left of the screen. You can see the draw cycle happening in several ways. One of the most common ways is to look at a CRT being viewed by a video camera (look at old news room footage from the 90's). If the video camera has a refresh rate faster than the CRT, you'll see a big black bar rolling down the screen where nothing is visible, that's the end and start of the drawing cycle. The image should fade sort of diagonally since the lag in the phosphors being refreshed increases the longer they haven't been hit. Another way is some failing CRTs will show the refresh pattern at the end of their life (many viewsonics do this.) Or lastly by hacking the video controller drivers to do some absurdly low refresh rate where you can see the scanlines being drawn. Flickering happens at low refresh rates because the phosphors start to fade quicker than the beam can strike them to make them bright again. LCDs don't have this problem because all pixels stay lit all the time. Most LCDs also draw an entire line at a time (as opposed to a CRT that draws a pixel at a time) which has its benefits and drawbacks at the same time.
[QUOTE=bohb;27664796]CRTs do not turn off when they reach the bottom of their draw cycle. The reason they flicker is because their draw cycle is different from LCD screens. Basically a CRT draws the screen like this: [img_thumb]http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/8339/crtep.jpg[/img_thumb] The cathode ray is focused by an electromagnetic coil and draws scanlines from left to right. When the scanline reaches the end of the line, it's moved rapidly diagonally to the next line and draws a new scanline. This continues to the bottom of the tube, and when the end of the last line is drawn, the beam is rapidly moved back to the top left of the screen. You can see the draw cycle happening in several ways. One of the most common ways is to look at a CRT being viewed by a video camera (look at old news room footage from the 90's). If the video camera has a refresh rate faster than the CRT, you'll see a big black bar rolling down the screen where nothing is visible, that's the end and start of the drawing cycle. The image should fade sort of diagonally since the lag in the phosphors being refreshed increases the longer they haven't been hit. Another way is some failing CRTs will show the refresh pattern at the end of their life (many viewsonics do this.) Or lastly by hacking the video controller drivers to do some absurdly low refresh rate where you can see the scanlines being drawn. Flickering happens at low refresh rates because the phosphors start to fade quicker than the beam can strike them to make them bright again. LCDs don't have this problem because all pixels stay lit all the time. Most LCDs also draw an entire line at a time (as opposed to a CRT that draws a pixel at a time) which has its benefits and drawbacks at the same time.[/QUOTE] I wasn't sure what to rate you. But thank you for explaining that. You done it far better than what I could've done.
[QUOTE=Johnbooth;27661200]What did you decide on?[/QUOTE] The Dell U2311H [editline]26th January 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=bohb;27664796]CRTs do not turn off when they reach the bottom of their draw cycle. The reason they flicker is because their draw cycle is different from LCD screens. Basically a CRT draws the screen like this: [img_thumb]http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/8339/crtep.jpg[/img_thumb][/QUOTE] I must of brainfarted. I use to study how CRTs work. Though my brain keeps insisting that there is some sort of screen technology that turns on and off between frames and I don't think it's film projectors.
[QUOTE=Zah;27668755]The Dell U2311H [editline]26th January 2011[/editline] I must of brainfarted. I use to study how CRTs work. Though my brain keeps insisting that there is some sort of screen technology that turns on and off between frames and I don't think it's film projectors.[/QUOTE] All film projectors have a mechanical shutter (that either rotates or moves linearly, but that's less common.) The shutter interrupts the intense light from the xenon bulb / carbon arc between frames so that it gives the illusion of one frame appearing after another when the film is pulled in front of the light source. If you remove the shutter, all that you'll see on the screen is one constant blur of moving pictures. The shutter rotates twice or three times as fast as the film (24 fps -> 48 Hz, 72 Hz.) I've been a projectionist for 3 years, I know these things :downs: If I ever came across a projector that turned off the xenon bulb 48 times a second, I'd be like "does not want". Our bulbs are 4 kW (25V, 150A) and the power supplies weigh 125 lbs and are the size of mid tower PC cases. When those things fail, they're usually spectacular failures (I've had one explode on me before sending bits of molten metal showering out the side of the machine,) Most of the time it's either smoke or fire though. Bulbs occasionally explode from imperfections in the glass, but most of the time when they fail, they either won't strike, be dark or do what I call "dancing" where the metal cathode will be eaten away to a semi-flat surface and the electrical arc will start to move around to different points on the surface of the cathode since they're all similar distance to the anode. This makes an annoying variation of light on the screen that moves around constantly and people usually complain about it.
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