Forum Discussion - v. Please Don't Call Hezzy A Cunt
999 replies, posted
Alright let's try this again.
Ground Rules and Housekeeping
Be civil and constructive in your feedback. It's an internet forum, let's all at least try to get along. If you feel yourself getting angry, take a few seconds to breath and think about what you're writing; will it achieve what you desire? Are you coming across as a dickbag? Will anybody take you seriously if you're being a dickbag?
I will be updating this post with commonly asked questions. I have added some to begin with based on recent topics
If I don't know the answer to your question, or can't tell you straight away (probably most things) I will rate you with "Good Idea"
I'm not available 24/7. Don't expect instant answers. I am off my other job from 9th - 11th July so can give more in depth answers. I will keep updating my availability.
If something becomes a recurrent theme, I will ask you to create a separate thread for discussion of it in depth. Megathreads are really shit for discussions on multiple topics at once.
I can be reached through Discord most of the time.
Why does garry insist on the new forum structure
For those who don't know, the new forum structure is that there should no longer be any megathreads; meaning no gigantic threads of sprawling posts. A single thread will follow a single "thread" of discussion. Threads fall down when multiple topics are trying to be discussed at once.
Here's an official design document diagram that is totally professional and didn't happen in MS Paint;
Take the last thread for example. 14 pages of a variety of topics being discussed, but mainly focusing entirely on one issue. Other topics are drowned out by a single topic, which means that content is potentially lost.
Luckily, threads were created for these specific issues which went on to thrive. People can drop in and discuss these freely whilst the thread remains on focus rather than being a broad category.
There is also a feeling that to a certain extent, people can't continue discussions from 10 pages ago, like if they had been away from the thread for a while. There may also be topics they've missed that they would have been interested in.
Rather than bury this into a single thread, we want it to be spread out. Threads don't have to be huge, I think we all have an expectation that threads should be hundreds of posts long to be successful. Not at all.
That being said, there are clearly examples of where this doesn't work. This forum is still a work in progress and we need helpful feedback.
This thread is quite a useful post and can be used for further discussion of this issue
I am worried about the decline in numbers on Facepunch
This stems from various issues; some discussed below but I wanted to provide a broad answer about our user base. A lot of people think it is declining.
That's wrong. In fact, it is increasing.
Here's a video I took in October;
As you can see, there was a massive spike when Garry's Mod was released. The forums begin to decline and dwindle until we're fluctuating between 6500 - 6800 active users per day.
I'm able to manually find out how many people are active within the last 24 hours using the "user list" tool that Moderators have. There are 71 pages until the last person appears active 24 hours ago, with 100 users per page that means we have around 7100 active users.
I don't like the new rules
This policy was already in effect from the very beginning;
Apart from the thread titles part (I didn't realise we couldn't rename threads, we still can't) it still all holds true. All the hysteria brought about by the new rule page is pretty unjustified.
All it means is that we're not banning for dumb stuff like "REEEEE", posting pictures of "that cat" and banning people for "advocating murder" like some kind of shitty mumsnet-esque forum. Please don't post badage boys though. They're not back in town. Football is coming home. You'll Figure It Out.
I asked in an unrelated thread for people to point out where post quality had fallen and nobody could really give me any decent examples. If internet cretins begin to take over we'll do what we've always done and change things up. You might even see a return of Autobans, except now we actually have the capital to provide actual speedboats.
I feel there is a disconnect between "management" and the community
I've been a bit grumpy as of late, long shifts and early starts. I admit I could've handled things better in the past thread but some of you were acting like proper pricks. I just closed it to let everyone have a little cool down. That's all I could really manage squinting at my mobile screen, jabbing at tiny buttons with my fat fingers.
I keep saying that people can message me on Discord if they want. I've only had one person take me up on that offer so far and it was a pretty productive chat. I know that some of you won't want that, because how are you supposed to get your diamonds if you can't call me out on my shit?
That being said, I feel I need to manage your expectations a bit. A lot of you are frustrated that we are not listening to you. I have repeatedly passed on community sentiment to garry on his changes, the feedback in particular proved useful and as a result garry was able to design a filtering system to satisfy the unwieldy child forum changes.
These are garry's forums and he has repeatedly stated which direction they're going in.
Feedbot is a pile of fucking garbage
It's as good as we make it. At the moment it's only posting PC Gamer. I am pretty sure we removed it from NewsNode in the last forums because it was fucking horrendous.
I think it's a matter of changing the content provider, or cultivating a channel of content ourselves. I don't have access to anything to change it at the moment, so we're kind of stuck with it.
With forums, good threads rise and shit threads sink. I can see a lot of the PC Gamer stuff has sank.
We're discussing this over here in this thread
how long until this thread gets locked like all the others?
I don't think you're a cunt Hezzy.
It allows us to permanently ban somebody and delete all their posts with one button, for spambots or snide ex-moderators who have become unpersons
Where is POPULAR THREADS?
I spoke to garry last week and we were brainstorming ideas for a new front page, or like a hub where all the convenient things are kept.
In the mean time, you can kinda use the stats page under "popular pages" as a ghetto solution;
Will thread ratings ever be shown on the forum thread list page again? Those were really useful to identify standout content on a lot of subforums, specially the videos forum. I know there's a userscript replacement solution, but I don't want to bombard FP's servers with 50 extra requests every time I click a subforum.
Also much <3
but hezzy how can I complain now that you've done something productive?
You and Garry keep saying this but it is objectively not the case. If a bot spams 10-20 (or more) threads in a day it's pushing down everything else and making it harder to find threads. Feedbot threads are competing with users created threads and are being created at a much faster rate. The issue is that there is only a limited amount of screen space which can be used, and the more that is used by bot posts no one cares about the less other threads have a chance at surviving.
I've been playing quite a bit of Wizard of Legend recently since it was brought up in a thread in the video section. If I made a thread on it I need it to catch people's attention both before threads for already known and popular games are posted in AND hope that feedbot doesn't decide to shit out 10 PCGamer threads all at one, since it seems to post them in batches.
We really need better organisation if we want discussion to thrive, because just using active users or new threads created is a terrible metric for signs of discussion. A thread that gets one post isn't contributing as much to the community as one that gets 100, and if it's made by a bot it has a high chance of being irrelevant. Of course creating a filter so the bot doesn't post threads for gaming peripherals would be a pain in the neck, so a feedbot sections would be an easier solution.
If you want good threads to thrive and shit threads to die you need to create the environment where that can happen. The problem isn't that feedbot exists, or that it posts a *hyperbolic number here* threads every day. It's that bot threads are lumped in with user threads, which doesn't work.
Also, for communication it's the radio silence which bothers people the most. If you just gave a "Hey, no real updates. Progress is slow/Garry was working on something else/the servers are literally on fire." once a week you'd get people being slightly less shitty. Slightly.
Can you clarify in specific terms what you feel was mishandled over the past few days?
Was it the bit where certain users with initially clearly articulated complaints were bluntly dismissed until their tempers ran high and they snapped at you or other moderators? Are you willing to reverse their bans in a show of good will?
I unironically love facepunch and all of you. Right now there's nothing super wrong with the site in my opinion. Just some medium sized things.
I miss seeing what people rate you in your notifications, it was the best feature of newpunch.
I don't like "cute" and "artistic" for ratings, but maybe that's just a personal thing.
and finally I'm still not sure what garry wants will work the way he wants it to. I already 100% agree with someone like videos, there shouldn't be one megathread for Mandalore or AVGN etc (on somethingawful that is absolute garbage), each new video should get its own thread. I'm not as sure with games though. How specific should we make threads? If I'm stuck on a quest in skyrim should I make a thread about it?
All in all I can deal with 99% of changes.
getting rid of megathreads will murder discussion of every game that isn't some hot new AAA trash or Esports nonsense. everything less popular will get buried and ignored if we have to shit out a new thread for every single topic a game has
FUCK YOU HEZZY NOW ITS WRONG TO CALL YOU OUT AH SHOOT NOW I FEEL BAD.
This is a cool idea that I'd like to see implemented. I loved the feedback we got at the start of the forum with ratings showing in the notifications bar. I hope we can display ratings somewhere as well, to give users a sense of pride and accomplishment.
That's fair enough. We're looking at ways to make Feedbot better. As previously alluded to there'll be a place where you can have a look at all your subscribed threads, etc. Hopefully this will help organise and improve people's "workflows" or whatever the wanky business term is.
Oh look a loaded question
I closed the threads without saying much, although I did discuss this with you and several others in Discord.
Stop with this hyperbolic bullshit. It was one person. Skoinks had agency, he chose to write what he did. If people have no control over what they post they should just fuck off tbh
Let's not pretend Skoinks is the only one. In the past few days there was also mezzokoko and Trekintosh. Yes mezzokoko said something rude and yes Trekintosh made many silly posts. They're still contributing users (well maybe not mezz) who want to see this place improve. The shit they were banned for was the result of obviously mounting frustration in response to your behavior, it didn't exactly come out of the blue.
Before them half the automotive section got banned for protesting the new structure by making fun of your car in our own designated sandbox, lmao.
If you want to have a situation where you can freely insult, deride, and hassle users and then ban them when their frustration exceeds their interest in sticking around, quit wasting our time and say so. If that really isn't what you want, why don't you take a step back, accept that you mishandled the situation, and right some wrongs to prove everything up there isn't just hot air?
You're right - they had agency. They weren't entirely in the right. But you also had agency. You could've not baited them and stoked the flames, but you did. Which was wrong. Now we're down at least five long term contributing members. That's not a net benefit.
I was really afraid you were going to give up on our whiny asses, thanks for not doing that (yet)
That's good. I just wanted to ask if you'd seen my thread on bringing back the ticker and adding it to the main page. It'd be a good way of letting people see what's happening at the moment without needing them to check every section. If the front page is getting a redesign I think this could be a good addition.
PCG had four fucking threads for the Tennocon vid
get fucking rid of it.
Seriously, if you need to get your news here, make a damn dedicated venue for it so people that give a shit can opt in and everyone else can read a fucking thread for a change
Related to this, if it was algorithmic based on recent creation and popularity, would it be implemented for subforum threads appearing in the parent forum list?
It's good having some threads so the interesting ones are more visible, but as with News Node or META it can get a bit spammy.
None of those users showed they wanted to see this place improve, if they said that, to me their actions speak louder, and I find it increasingly worrisome people are actually writing up apologias for their shit behaviour. Trekintosh decided to throw a shitfit, mezzo decided to be a douche until the last post, and skoinks wasn't even trying to be reasonable. None of these are model posters, stop trying to make it seem that they are and defending them as such - that's blatant revisionism.
They could've be reasonable and not act like giant assholes, but they did. Which was wrong.
Sorry for twisting your words, but you have to admit there's no argument here to consider dude. They knew what they were doing and they willingly did it - they are exclusively the ones to blame. For example, you didn't spaz out yourself even though you agree with most of their arguments from what I've read - should I blame hezzy for keeping you stockholm syndrome'd?
I wholeheartedly welcome FP's next idiot cull.
I have a much deeper well of patience to draw from, that doesn't mean I'm not equally frustrated and concerned. Trekintosh made a very well worded thread (apparent disconnect) and skoinks had been offering quite constructive posts which continually went ignored until he eventually got pissed and snapped. As for mezzo I went into my position on him in discord but suffice to say I don't like mezzo much and especially did not like him as a moderator but I still think his ban was out of line as his comment was quite clearly intended to be over the top.
Trek fucking loved this forum I can tell you that. skoinks I don't know very well but I can guarantee you Trek loved this place and actually having harm come to it was nowhere in his priority list. He was frustrated - rightfully - and acted out - wrongfully. But that's no reason to give him the big boot.
Crowdsource what articles actually get posted
Have some sort of system where all RSS feed articles appear in a special place on the front page, and users can vote on which articles are made into new threads (and which subforum they should go into)
If the amount of votes reaches some sort of threshold, a new thread is made featuring that particular article
Award coins or some shit if you vote on an article that is then made into a thread to incentivize participation, and automatically subscribe those who voted to it
If we're going to approach this situation in a more civil nature is there a chance for a lot of those perma's to be reduced or those users just unbanned in general.
A common sentiment going around is that those unruly shitposters were acting out in concern for the forum and I'm very inclined to believe that. If you're truly going to relax the idea of getting banned in general, lets not start things off by banning people for simply being invested in the forum.
One day in the future, when Newpunch is hopefully on it's feet and all these growing pains are behind it, users acting in similar ways to recently permabanned users hopefully wouldn't be permanently kicked off the forum. That's the idea, isn't it?
Just want to remind people that Mezz was banned because he said the only reason why he sticks around is to "piss on the corpse" of our community. This isn't hyperbole at all, it's literally exactly what he said. I don't see how you can defend this.
Trek was banned by garry for spamming a bunch.
People in AA were banned by garry for spamming a bunch. I didn't realise they were making fun of my car, so that's news to me.
What do all these people have in common? They are people who cannot behave themselves on an internet forum. An Internet Forum.
How am I supposed to fix this? By unbanning a bunch of your mates who happen to be terrible people? Don't be ridiculous.
I had a chat with Crapt about this and he understands what is expected of him in the future
This is actually really cool, can you post this in the relevant thread (link is in OP)?
I realize that's what he said because I was there when he said it. I'm saying mezz wrote that to be as over the top and ridiculous as possible. You cannot seriously read it with a straight face and think "yes this guy is being absolutely serious."
You are seriously misrepresenting my post which is actually quite comical coming right off the heels of you pretending to give a damn about what I had to say in the discord where you actually asked "why do people think my civility is a facade"
I just want to say that I don't actually have a horse in this race - none of the perma'd users are mates of mine, so I hope that emphasizes how unbiased my opinion is here.
Mezz's ban is justified, I'm not going to dispute that. But I can't help but feel that the permabans given to the other users are reminiscent of how bans used to be handled on Oldpunch, and Garry is trying to deliberately curate a different culture than that. I feel that not permabanning users who are being overly reactionary to these new changes would be a very appreciated expression of good will to a community that feels lacking in that regard right now.
As I said in my previous post, as far as I understand it, the community Garry is looking to grow would theoretically allow more leniency to errors and mistakes like that, without permanently removing the user from the forum. The context of this specific situation definitely called for some sort of ban or action to be taken, but we're losing more and more long standing members of this community that are actually personally invested in the growth of this forum.
Are you "Pirate" on Discord? It's confusing when people have different names. As you've mentioned we've already discussed this. What I said on Discord is valid; what I said on the forums is also valid. What exactly did you want me to do other than unban a bunch of people who had misbehaved?
That's what I want you to do. They misbehaved. That doesn't mean they have to go away forever.
This makes sense, I hadn't thought about it from that angle before.
Although there is a line that has to be drawn in the sand; I can appreciate when people get heated or upset, they post in anger and perhaps exaggerate things. At the same time if somebody is throwing such a tantrum that they have to be removed from the forum, then the user leaves us with no further course of action.
I'll happy chat with you over Discord sometime tomorrow (I'm planning to go to bed now) and I will reconsider my positions on the bans I made
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