• Illegal gamers costing 'billions'
    181 replies, posted
[QUOTE=combine487;27624671]everything you said you just pulled out of your ass. can you provide any hard evidence to support those claims. [/QUOTE] As much as you'd like to see that hard evidence, as much would I like to see your hard evidence for the opposite. The thing is, there is no such thing as hard evidence. If anyone think they can explain how much revenue that was lost or gained due to piracy, they're wrong. They can't even do an estimate.
[quote=combine487;27624671]why is that a bad thing? you know NOT buying games is just as important as buying games when you want to influence the games that are being developed. seriously why do people not understand this[/quote] This has got to be the dumbest statement in this thread yet. Do you seriously think the game devs care if I like the game or not? If I have to buy the game first to try it, I will be giving my money to the game developers regardless of whether I liked the game or not. By your logic, they will take the sale as a "I like this"-signal and make another shitty game. In other words: [b]Telling the developers I don't like their game by the statement of not buying it won't work if I have to buy the game first to try it.[/b]
This thread is a good example of something Tycho of Penny Arcade said [url=http://www.penny-arcade.com/2009/10/26/]a little while back:[/url] [quote]It is not a mischaracterization to say that conversations with the hardcore PC community about software theft follow these tenets: - There is no piracy. - To the extent that piracy exists, which it doesn't, it's your fault. - If you try to protect your game, we'll steal it as a matter of principle. It's like, who wouldn't want to bend over backward in their service? You need to know it, because nobody else is going to tell you: you guys sound like Goddamned subway vagrants. [i]Of course[/i] when you speak exclusively to each other, it all sounds so reasonable.[/quote]
If devs don't want their shit pirated maybe they should look into making games worthy of buying.
[QUOTE=FunkyHippo;27631260]If devs don't want their shit pirated maybe they should look into making games worthy of buying.[/QUOTE] But apparently the games are good enough to be worthy playing?
[QUOTE=DesolateGrun;27565419]"Cry some more" If the devs don't use a DRM, people will pirate it. [b]If they do the players get pissed and don't play.[/b] So whats worse people buying and pirating, or no one playing.[/QUOTE] Not true. DRM is fine by most people, it's just when they ruin the game for non-pirates that it starts to bother. Take, for example, Spore's limited install system. Pirate or not, you couldn't install more than 3 times, later 5. Ubisoft also made a system where you have to be connected to the Internet at all times or you can't play. Both of those DRM systems made it really frustrating for people who bought the games legitimately. However, many other forms of copy protection just hang out in the back, making sure you're not doing any swashbucklin', and rarely even do anything.
[QUOTE=clanratc;27631811]But apparently the games are good enough to be worthy playing?[/QUOTE] If it's free, low quality is tolerable.
[QUOTE=dgg;27628361]Uh, yeah and that's what piracy can help with. They DON'T buy the games that are pure shit, but they DO buy the games that are fucking awesome. Never before has the statement "pulled out of your own ass" been more correct. Why? Because I'm a living example of everything I just said, as well as many of my friends and people I've talked with online. I'm not speculating, I'm talking about pure facts here, that's what happens. [/QUOTE] As much as I wish I could take your personal experience along with your handful of friends as a microcosm of the entire pirating community, I can't, because that isn't evidence. You are a minority, and I applaud you for doing the right thing, but you simply are not representative of piracy. [URL]http://www.tweakguides.com/Piracy_4.html[/URL] [QUOTE=dgg;27628361] And who says none of those pirates actually bought the game afterwards? That's the retarded part of it, all they can look at is figures (that are in most cases made up from thin air with no bounds in reality.) and then they assume that every download is made by unique users, not the same guy downloading it several times because he deleted it or whatever, nor do they know if the person canceled the download, nor do they know if the person ever installed the game, nor do they know if the person actually bought the game afterwards. And anyone that didn't buy the game wouldn't have bought it in the first place, and the others who would have bought it probably didn't think it was worth the money and waited for a sale instead. [/QUOTE] Do you honestly believe what you are saying? You are going against one of the most basic economic principles of all time, which is that if people can get shit for free, they will. Why do you think piracy is exempt from this rule? There are other of ways to determine how many people that pirate the game then go on to purchase a legitimate copy. Let's look at a pretty ingenious example, customer service. Take the case of the SiN Emergence series [URL]http://www.shacknews.com/featuredarticle.x?id=129[/URL]. Piracy rates are related to popularity of the game that's it. If people really are pirating games because of DRM, low quality and high prices then why on earth would a game like World of Goo (no DRM, $20 price and average score of 90-95%) have a piracy rate of 90%! Even Crysis which has a metacritic ranging from 77% to 91%, had no DRM at all, was being sold at a standard price and even had a demo. This is the 4th most pirated game of all time. [QUOTE=dgg;27628361] You obtain it because you want to see if it is worth it or not. You can't know if Crysis is worth it or not without trying it now can you? You're making a question that can only be answered after trying it, which then makes you statement utterly retarded because you're asking them why they obtain it before they've tried it since it's worthless, which they can't know because they haven't tried it yet.[/QUOTE] There are so many other legitimate ways you can judge the quality of a game. Since when did piracy suddenly become the only way to judge a games quality? If you are a keen gamer then judging a game from its trailer shouldn't be that difficult, we can all tell the next call of duty is going to suck balls from the first gameplay trailer. There are countless review sites to help you formulate an opinion. There are demos if you're lucky (and there should be more) or you could even just watch some gameplay on youtube. If anything, pirating a game should be your last option, because pirated copies tend to have more bugs (sometimes deliberately put there). As shown by the disproportionate amount of customer service complaints that people make with their illegitimate copies.
[QUOTE=johan_sm;27625745]inb4 consoles have pirates too. That's not the point, the point is that because they couldn't profit from one platform they move to multiplatform. But I don't really blame people for pirating crysis, it was hardly worth the money.[/QUOTE] Ahem [B]IF IT WAS HARDLY WORTH THE MONEY, DON'T PLAY IT.[/B]
[QUOTE=combine487;27637010]As much as I wish I could take your personal experience along with your handful of friends as a microcosm of the entire pirating community, I can't, because that isn't evidence. You are a minority, and I applaud you for doing the right thing, but you simply are not representative of piracy. [URL]http://www.tweakguides.com/Piracy_4.html[/URL][/QUOTE] Sorry, but yes I am. Statistics with 2000 participants is deemed fully valid to judge the whole world with. So is statistics made up from thin air about what products people have bought. Here and on other forums you have thousands upon thousands of people doing this very same thing. Pirating games in order to try them because there is no demo available and then later buying it because it was good. Looking at numbers for how many times a game has been downloaded is retarded even though it's the only way to get any numbers. But they never take away a chunk of those numbers to get a more correct representation of who actually downloaded it, played it and never bought it. And it still doesn't fucking matter because they would never have bought your "shitty" game anyways and you didn't lose a dime even though they did something they shouldn't have. [QUOTE=combine487;27637010]Do you honestly believe what you are saying? You are going against one of the most basic economic principles of all time, which is that if people can get shit for free, they will. Why do you think piracy is exempt from this rule? There are other of ways to determine how many people that pirate the game then go on to purchase a legitimate copy. Let's look at a pretty ingenious example, customer service. Take the case of the SiN Emergence series [URL]http://www.shacknews.com/featuredarticle.x?id=129[/URL]. Piracy rates are related to popularity of the game that's it. If people really are pirating games because of DRM, low quality and high prices then why on earth would a game like World of Goo (no DRM, $20 price and average score of 90-95%) have a piracy rate of 90%! Even Crysis which has a metacritic ranging from 77% to 91%, had no DRM at all, was being sold at a standard price and even had a demo. This is the 4th most pirated game of all time.[/QUOTE] You're really not getting what I'm saying. I never said that EVERYONE bought the game after pirating it. I've said MANY people. And those who don't wouldn't no matter what. I haven't pulled the DRM card, so that's an invalid argument against me. Nor have I ever said the popularity of a game doesn't cause piracy. Spore and Crysis got downloaded the fuck out of because of all the hype. Lots of 12-14 year olds with no income whatsoever downloaded the shit out of it because it was supposed to be so great and they wanted it right away. That brings me to a new point actually. Don't misinterpret this too though. Lots, and I mean lots of pirates are teenagers, puberty kids shut into their homes never having worked and hardly getting any income in any way from their parents. These people stand for a lot of the piracy, and that's people that couldn't bring you any income at all, thus again, they're doing something wrong, but you're not losing money and it's "ok", and hopefully in 5-7 years they'll buy your game when it's on some cheap "Good Old Games" website that sells old classics for cheap cash. [QUOTE=combine487;27637010]There are so many other legitimate ways you can judge the quality of a game. Since when did piracy suddenly become the only way to judge a games quality? If you are a keen gamer then judging a game from its trailer shouldn't be that difficult, we can all tell the next call of duty is going to suck balls from the first gameplay trailer. There are countless review sites to help you formulate an opinion. There are demos if you're lucky (and there should be more) or you could even just watch some gameplay on youtube. If anything, pirating a game should be your last option, because pirated copies tend to have more bugs (sometimes deliberately put there). As shown by the disproportionate amount of customer service complaints that people make with their illegitimate copies.[/QUOTE] Trailer doesn't give any form of impression at all. All it can possibly show you correctly is how the game looks (which is still quite missleading because of post-processing effects) and what kind of moves you have in the game. How the game is is impossible to tell from a video, you can only know from actually playing it. An example would be Ludo (the cardboard game), how fucking boring to watch unless they're quarreling with eachother, but oh so fun to play. Reviews tell you a bit, but you still don't really get much of an understanding of the game other than "it's supposedly good/bad" and "It features this and that". Reviews are also so subjective or objective that they don't give you any guidance to how the game actually is unless you've found out you share the same taste with the reviewer, given that he/she is subjective in his/her reviews. Demos is the one and only way, something they for whatever reason seems to have drifted away from. Probably because of people ripping the content of demos and putting them in Gmod or whatever. :v:
[QUOTE=dgg;27637644]That brings me to a new point actually. Don't misinterpret this too though. Lots, and I mean lots of pirates are teenagers, puberty kids shut into their homes never having worked and hardly getting any income in any way from their parents. These people stand for a lot of the piracy, and that's people that couldn't bring you any income at all, thus again, they're doing something wrong, but you're not losing money and it's "ok", and hopefully in 5-7 years they'll buy your game when it's on some cheap "Good Old Games" website that sells old classics for cheap cash.[/QUOTE] This is very likely true.
[QUOTE=combine487;27637010] There are so many other legitimate ways you can judge the quality of a game. Since when did piracy suddenly become the only way to judge a games quality? If you are a keen gamer then judging a game from its trailer shouldn't be that difficult, we can all tell the next call of duty is going to suck balls from the first gameplay trailer. There are countless review sites to help you formulate an opinion. There are demos if you're lucky (and there should be more) or you could even just watch some gameplay on youtube. If anything, pirating a game should be your last option, because pirated copies tend to have more bugs (sometimes deliberately put there). As shown by the disproportionate amount of customer service complaints that people make with their illegitimate copies.[/QUOTE] You can repeat it to convince yourself as much as you want, but trailers and gameplay videos can never properly showcase the experience of interactive media. For demoing a movie, snippets of video is sufficient because watching those is like having a small part of the full experience. However video games add another dimension to the equation, interaction, and thus a demo equivalent of a movie trailer is not by comparison a small part of the full experience. Reviews can give you a hint of the general quality of the game but reading them can never tell you anything about (what might be) your own experience with the game since the impression a game leaves with you is very personal. And then we haven't even gotten started with how vastly reviews of a game may differ from one to another depending on the reviewers, who are individuals with their own taste themselves. Reviews can only really tell you what the reviewer thought about the game, and if you read several you can formulate an idea of what the game might be like, but you still haven't had a taste of the experience. Apparently gamers today are expected to "gamble" with their money(for lack of better word); to view cash spent on games as purely disposable and just plain accept disservice or disappointment from time to time ("Well this game landed below expectations, oh well it was just 50$, no big deal"). This is complete bullshit. [editline]25th January 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Cuel;27637898]This is very likely true.[/QUOTE] Not to mention that underage people usually pirate games their moms won't buy for them because of age ratings.
[QUOTE=Im Crimson;27638309]Not to mention that underage people usually pirate games their moms won't buy for them because of age ratings.[/QUOTE] :frown: Buy GTA2 with your own money - have you mom take it back to the store and change it with "The Longest Journey" because you're too young for it. and Play Timesplitters 2 - Have your mom forcibly make your dad trade it with someone else replacing it with Rayman 3D. [editline]25th January 2011[/editline] I didn't pirate neither though. I just kept playing GTA (1) over at my friends place, and kept on crying inside of me at the loss of the awesomeness of Timesplitters 2.
and not a menshon about pirate bay xD
There are quite a few times where I have "pirated" a game because a CD broke, but I still had a valid CD key, so I don't believe most of these download number statistics, because it is 100% IMPOSSIBLE to prove how many of them are ACTUALLY pirates. In the case of Crysis, I know at least 50 people in my area had to download an ISO and use their own key because the BRAND NEW retail disc was unable to be read because it was somehow scratched to hell in the packaging, and they wanted to charge to send a new one.
[QUOTE=DarkWolf2;27561063]Don't take these "results" as fact. They just looked at how many people have downloaded something with X filename and concluded that everyone who downloaded it would have bought it if piracy didn't exist, and now they didn't. Most piracy users would either download it to check out the game to see if they like it, especially if there's a lack of demo or other information about the game and then purchase it or not. Whilst other's wouldn't have bought the game regardless if they could or couldn't have pirated it at that time. There's also the group that plays it then, and later buys it when there's a sale/special/promotion of said game. Yes there's people that just download it and play it without paying, but instead of investigating that as well they just filled 3/4 of the article of a smug pr0 l33t modder which doesn't contribute to the test results at all.[/QUOTE] I love how you say "Don't take these results as facts", and then turn around and claim to somehow know exactly what "most piracy users" do. You don't. Neither does anyone else on this forum.
A pirate is someone who gets games for free not because he didn't want to spend money but because he didn't have any money to give to the industry at all. Very few potential customers are lost due to piracy. [editline]25th January 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=firen00b6;27641131]There are quite a few times where I have "pirated" a game because a CD broke, but I still had a valid CD key, so I don't believe most of these download number statistics, because it is 100% IMPOSSIBLE to prove how many of them are ACTUALLY pirates. In the case of Crysis, I know at least 50 people in my area had to download an ISO and use their own key because the BRAND NEW retail disc was unable to be read because it was somehow scratched to hell in the packaging, and they wanted to charge to send a new one.[/QUOTE] 50 people?!
Truth is, probably about 90% of this forum has pirated something in their lifetime. Not something you can really stop. The gaming industry is booming, and the only way they will combat it is by means of blocking every torrent and p2p site there is. The whole net neutrality deal.. Not saying I want it, or it's a good idea. These companies just need to figure out new ways to combat it. Steam is doing a good job by offering non-DRM games at good costs. It's a touchy and never ending issue.
[QUOTE=matt54;27645509]Truth is, probably about 90% of this forum has pirated something in their lifetime. Not something you can really stop. The gaming industry is booming, and the only way they will combat it is by means of blocking every torrent and p2p site there is. The whole net neutrality deal.. Not saying I want it, or it's a good idea. These companies just need to figure out new ways to combat it. Steam is doing a good job by offering non-DRM games at good costs. It's a touchy and never ending issue.[/QUOTE] You do realize that Steam IS DRM, right? Just sayin'. I have a bunch of games on Steam, and I don't mind DRM. I just don't like all these articles that claim EVERY SINGLE DOWNLOAD is a pirate who would have otherwise bought the game, when in many cases, they really wouldn't. There is also a few cases that aren't technically piracy at all, because they had legitimately purchased the game, and just needed a way to reinstall it after something happened.
It's funny, Dev are more scare about pirate on PC, yet, console is just as worse. Bunch of idiots i have to say for them to think it's 'safe' on console and only make exclusive stuff towards console.
[QUOTE=dgg;27637644] You're really not getting what I'm saying. I never said that EVERYONE bought the game after pirating it. I've said MANY people. And those who don't wouldn't no matter what. [/QUOTE] I understand what you are saying completely. You are saying that the majority of people who pirate games, then go on to purchase the full product. This simply isn't true. If it were true, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Piracy would not be an issue. You still provide no evidence for this position other than saying "Trust me, I KNOW." Basic economic principles will tell you that you are part of a minority. And yes there is a way to measure how many people payed for the full product after downloading. You simply take the total amount of people that downloaded the game and then compare this with total sales over say, one year. It is highly unlikely that the majority of pirates go out an then purchase the game they downloaded. Their downloaded copy is a perfect match to the retail version. There is no quality difference, and therefore paying a price for an identical product they already own is simply not going to happen on a large scale. This is human nature, and basic economics. On another note, if what you are saying is true, then there would not be such a major discrepancy in sales between console and PC. PC still has a very large player base in competition with consoles, and yet their sales are dramatically lower than their console equivalents. If what you are saying is true, this would not be the case. Like I mentioned previously, Call of Duty Black Ops was pirated nearly 4.5 million times. Yet only 6% of its sales came from PC in the UK, compared to around 60% for Xbox. You may argue that the reason for this is that piraters are not satisfied with the games they download and therefore do not wish to pay for the full product. This makes sense, but again isn't true. Quality is not a factor in determining piracy, popularity is. People are not paying for the full product because they have no incentive too. To make my point totally clear, you are a minority. Total downloads is still dramatically higher than total sales on the PC. If what you are saying is true, PC should have a much larger market share, which it doesn't. Rather than making this wall of text even larger by quoting, please read the last paragraph on this page: [URL]http://www.tweakguides.com/Piracy_3.html[/URL]. [QUOTE=dgg;27637644] Trailer doesn't give any form of impression at all. All it can possibly show you correctly is how the game looks (which is still quite missleading because of post-processing effects) and what kind of moves you have in the game. How the game is is impossible to tell from a video, you can only know from actually playing it. Reviews tell you a bit, but you still don't really get much of an understanding of the game other than "it's supposedly good/bad" and "It features this and that". Reviews are also so subjective or objective that they don't give you any guidance to how the game actually is unless you've found out you share the same taste with the reviewer, given that he/she is subjective in his/her reviews. Demos is the one and only way, something they for whatever reason seems to have drifted away from. Probably because of people ripping the content of demos and putting them in Gmod or whatever. :v:[/QUOTE] I still don't think this is a fully formed argument, it seems you are just grasping at straws to justify the act of piracy. I would like to say I agree that more games need demos. Demos are a fantastic way to promote a game and more developers should use them. Can you truly not judge the quality of a game by researching it? Maybe I am a more astute gamer than you, but watching videos, reading reviews and knowing who has made the game should tell you all you need to know. Do you need to download the next Call of Duty to know what it's going to be like? If you don't think game trailers tell you anything about a game then you clearly are not understanding them. I highly doubt you are going to pirate Half Life 2: Episode 3 when it comes out to "make sure it's good enough for a purchase". And yes this is a good example. You are not going to pirate this game because you know the developers and you understand the games they make. If you understand the games industry judging the quality of games should be fairly easy for you. [QUOTE=Nexus_Elite;27681324]It's funny, Dev are more scare about pirate on PC, yet, console is just as worse. Bunch of idiots i have to say for them to think it's 'safe' on console and only make exclusive stuff towards console.[/QUOTE] That statement is entirely false. Console piracy is no where near the magnitude of PC piracy. You just told a complete lie.
[QUOTE=Nexus_Elite;27681324]It's funny, Dev are more scare about pirate on PC, yet, console is just as worse. Bunch of idiots i have to say for them to think it's 'safe' on console and only make exclusive stuff towards console.[/QUOTE] The piracy numbers on consoles are about 3 times as low as the PC. Compare that to how many more console copies of games that are sold and they have every right to play it 'safe'.
This thread is the battle of the walls of text :psyduck:
$60 is a lot for a game? hell most games are up to $100 over here in Australia on release. even on steam, and our dollar is near equal to the american dollar too.
[QUOTE=combine487;27685629]I understand what you are saying completely. You are saying that the majority of people who pirate games, then go on to purchase the full product. This simply isn't true. If it were true, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Piracy would not be an issue. You still provide no evidence for this position other than saying "Trust me, I KNOW."[/quote] Thanks for clearing it up that you're not getting what I'm saying. When was MANY the equivelant of MAJORITY? NEVER, that's when. If piracy was an issue they would actually have budget problems and not get positive incomes that still grows higher than last years. Also I don't consider statistics based on speculations or sales from few select shops in a region for evidence, because they aren't. So I'm just fighting equally without using made-up numbers. [QUOTE=combine487;27685629]And yes there is a way to measure how many people payed for the full product after downloading. You simply take the total amount of people that downloaded the game and then compare this with total sales over say, one year. It is highly unlikely that the majority of pirates go out an then purchase the game they downloaded. Their downloaded copy is a perfect match to the retail version. There is no quality difference, and therefore paying a price for an identical product they already own is simply not going to happen on a large scale. This is human nature, and basic economics.[/quote] Hahaha, yeah, okay, that makes no sense. A download is not the equivelant of one unique user that has played the game that is downloaded. A download could be someone wanting a digital copy of the CD they bought (or roundabouting some problem with the CD they bought). A download could be someone re-downloading it again because they deleted it earlier or need to burn out a new CD because they have broken the original CD. A download could be someone downloading it but never bothering to install it just leaving it on their disk. I'm not saying the majority doesn't install and play the downloaded game however, but a lot of people are cut out on the way. Then after you have cut out that bunch you need to cut out even more. You can't know who is below the games age rating that downloaded it (meaning they aren't even supposed to be your customer). Nor can you know who actually purchased the game after trying the downloaded version, and you can't fully compare sales to downloads because not every buyer is a pirate and not every pirate is a possible buyer, easily explained by the two previous cut-out groups I just mentioned. [QUOTE=combine487;27685629]On another note, if what you are saying is true, then there would not be such a major discrepancy in sales between console and PC. PC still has a very large player base in competition with consoles, and yet their sales are dramatically lower than their console equivalents. If what you are saying is true, this would not be the case. Like I mentioned previously, Call of Duty Black Ops was pirated nearly 4.5 million times. Yet only 6% of its sales came from PC in the UK, compared to around 60% for Xbox. [/quote] This is VERY easily explained. Who buys consoles? Parents do. People with jack shit knowledge about the advanced world of computers, or at least very little of it is the main users of consoles. People that find computers too advanced to handle and just want something to plug in and play with right away with no hassle with installation, hardware requirments etc etc, those are the people that first and foremost have consoles. Most of those people don't pirate games, and if they do they don't know how to pirate a game for consoles and get it working. Especially since you usually have to mod the whole fucking console in order to do so. Piracy on consoles is a fucking hassle, thus they don't bother, especially since you can get most of those titles on the PC anyways so they just pirate the PC version instead. (meaning consoles can to a very insignificant extent help RAISE piracy for the PC) Also since consoles have become the new gathering place for social playing most people buy the console version of a popular game instead of the PC version. It's a pretty common problem that you have to chose between what console you want a game for because in the end it will decide who you can play with. Some friends have that and that and some friends have this and this. This helps increasing sales for the consoles and decreasing it for the PC. [QUOTE=combine487;27685629]You may argue that the reason for this is that piraters are not satisfied with the games they download and therefore do not wish to pay for the full product. This makes sense, but again isn't true. Quality is not a factor in determining piracy, popularity is. People are not paying for the full product because they have no incentive too.[/quote] Quality is a factor. But getting stuff for free still interests most pirates more, that is a given and I have still not pulled a card on this section of it. The reason for this again also points back to the fact that a really fucking large amount of pirates are basement dwellers and/or teenagers with hardly or no form of income. What little they can spend they only spend on [U][I][B]really[/B][/I][/U] [del]good[/del] popular games that their friends also play or that they are a fan of or because the game is only fun in multiplayer. (or in some rare cases, because it's good and that's it) [QUOTE=combine487;27685629]To make my point totally clear, you are a minority. Total downloads is still dramatically higher than total sales on the PC. If what you are saying is true, PC should have a much larger market share, which it doesn't. Rather than making this wall of text even larger by quoting, please read the last paragraph on this page: [URL]http://www.tweakguides.com/Piracy_3.html[/URL]. Sales for PC has never taken into account of all the actual sales. Especially not digital. They chose a handful of retail stores and use them as an example of all stores in the whole fucking world (it really has to be taken into consideration that downloads are spread world wide (although the majority of any download is highly likely in pretty much any case American) and that the stores they gather numbers from don't cover the whole world at all) What I read is simply you quoting all of this to make your arguments rather than argumenting for yourself. Although on the other side, if you agree with the article so much there is not much need to formulate your own opinions around it because someone made them for you. I also read a lot about evidence. But I've stated well enough what I think of their "evidence" already. [QUOTE=combine487;27685629]I still don't think this is a fully formed argument, it seems you are just grasping at straws to justify the act of piracy. I would like to say I agree that more games need demos. Demos are a fantastic way to promote a game and more developers should use them.[/QUOTE] That's like, your opinion man. You're just grasping yourself to an article or two with lots of talk that you think sounds right. I don't see all that much of a difference other than the articles being made by someone else rather than yourself. Definitely. [QUOTE=combine487;27685629]Can you truly not judge the quality of a game by researching it? Maybe I am a more astute gamer than you, but watching videos, reading reviews and knowing who has made the game should tell you all you need to know. Do you need to download the next Call of Duty to know what it's going to be like? If you don't think game trailers tell you anything about a game then you clearly are not understanding them.[/QUOTE] :downs: Trailers just showoff their pwutthy gwafixx and how good their engine is by making it all rendered through the engine. Then they stuff text into it every now and then telling you how many weapons and features they have. 80% of the time a game doesn't even bother showing how the actual game is. I love how you go and bring out Call of Duty. That's a game SERIES, not a new game, you can in every way expect it to be like the last game, just hopefulyl improved. The reason you don't need to download it to know what's it like is because you've already played the 542 other games that came before it in the same series with the same name. If you think trailers tell you everything you need to know about the game then you don't need to know much (read as: anything). [QUOTE=combine487;27685629]I highly doubt you are going to pirate Half Life 2: Episode 3 when it comes out to "make sure it's good enough for a purchase". And yes this is a good example. You are not going to pirate this game because you know the developers and you understand the games they make. If you understand the games industry judging the quality of games should be fairly easy for you.[/QUOTE] HAHSdiuadsiuh ahiu ahHA HAHA HAH AHHAHHAHAHAHHA Again with the goddamn game SERIES. I've played Half Life, Half Life 2, Half Life 2 episode 1&2, it's a fucking given that I'm going to get the same goddamn game just better because that's what we've been given all the time and they're not going to change that because then it wouldn't be Half Life. Watching videos let me know how fun it is to WATCH SOMEBODY PLAY THE GAME. And I [B]FUCKING[U] LOVE[/U][/B] many games like Dungeon Keeper, Worms, Theme Park World and some others. BUT GODDAMN are they incredibly fucking boring to watch other people play. You can't even comprehend why they are supposed to be fun to play. Oh, oho hoh oho, best example would be games like Tetris. Give me a video about Tetris and I would shut it down immediatly and then go to sleep, give me Tetris to play and I could sit there for hours (possibly) and have fun. Reading reviews can give a fair and vague understanding of the game's story and originality, and depending on how subjective the reviewer is and how well you get along with his/her taste you can get a pretty good understanding it it really is a good game or not. But more often than not you will just understand that "this game is supposedly good/bad according to ***'s opinion". Knowing who has made the game matters without mattering at all. Bad companies can make good games too, just not as often. You can know what to expect from it in terms of bugs, optimization, patches and extra content. But you can't know if the game is going to be good, but you can get a bigger pre-judgment of it being the one or the other. Valve VS EA forexample. Mass producers versus someone spending 5 years on one title. So yes, knowing who made it does help, but it still won't tell you anything about the game, only make you make up your mind beforehand on what to expect from it.
[QUOTE=The very best;27687484]$60 is a lot for a game? hell most games are up to $100 over here in Australia on release. even on steam, and our dollar is near equal to the american dollar too.[/QUOTE] You know that if games rise in price in american dollars, they rise in price an all other currencies too.
[QUOTE=combine487;27685629]Lots of quotes from articles[/QUOTE] Hey, good job knowing how to tell us someone else's opinion and a bunch of random "facts" Why can't you come up with your OWN opinion, rather than copy-pasting the "facts" that use about 1/1,000,000 of the population as proof that applies to the entire world? [QUOTE=dgg;27690138]Actual opinions and more realistic facts[/QUOTE] This is better. I actually have experienced many of the examples of legitimate downloads you posted.
[QUOTE=combine487;27685629] That statement is entirely false. Console piracy is no where near the magnitude of PC piracy. You just told a complete lie.[/QUOTE] Cool my opinions don't matter. There a lot still but, whatever float your boat :v: You just use facts threw what article you read and surrounded your opinions around it. That isn't much facts.
Well I always knew arguing agaisnt piracy on facepunch was like diving head first into a tidal wave. Rather than keep this shit storm brewing in an infinite circle I think I'll make a few concessions. You've certainly made me think about how total downloads may not reflect total amount of piracy. And seeing as we both agree that the majority if piraters don't go on to make a full purchase I've lost sight of what we are actually arguing about. Piracy as a means to test a game seems like the only real excuse I can agree with. I still wouldn't encourage people to do it. My position is still that piracy is a negative influence on the PC industry however. And to be honest in all this shit fighting I'm not sure how you feel about that. [QUOTE=firen00b6;27697806]Hey, good job knowing how to tell us someone else's opinion and a bunch of random "facts" Why can't you come up with your OWN opinion, rather than copy-pasting the "facts" that use about 1/1,000,000 of the population as proof that applies to the entire world? This is better. I actually have experienced many of the examples of legitimate downloads you posted.[/QUOTE] I'm sorry to go off on a tangent in what may appear to be running away from an argument but I don't understand this. Why do you have a problem with me using a source to display evidence in support of my position? And why are you placing the word facts in quotes as if they are somehow not relevant to the discussion. I have stated my opinion many times. And then I was using that article to SUPPORT my position rather than using flabby anecdotal evidence, but apparently you think that is more legitimate. Would you rather I just came in here and said, "Well MY OPINION is that ALL pirates download the game and then REFUSE to purchase a full copy NO MATTER WHAT." Yeah that sounds like a great argument right there. Also, I don't understand your snipe about the article using a small portion of the population to judge the majority. Maybe you should look up how statistics work. [QUOTE=Nexus_Elite;27702940]Cool my opinions don't matter. There a lot still but, whatever float your boat :v: You just use facts threw what article you read and surrounded your opinions around it. That isn't much facts.[/QUOTE] Again I'm going off course but... what? I read this article along with many others to FORM my opinion. I use this as an example because it is a very well written piece and easy to navigate. I'm sorry to keep quoting it over and over but I get the sneaking suspicion no one here has actually gone through the thing from beginning to end. Especially considering arguments keep re-appearing that it deals with. Also you're saying. "Yeah I well I don't care about the evidence because my opinions don't matter. But atleast I have my own opinion, you just listen to the facts!" You'd make a good creationist.
[QUOTE=combine487;27707893]Well I always knew arguing agaisnt piracy on facepunch was like diving head first into a tidal wave. Rather than keep this shit storm brewing in an infinite circle I think I'll make a few concessions. You've certainly made me think about how total downloads may not reflect total amount of piracy. And seeing as we both agree that the majority if piraters don't go on to make a full purchase I've lost sight of what we are actually arguing about. Piracy as a means to test a game seems like the only real excuse I can agree with. I still wouldn't encourage people to do it. My position is still that piracy is a negative influence on the PC industry however. And to be honest in all this shit fighting I'm not sure how you feel about that.[/QUOTE] Arguing about anything on the internet is like diving head first into a tidal wave. That just means that we've come to a point where we both have come to an agreement about what we think about the subject. To encourage piracy would be dumb. I don't find piracy to damage the industry nor exactly help it (in other words I don't find piracy to be a deal at all). But if I had to chose I would say help because it can spread the word around and increase the possibility of sales However even though I'm saying I don't find piracy to be a deal it should very well be considered a deal, or at least be given the impression of being a deal by companies. A company should never lay flat and say "Piracy isn't all that bad and we think of it more as a help than a thread" even if they actually think so. Because that would be wrong as they are promoting illegal means and makes the people believe it's ok to pirate and then it could become a real problem because then most people that would normally buy it just pirate instead because they green lit that idea. So by accepting piracy it would become a problem. By treating piracy as a problem (whether or not it actually is a problem) it won't become a problem.
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