• Rand Paul Wants To Cut $500 billion By Cutting Defense, Shutting Down Education Dept.
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[QUOTE=Strider*;27553651]Stop what? My campaign for rational enlightenment and freedom? You would be against that, you're the collectivist.[/QUOTE] I wouldn't look for rational enlightenment and freedom on facepunch.
yo you can argue about politics, but don't delude yourself into thinking that by arguing on a sourcemod forum you're partaking in a grand crusade for "enlightenment and freedom". You're getting into the territory of 4channers who think that wearing guy fawkes masks outside their local church of scientology is doing something noble [editline]20th January 2011[/editline] i could maybe forgive ayn rand's terrible ideology if she wasn't such a terrible writer with just flat characters and cartoonish villains who engage in terrible dialogue. no one like Ellsworth Toohey actually exists in the real world
[QUOTE=Strider*;27553651]Stop what? My campaign for rational enlightenment and freedom? You would be against that, you're the collectivist.[/QUOTE] Socialist =/= Collectivist. And you, campaigning for rational enlightenment and freedom? If that's your idea of rational then that is just appalling.
[QUOTE=Sigma-Lambda;27553701]yo you can argue about politics, but don't delude yourself into thinking that by arguing on a sourcemod forum you're partaking in a grand crusade for "enlightenment and freedom" [editline]20th January 2011[/editline] i could maybe forgive ayn rand's terrible ideology if she wasn't such a terrible writer[/QUOTE] Ayn Rand is a terrific writer and her descriptive nature is some of the best. I never said I'm on a "grand crusade" on facepunch. But my ideas do not change once I log onto facepunch. Therefore when you attack my ideology I defend it, it's that simple. [editline]21st January 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Megafanx13;27553761]Socialist =/= Collectivist. And you, campaigning for rational enlightenment and freedom? If that's your idea of rational then that is just appalling.[/QUOTE] Derp Do you know what collectivism is?
I like how everyone goes "!""#&% department of education hes r retard without noticing or analyzing the idea that it is bloated piece of that would be better off shut down. I can't say whether that's a valid notion, but if you want to contest the idea of shutting it down you should outline why you think it's still needed.
[QUOTE=Strider*;27553793]Derp Do you know what collectivism is?[/QUOTE] From Wikipedia: "[B]Collectivism[/B] is any philosophic, political, economic or social outlook that emphasizes the interdependence [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interdependence"][/URL] of every human in some collective group and the priority of group goals over individual goals." I'm not emphasizing the idea that everyone [B]must [/B]work together, simply that it is very important. You're the one that is telling everyone that being selfish is great.
[QUOTE=Strider*;27553793] Derp Do you know what collectivism is?[/QUOTE] It looks like your just using it like how republicans call everyone socialists.
[quote]Ayn Rand is a terrific writer[/quote] oh my god make me laugh some more
[QUOTE=Strider*;27553793] Do you know what collectivism is?[/QUOTE] it's a boogeyword that doesn't properly encapsulate any real-world political ideology outside of Juche. Calling your opponent "collectivist" is like calling a band "hipster"; it means nothing because of how totally subject it's meaning is to interpretation by the speaker and listener.
[QUOTE=Derubermensch;27541919]Consumption is a choice, income is a necessity. I highly doubt the poor would suffer from this. It would slightly raise the price of goods, but on the other hand "tax season" never happens. A consumption tax is predicted to be far more efficient than an income tax so the poor would probably be getting better welfare benefits anyways. Nonetheless, it's absolutely retarded to base economic policy around the poor or rich.[/QUOTE] It's safe to assume that any politician who supports abolishing income tax also supports abolishing social security so the poor wouldn't be getting welfare anyway. But if you can present me with a societal model that's supported only by a consumption tax I'd love to see it.
Even though you kind of have to work together with other humans and the rest of nature if you want a cure for aids to be found or simply dont like living in the woods by yourself.
[QUOTE=Lazor;27553893]oh my god make me laugh some more[/QUOTE] ayn rand is a terrific writer if the only other thing you've read is The Babysitters Club and pamphlets on dog grooming.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;27553863]From Wikipedia: "[B]Collectivism[/B] is any philosophic, political, economic or social outlook that emphasizes the interdependence [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interdependence"][/URL] of every human in some collective group and the priority of group goals over individual goals." I'm not emphasizing the idea that everyone [B]must [/B]work together, simply that it is very important. You're the one that is telling everyone that being selfish is great.[/QUOTE] How do you plan on getting socialism to work then?
[QUOTE=Sigma-Lambda;27553895]it's a boogeyword that doesn't properly encapsulate any real-world political ideology outside of Juche. Calling your opponent "collectivist" is like calling a band "hipster". It means nothing because of how totally subjective it is to interpretation by the speaker and listener.[/QUOTE] Well I tried my best to provide a definition for it that Strider couldn't disagree with, but we'll have to see what he says.
[QUOTE=Strider*;27553925]How do you plan on getting socialism to work then?[/QUOTE] because socialism isn't forcing people to work together? gee definitions of words sure are hard to understand
[QUOTE=Strider*;27553925]How do you plan on getting socialism to work then?[/QUOTE] Communism is more dependent on everyone working together. Socialism does indeed require a great majority of people and government to agree on it to do, but it's not impossible by any stretch of imagination. [editline]20th January 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Sigma-Lambda;27553946]because socialism isn't forcing people to work together? gee definitions of words sure are hard to understand[/QUOTE] Pretty ironic considering that he just tried to call me out on understanding what Collectivism means.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;27553928]Well I tried my best to provide a definition for it that Strider couldn't disagree with, but we'll have to see what he says.[/QUOTE] the issue isn't that socialism isn't necessarily collectivism, the issue is that he thinks simply uttering the word "collectivist" is some sort of coherent criticism. It's like facepunch republicans who post "you guys are just a bunch of liberals" in threads that criticize conservatives and act like that means anything to the discussion at hand; it's not, it's simply presupposing that everyone agrees a certain descriptor is a universally negative thing
[QUOTE=Sigma-Lambda;27553909]ayn rand is a terrific writer if the only other thing you've read is The Babysitters Club and pamphlets on dog grooming.[/QUOTE] Never read those but I just finished reading Paradise Lost for reference.
[QUOTE=Strider*;27553925]How do you plan on getting socialism to work then?[/QUOTE] It can and does work (well at least until technological unemployment ruins it but by then it could go resource based)
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;27553947]Communism is more dependent on everyone working together. Socialism does indeed require a great majority of people and government to agree on it to do, but it's not impossible by any stretch of imagination. [/QUOTE] That's not what I'm arguing. It IS collectivism unless you want to tell me that you only wish to implement and support voluntary taxes.
[QUOTE=Strider*;27553973]Never read those but I just finished reading Paradise Lost for reference.[/QUOTE] well clearly you weren't paying no attention because if you were, you'd see how complicated and deep Satan's character is in Paradise Lost, and see it contrasted with how shallow and unreal everybody in Ayn Rand's books are also your dog must be very shaggy and unkempt
[QUOTE=Sigma-Lambda;27553967]the issue isn't that socialism isn't necessarily collectivism, the issue is that he thinks simply uttering the word "collectivist" is some sort of coherent criticism. It's like facepunch republicans who post "you guys are just a bunch of liberals" in threads that criticize conservatives and act like that means anything[/QUOTE] I can tell he's just sort of grouping Collectivism, Socialism, and probably Communism into a category of ideologies that he thinks are all the same thing.
[QUOTE=Strider*;27554009]That's not what I'm arguing. It IS collectivism unless you want to tell me that you only wish to implement and support voluntary taxes.[/QUOTE] Socialism is not Collectivism. That's not to say that some aspects of Socialism don't rely on some aspects of Collectivist ideas, but they are not one in the same.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;27554031]I can tell he's just sort of grouping Collectivism, Socialism, and probably Communism into a category of ideologies that he thinks are all the same thing.[/QUOTE] No socialism and communism are not entitites seperate of collectivism. In that they FORCE EVERYONE to sacrifice themselves for one another. You know it's fucking true.
[QUOTE=Strider*;27554062]No socialism and communism are not entitites seperate of collectivism. In that they FORCE EVERYONE to sacrifice themselves for one another. You know it's fucking true.[/QUOTE] Did you really just say that Socialism forces everyone to sacrifice themselves? Um, no, I don't know that's true, because it's fucking not.
[QUOTE=Strider*;27554009]That's not what I'm arguing. It IS collectivism unless you want to tell me that you only wish to implement and support voluntary taxes.[/QUOTE] so you've established that socialism is collectivism (so is, by that definition, pretty much every other system of government except anarchy and governments that get their funding [I]only[/I] from external sources [ie fucking vikings], because, apart from those two, all government require some form of taxing of the populace in order to have funds with which to operate) now you've got to establish why collectivism (and therefore any collectivist government [and therefore, as shown above, any government except pillaging societies]) is such a bad thing
[QUOTE=Strider*;27554062]No socialism and communism are not entitites seperate of collectivism. In that they FORCE EVERYONE to sacrifice themselves for one another. You know it's fucking true.[/QUOTE] You dont have to work you know. and even if you did whats your point?
"Two novels can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other involves orcs."
[QUOTE=Mingebox;27554345]"Two novels can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other involves orcs."[/QUOTE] Oh I haven't heard that one before. [editline]21st January 2011[/editline] Just because someone once posted that on their blog doesn't mean it's true.
[QUOTE=Strider*;27554932]Oh I haven't heard that one before. [editline]21st January 2011[/editline] Just because someone once posted that on their blog doesn't mean it's true.[/QUOTE] Well you do seem to be a slave to your political group. sure I like the people who changed my opinion but I am willing to disagree on some things.
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