• Jihadi arrests in EU nearly double in 2 years: Europol
    103 replies, posted
[QUOTE=EcksDee;52366027]Well, obviously. With the amount of anti-islamic racist rhetoric people like Trump and Marine LP keep spewing it's no fucking wonder terrorist recruitment numbers have gone up.[/QUOTE] or maybe it's because there's a literal fucking terrorist state wedged inbetween Syria and Iraq that's run a highly successful propaganda campaign Jesus Christ as bad as trump may be, it has nothing to do with him. What sort of dipshit thinks that Trump going "we need to block people from Libya coming to america" is causing thousands of Muslims in countries like Britain to go around planning terror attacks?
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;52366529]or maybe it's because there's a literal fucking terrorist state wedged inbetween Syria and Iraq that's run a highly successful propaganda campaign Jesus Christ as bad as trump may be, it has nothing to do with him. What sort of dipshit thinks that Trump going "we need to block people from Libya coming to america" is causing thousands of Muslims in countries like Britain to go around planning terror attacks?[/QUOTE] It may not be the main factor, doesn't mean it has nothing to do with it. The rise of xenophobia certainly doesn't make matters any better. Issues can have several different causes.
[QUOTE=_Axel;52366533]It may not be the main factor, doesn't mean it has nothing to do with it. The rise of xenophobia certainly doesn't make matters any better. Issues can have several different causes.[/QUOTE] he literally said [quote]I know you think this is a huge vindication of "Look! them moo slimes are gettin violent" when in actuality it's the radical conservative political movement that keeps alienating different groups that's almost definitely the [b]main cause[/b] for this.[/quote] this is complete and utter horseshit. "it's the rightwings fault for making muslims blow themselves" no sorry nobody believes that, are we willingly ignoring that there are several countries in the middle east (the Islamic State included) which are literally bankrolling terrorists here (or to go there) and the ideologues helping to spread the ideology of Wahhabis around in Europe? what the fuck does some orange clown on the other side of the planet have to do with this? the caliphate was already marching on Baghdad well before Trump even announced his campaign
[QUOTE=_Axel;52366533]It may not be the main factor, doesn't mean it has nothing to do with it. The rise of xenophobia certainly doesn't make matters any better. Issues can have several different causes.[/QUOTE] And the amount of attacks against religious minorities in the Middle East has skyrocketed as Islamists have taken control of areas. The real threat to people and the real oppression is happening there, yet we see people (the same ones making excuses for Islamist terror) condemning attempts to solve those issues. Whatever marginalisation occurs to Muslims in the UK, the US and the EU is miles below that which occurs in the Islamist strongholds to Muslims, women, LGBT individuals and religious minorities that these people are supporting. At best the "marginalisation" argument can only apply to Islamic supremacists, which is probably why the vast, vast majority of Muslims despise ISIS.
[QUOTE=Headhumpy;52366196]You're right, they weren't killed by a boogeyman. They were killed by radical Islamic terrorists who were recruited into the movement by rhetoric that takes advantage of rising Islamophobia in the West.[/QUOTE] And you can blame islamophobia on terrorist attacks, now who's the guilty one? Seriously, trying to pretend that terrorists and terrorist sympathisers are victims is downright disturbing.
I would love to be a fly on the wall in these investigations. I winder what tech they are using to find these guys. Doing a stand up job.
[QUOTE=jiggu;52366733]And you can blame islamophobia on terrorist attacks, now who's the guilty one? [/quote] Its poor logic though "A muslim did a crime" => "don't like muslims" [URL="http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/edl-sikh-manchester-homeless-abuse-volunteers-feeding-english-defence-league-racist-a7787241.html"](more realistically don't like anybody from diff ethnicity)[/URL] That's fucking retarded. Might as well be "A male between 19-30 wearing jeans and a arsenal shirt did a crime" => ... Such xenophobia and invalid pattern creating is a flaw in our behaviour which should not be embraced. If we allow people suffer needlessly. [quote] Seriously, trying to pretend that terrorists and terrorist sympathisers are victims is downright disturbing.[/QUOTE] This is a straw man. You are purposefully misrepresenting his position. It's dishonest and pathetic. The victims are those innocents affected by terrorism and those innocents affected by misguided retaliatory racist attacks. Terrorists might have been victims of racism at some point but it obviously doesn't justify what they went go on to do. Try not arguing in bad faith.
[QUOTE=EcksDee;52366132]No, I said the main reason for the INCREASE in recruitment numbers is anti islamic rhetoric, which is an entirely uncontroversial statement as there's already been articles on how ISIS uses Trump's statements to recruit more.[/QUOTE] Tell me, how would you react if a high ranking official of the government of another country said something negative against your countrymen? Would you suddenly join a terrorist organisation to attack the population of his country? And what is your definition of anti islamic rhetoric? For fundamentalists it may even be just criticizing conservative islam, like the homophobia or the misogyny in the Quran. If this is really the reason why muslims become radicalized then it would be even more important not to let anyone of them in. In my opinion, that is not the main reason of their radicalisation. Islamic terrorism existed well before the rise of anti islamic rhetoric. It is the other way around. All the terrorist attacks lead to a rise of anti islamic rhetoric.
[QUOTE=CarnolfMeatla;52366951]Tell me, how would you react if a high ranking official of the government of another country said something negative against your countrymen? Would you suddenly join a terrorist organisation to attack the population of his country? [/quote] Its not just 1 man. It's lots of people. [quote] And what is your definition of anti islamic rhetoric? For fundamentalists it may even be just criticizing conservative islam, like the homophobia or the misogyny in the Quran.[/quote] How about we only count the harassment which is recorded in the police figures indicating "2015 verbal and physical harassment of muslims increased by 326% country wide." [quote] If this is really the reason why muslims become radicalized then it would be even more important not to let anyone of them in.[/quote] Is this a realistic prospect? [quote] In my opinion, that is not the main reason of their radicalisation.[/quote] What is? [quote]Islamic terrorism existed well before the rise of anti islamic rhetoric.[/quote] Sort of true. Islamic Terrorism abroad has different motivations than home grown terror or people who radicalise while they're here. Someone like Bin Laden had different motivations and reasons than the Lee Rigby killer. Specific criticisms of Islam might have existed but they ballooned after 911 and before that muslim minorities would have still been marginalised on the basic of their ethnicity. Back than racists weren't afraid to express their feelings openly and wouldn't hide their xenophobia behind a false veil of [URL="http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/edl-sikh-manchester-homeless-abuse-volunteers-feeding-english-defence-league-racist-a7787241.html"]"I'm only criticising islam... honest!"[/URL] Home grown attacks are more recent, after the increases in xenophobia spawned by 911, which backs up my point that this is what radicals want. An increase in hatred toward muslims. [quote]It is the other way around. All the terrorist attacks lead to a rise of anti islamic rhetoric.[/QUOTE] Terrorist attacks have lead to a rise in anti islamic rhetoric. Also a rise of xenophobic rhetroic but: If rise of anti-islamic rhetoric (lets face it we're talking about xenophobia) doesn't help marginalise people making them more vulnerable to being radicalised, then why would ISIS have it as 1 of their aims? Marginalisation is often linked with radicalisation, google it. And its not just muslim extremists. [URL="https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/19/british-muslims-driven-to-extremism-alienated-at-home"]Left[/URL] and [URL="http://www.breitbart.com/london/2014/09/09/ginger-jihadis-why-redheads-are-attracted-to-radical-islam/"]right[/URL] admit this, the pervasive theory regarding radicalisation is based on identity, marginalisation separates people from their identity which creates a space which radicals exploit to offer their own, twisted identity.
[QUOTE=_Axel;52366206]Have I said that?[/QUOTE] Wait maybe I'm misunderstanding you. Your argument is that the number of deaths caused by terrorism is minuscule compared to things like cancer and traffic accidents so we should be concentrating on those instead. That the attention you give to a problem should be proportional to the death toll? Is that correct? [QUOTE=_Axel;52366206]And what does intent change about what we should do about it? Should we care more about the deaths of those who were killed intentionally than about those who were victims of manslaughter or other preventable causes? Intent would be relevant if we were talking about judging the perpetrators. It's irrelevant if what we're talking about is preventing the death of innocents.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=_Axel;52366206]The boogeyman part is saying they're a [I]major[/I] threat to the safety of Europeans. If something that causes a few hundred deaths per year in the EU is a major threat, then what is something that causes tens of thousands? A million? Hyper-major threats? Those who have an agenda to push present the terrorism threat as bigger than it really is, because it's a formidable rhetorical tool to use.[/QUOTE] Society can function pretty good even if 40% of deaths are cancer and heart disease related. If you had 40% of deaths terrorism related it would be a fucking warzone. When 5 people die in one year on a certain neighborhood due to cancer it will not be treated the same way as if someone brutally murdered 5 people in one year on that certain neighborhood. Stop equating those things. [QUOTE=_Axel;52366206]Then what do you disagree with in my statement?[/QUOTE] I never said a word about laws, I don't know what you are going after here. I simply disagreed that terrorism is a minuscule problem because a lot more people die due to cancer. [QUOTE=Cloak Raider;52366223]how is that moving the goalposts you made a point that was utterly redundant by purposefully taking a bankrupt reading of his post[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Headhumpy;52366225]The goalposts are fixed. You're the one running all over the field. What exactly are you trying to say?[/QUOTE] The argument was whether or not terrorism is a boogeyman, not about the cause of radicalization?
[QUOTE=CarnolfMeatla;52366951]If this is really the reason why muslims become radicalized then it would be even more important not to let anyone of them in.[/QUOTE] So is this your solution? Is this what your point of view boils down to? It's obvious that islamophobia didn't begin this whole wave of islamic terrorism, it's a complex issue and you can't pin it on neither islamophobes nor muslims. What is obvious - or atleast it should be - is that persecuting muslims doesn't help and there are countless other issues with doing so.
To the people here saying this is the result of millions of muslims living in Europe, what is your solution? Mass rounding up and deportation? Some kind of [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madagascar_Plan"]Madagascar Plan?[/URL] If its truly the result of muslims merely existing, how do you plan to stop terrorism? Theres billions of muslims on this planet, and theres millions of Muslims who've been living in Europe for decades. Should we just deport them all or kill them all or what? Because both of those are very fucking unrealistic. EDIT: Just realized the post above says the same thing, but I am looking for a genuine answer here
Curious to see how many of these arrests ended in convictions
[QUOTE=MrJazzy;52370668]So is this your solution? Is this what your point of view boils down to? It's obvious that islamophobia didn't begin this whole wave of islamic terrorism, it's a complex issue and you can't pin it on neither islamophobes nor muslims. What is obvious - or atleast it should be - is that persecuting muslims doesn't help and there are countless other issues with doing so.[/QUOTE] This is not a solution. There are many different kinds of muslim groups. Some more moderate, some more fundamentalistic. Most terrorist incidents are happening in the middle east between these groups. How do you differentiate between the good ones and the bad ones? My solution would be the reformation of Islam.Write a new Quran, like Christianity did with the Testament. Make it more fitting for a modern society with regards to human rights. But this change has to come from the inside of Islam. Outside influence won't be accepted by those who faithful in their believes. The goal would be to give terrorist leaders less fuel to indoctrinate people. Additionally, increase the education of people in the middle east. This will not only lead to less extremism, it will also lead to better living conditions, wealth, and all in all to a better country. People will be much more hesitant to die for a cause if they are wealthy and happy. It is a complex issue that needs a lot stuff done to solve it.
[QUOTE=CarnolfMeatla;52371674]This is not a solution. There are many different kinds of muslim groups. Some more moderate, some more fundamentalistic. Most terrorist incidents are happening in the middle east between these groups. How do you differentiate between the good ones and the bad ones? My solution would be the reformation of Islam.Write a new Quran, like Christianity did with the Testament. Make it more fitting for a modern society with regards to human rights. But this change has to come from the inside of Islam. Outside influence won't be accepted by those who faithful in their believes. The goal would be to give terrorist leaders less fuel to indoctrinate people. Additionally, increase the education of people in the middle east. This will not only lead to less extremism, it will also lead to better living conditions, wealth, and all in all to a better country. People will be much more hesitant to die for a cause if they are wealthy and happy. It is a complex issue that needs a lot stuff done to solve it.[/QUOTE] All points I agree with, now go talk about that instead of being caught saying things like "then it would be even more important not to let anyone of them in." which I'm trying real hard to find if I'm misunderstanding what you exactly mean.
[QUOTE=CarnolfMeatla;52371674]My solution would be the reformation of Islam.Write a new Quran, like Christianity did with the Testament.[/QUOTE] this would cause violent civil wars and kill millions of people. the last time a "reformation" of religion happened it led to half of europe having bloody wars of religion and genocides that killed a third of the population of germany and led to permanent sectarian divisions
[QUOTE=CarnolfMeatla;52371674]This is not a solution. There are many different kinds of muslim groups. Some more moderate, some more fundamentalistic. Most terrorist incidents are happening in the middle east between these groups. How do you differentiate between the good ones and the bad ones? My solution would be the reformation of Islam.Write a new Quran, like Christianity did with the Testament. Make it more fitting for a modern society with regards to human rights. But this change has to come from the inside of Islam. Outside influence won't be accepted by those who faithful in their believes. The goal would be to give terrorist leaders less fuel to indoctrinate people. Additionally, increase the education of people in the middle east. This will not only lead to less extremism, it will also lead to better living conditions, wealth, and all in all to a better country. People will be much more hesitant to die for a cause if they are wealthy and happy. It is a complex issue that needs a lot stuff done to solve it.[/QUOTE] Anyone who tried to write a new Quran would be branded an apostate and told to fuck off. You clearly don't understand religion, you can't just do that, particularly not in the modern age where it's a lot harder to convincingly pretend you were inspired by god. Never mind that it isn't even directly the Quran that is responsible for this, You'll notice that Shia muslims are never responsible for terror in the west despite following the Quran. It's all the wacky hadiths that promote this kind of behaviour.
The real solution is peace in the Middle East.
[QUOTE=EcksDee;52366027]Well, obviously. With the amount of anti-islamic racist rhetoric people like Trump and Marine LP keep spewing it's no fucking wonder terrorist recruitment numbers have gone up. [/QUOTE] Yep, being mean to muslims turns them into terrorists. Concurrently, terrorism has nothing to do with Islam Secondly, 'anti-islamic rhetoric' or at least anti-refugee rhetoric in Poland has made it the one of the few countries in Europe left without any terror attacks or problems with islamic refugees, I wonder how that works
[QUOTE=Cabbage;52374853]Yep, being mean to muslims turns them into terrorists. Concurrently, terrorism has nothing to do with Islam Secondly, 'anti-islamic rhetoric' or at least anti-refugee rhetoric in Poland has made it the one of the few countries in Europe left without any terror attacks or problems with islamic refugees, I wonder how that works[/QUOTE] I think the lack of terror attacks in poland has more to do with the fact that it's not really a world power, more than the fact they have few muslims. And to the implication that terrorism is somehow unique to Islam, have you heard of something called [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Troubles]The Troubles[/url]?
[QUOTE=Lambeth;52374904]I think the lack of terror attacks in poland has more to do with the fact that it's not really a world power, more than the fact they have few muslims. And to the implication that terrorism is somehow unique to Islam, have you heard of something called [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Troubles]The Troubles[/url]?[/QUOTE] Wasn't aware that Belgium, Sweden, Denmark and Norway were world powers.
[QUOTE=Lambeth;52374904]I think the lack of terror attacks in poland has more to do with the fact that it's not really a world power, more than the fact they have few muslims. And to the implication that terrorism is somehow unique to Islam, have you heard of something called [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Troubles]The Troubles[/url]?[/QUOTE] There have been attacks in Belgium, Italy, Austria, Sweden, Turkey. Not world powers. This is also not to mention all the attacks in India, Cambodia, Myanmar. Also the 'implication' that terrorism is unique to islam is something you decided to derive from my post yourself, so i'm not responding to it.
[QUOTE=Cabbage;52375168]There have been attacks in Belgium, Italy, Austria, Sweden, Turkey. Not world powers. This is also not to mention all the attacks in India, Cambodia, Myanmar.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Araknid;52374988]Wasn't aware that Belgium, Sweden, Denmark and Norway were world powers.[/QUOTE] You got me there. [QUOTE]Also the 'implication' that terrorism is unique to islam is something you decided to derive from my post yourself, so i'm not responding to it.[/QUOTE] It's really hard to read intent on the internet nowadays, sorry.
I don't see why it's controversial to suggest that marginalising people makes them far more susceptible to brainwashing or radicalisation
[QUOTE=CrumbleShake;52376171]I don't see why it's controversial to suggest that marginalising people makes them far more susceptible to brainwashing or radicalisation[/QUOTE] It's just another way to put responsibility on white people for everything bad in our world. It's Ramadan now and, for example, there's a terror attack or more in Afghanistan every day. Not to mention other countries. It's just a bit annoying to blame yourself because I don't see how terror attacks in the rest of the world could have been caused by marginalization (even more so marginalization by us. For us they can come from elsewhere to terrorize and indoctrinate here), especially when they are the majority. But there's no arguing with a radical leftist for whom unequal privilege is always the fault, so the discourse inevitably will go more extreme.
[QUOTE=Omesh;52377399]It's just another way to put responsibility on white people for everything bad in our world. It's Ramadan now and, for example, there's a terror attack or more in Afghanistan every day. Not to mention other countries. It's just a bit annoying to blame yourself because I don't see how terror attacks in the rest of the world could have been caused by marginalization (even more so marginalization by us, they can come from elsewhere to terrorize and indoctrinate here), especially when they are the majority. But there's no arguing with a radical leftist for whom unequal privilege is always the fault, so the discourse inevitably will go more extreme.[/QUOTE] Its not just shifting the blame when its a true fact that marginalization can contribute to radicalization. There's no single thing to blame, therefore you have to look at all the things which could help radicalize an individual. No one is saying the terrorist is not responsible for his actions, but you have to look at the science of it all and how for example a middle class English teenager can one day decide to join a terrorist group in East Africa. If you think people are just saying it to shift the blame your forgetting that some people are actually taking a more intelligent viewpoint because its not so black and white as you think
[QUOTE=Omesh;52377399]It's just another way to put responsibility on white people for everything bad in our world. It's Ramadan now and, for example, there's a terror attack or more in Afghanistan every day. Not to mention other countries. It's just a bit annoying to blame yourself because I don't see how terror attacks in the rest of the world could have been caused by marginalization (even more so marginalization by us. For us they can come from elsewhere to terrorize and indoctrinate here), especially when they are the majority.[/quote] Bin Laden had different motivations than the Lee Rigby killer, suggesting that Terrorists in the Uk and Afghanstan have the same motivations is incorrect. How do you explain extremism in the UK? [quote]But there's no arguing with a radical leftist for whom unequal privilege is always the fault, so the discourse inevitably will go more extreme.[/QUOTE] We're not even talking about unequal privilege, where do you get this from? IMO you've not read thread and just want to have a lil rant about dem liebruls. We are talking about discrimination marginalising people. Marginalised people are alienated from the "common" identity (ie British, Mancunian) and instead will turn to other identities leaving a gap for baddies to crawl in. That's not a liberal arguments. If anything its a [URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IchGuL501U"]conservative[/URL] argument.
[QUOTE=Crooky14;52377411]Its not just shifting the blame when its a true fact that marginalization can contribute to radicalization. There's no single thing to blame, therefore you have to look at all the things which could help radicalize an individual. No one is saying the terrorist is not responsible for his actions, but you have to look at the science of it all and how for example a middle class English teenager can one day decide to join a terrorist group in East Africa. If you think people are just saying it to shift the blame your forgetting that some people are actually taking a more intelligent viewpoint because its not so black and white as you think[/QUOTE] Every time they cry about the backlash that never happens. I think you're placing far too much weight on marginalization. How much would it take for an average non-muslim to flip. I think the threshold would be higher when for muslims, for example, it only takes a drawing. How do you marginalize them with a drawing when you can take the piss out of everyone else. That's beyond marginalization that you went to preferential treatment to avoid that. [QUOTE=mdeceiver79;52377419]Bin Laden had different motivations than the Lee Rigby killer, suggesting that Terrorists in the Uk and Afghanstan have the same motivations is incorrect. How do you explain extremism in the UK? We're not even talking about unequal privilege, where do you get this from? IMO you've not read thread and just want to have a lil rant about dem liebruls. We are talking about discrimination marginalising people. Marginalised people are alienated from the "common" identity (ie British, Mancunian) and instead will turn to other identities leaving a gap for baddies to crawl in. That's not a liberal arguments. If anything its a [URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IchGuL501U"]conservative[/URL] argument.[/QUOTE] How do you know they don't have the same motivations. Read the upper part first. I mentioned the rest of the world because there's no marginalization there, in some cases they spread there by force, so how can marginalization be so important for you, as if they have no doctrine to follow. I know second generations+ are more radical. It's laughable when people say immigrants didn't do it. Well, their intake leads directly to that anyway. Unequal privilege leftists was my answer to him why I see it controversial myself and I think for many others too.
[QUOTE=Omesh;52377430]Every time they cry about the backlash that never happens. I think you're placing far too much weight on marginalization. How much would it take for an average non-muslim to flip. I think the threshold would be higher when for muslims, for example, it only takes a drawing. How do you marginalize them with a drawing when you can take the piss out of everyone else. That's beyond marginalization that you went to preferential treatment to avoid that.[/QUOTE] So your suggesting that all Muslims would react in the same way as the Charlie Hebdo attackers did. I don't think you understand what being susceptible to radicalization is. The Charlie Hebdo attackers were radicalized way before they committed that attack, its not like someone just flipped a switch in their minds and they became terrorists.
[QUOTE=Crooky14;52377439]So your suggesting that all Muslims would react in the same way as the Charlie Hebdo attackers did. I don't think you understand what being susceptible to radicalization is. The Charlie Hebdo attackers were radicalized way before they committed that attack, its not like someone just flipped a switch in their minds and they became terrorists.[/QUOTE] You're bringing up all muslims. I think though that almost all would disagree and westerners cave aka give preferential treatment aka submit, as the name of Islam goes.
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