• Dutch referendum results - No to EU-Ukraine deal
    56 replies, posted
[url]http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/polls-open-dutch-referendum-eu-ukraine-trade-deal-38184454[/url] [quote]clear majority of people who voted Wednesday in a Dutch referendum rejected a far-reaching European Union free trade deal with Ukraine, and with all votes counted it was clear that the threshold of 30 percent voter turnout would be met and the result would be valid. The turnout was at 32.2 percent, broadcasters NOS and RTL reported after all votes were counted and reported by municipalities to national news agency ANP's election service. While it was long in doubt if the result would be valid, the sentiment among those in the nation of 17 million who voted was crystal clear: According to the ANP count, 61.1 percent rejected the EU-Ukraine pact and 38.1 percent voted for it. The remaining votes were blank or spoiled. "It looks like the Dutch people said NO to the European elite and NO to the treaty with the Ukraine," tweeted popular anti-Islam, anti-EU lawmaker Geert Wilders. "The beginning of the end of the EU." As expected, the vote underscored a deep-rooted skepticism about this country's place in Europe. The non-binding Dutch vote came less than three months before British citizens decide in their own referendum whether to leave the EU altogether. The Netherlands is a founding member of the EU, a trading nation that benefits from its internal market, but paradoxically also a hotbed of Euroskepticism that rejected the bloc's proposed constitution in a 2005 referendum. Exactly what will happen to the agreement now remains unclear.[/quote] Well, the wetdream's over, perhabs now Ukranian Goverment will actually try to uphold higher values and fight corruption rather than just pretend to be soo "democratic" due to media whitewashing all of their actions. Also the salt on social networks is strong.
[quote]remaining votes were blank or spoiled.[/quote] What's a spoiled ballot?
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;50085166]What's a spoiled ballot?[/QUOTE] When you don't follow the instructions. A donkey vote.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;50085166]What's a spoiled ballot?[/QUOTE] They wrote on the voting paper or just fucked up voting in some other way.
Who cares, the association deal is still happening
The whole referendum was a bit of a wash because of the 30% turn-up threshold. If all yes-voters stayed at home (which I personally assume, most potential yes-voters actually did), that threshold wouldn't have been met and the referendum would've been invalid. It's more likely that the law that allows for these particular referenda will change to adapt more sensible rules.
I'd just like to mention that a shitton of people did not vote on purpose, including me. The referendum is bogus, the guys who lead the initiative said they didn't even give a fuck about the deal or Ukraine, they just want to sabotage the EU because they want us to leave
[QUOTE=zupadupazupadude;50085319]I'd just like to mention that a shitton of people did not vote on purpose, including me. The referendum is bogus, the guys who lead the initiative said they didn't even give a fuck about the deal or Ukraine, they just want to sabotage the EU because they want us to leave[/QUOTE] The problem now is that I will have to deal with Russian idiots cheering and Ukrainian idiot salt for weeks because of this referendum. I wish people would actually take the time to figure out what is going on before posting about it on the internet. I also wish that the eurosceptics would choose a different referendum to make their point.
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;50085300]Who cares, the association deal is still happening[/QUOTE] Well, good luck with receiving any longterm benefit from that!
[QUOTE=karimatrix;50085344]2014 - we will join EU with no visa requirment in two years! 2015 - well atleast we will join EU association and get a free trade agreement! 2016 - well atleast we're getting association with EU[/QUOTE] Anything is better than siding with the shithole called Russia so they win regardless.
[QUOTE=karimatrix;50085344]2014 - we will join EU with no visa requirment in two years! 2015 - well atleast we will join EU association and get a free trade agreement! 2016 - well atleast we're getting association with EU[/QUOTE] The free trade agreement is already in place, and it's in effect for 4 months already, holy shit, do some research before you post.
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;50085364]The free trade agreement is already in place, and it's in effect for 4 months already, holy shit, do some research before you post.[/QUOTE] oh i am sorry but i would not call the "eu pours all goods in ukraine while ukraine gottta work with tariffs and restrictions to export to eu" a trully free market agreement. Buut ya right, i'll snip it
To be honest I only see one salty poster in this thread(and others)
[QUOTE=karimatrix;50085398]oh i am sorry but i would not call the "eu pours all goods in ukraine while ukraine gottta work with tariffs and restrictions to export to eu" a trully free market agreement. Buut ya right, i'll snip it[/QUOTE] Except this doesn't happen? Stop the bullshit already, it's like "I don't know what happened, but Ukraine definitely sucks" with you all the time
Dude it's Karimatrix.
karimatrix is just mad ukraine told russia to fuck off lol
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;50085166]What's a spoiled ballot?[/QUOTE] To elaborate on the explanations already given by other posters, at least over here in Germany invalidating ballots on purpose is usually done as a means of protest voting because you're unhappy with the presented choices for example. While not voting at all will basically just give more influence to the remaining votes, invalid ballots need to be counted in a separate "screw all of the above" section alongside the normal choices.
[QUOTE=zupadupazupadude;50085319]I'd just like to mention that a shitton of people did not vote on purpose, including me. The referendum is bogus, the guys who lead the initiative said they didn't even give a fuck about the deal or Ukraine, they just want to sabotage the EU because they want us to leave[/QUOTE] People are seeing it more as a proper middle finger to the EU, and honestly, why shouldn't we be angry at the EU? We pay the most per household to the EU out of all European countries, yet our households still barely get a say in the EU. They keep making terrible deals, especially in the last few years, fucking Turkey gets fast-tracked towards EU membership because only Merkel wants it, and we didn't get a single say in it either. That isn't even getting started with how poorly the EU defends its borders. We are seriously lucky that countries like Hungary and Macedonia still have their spines, since the EU clearly hasn't. Add with it that our current government is caring more about the EU than our own country, or securing a EU job after this election cycle, and that said government has a scandal every two months at this rate, our taxes go up and we get less and less in return for it, and you can see why people here are fed up with the EU. It's not really something against the Ukrainian people, but people genuinely don't want to shell out billions of euros every year into Greece 2.0. Also, this does place the current Dutch government in a bit of a predicament. They could ignore the referendum and approve the EU's plan, yet that would most likely damage their political parties to the point that they pretty much hand over the next elections next year to the Euro-sceptic Nationalistic party here. Or they actually listen to the results of the referendum, which will probably result in the EU plan's getting delayed, which might result in a repeat of the 2004 Treaty of Lisbon, where the Dutch population also voted against back then, before the EU approved it anyway by rewriting some parts and not holding a referendum about it this time. Either way, it will be interesting to see how this is going to affect the Brexit next June.
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;50085411] Stop the bullshit already, it's like "I don't know what happened, but Ukraine definitely sucks" with you all the time[/QUOTE] Entire forum goes same way about Russia, pal soo now ya can relate. But hey i am not gonna argue with ya, soo rather than that, please share your opinion on concequence of referendum and following Decision of Dutch goverment to respect results and stop ratification?
Could you stop calling people "pal" and "ya" in this weird try to sound somehow relaxed and "standing above it" that's totally contrasted by the stuff you actually say?
[QUOTE=karimatrix;50085490]Entire forum goes same way about Russia, pal soo now ya can relate. But hey i am not gonna argue with ya, soo rather than that, please share your opinion on concequence of referendum and following Decision of Dutch goverment to respect results and stop ratification?[/QUOTE] I don't really care, the referendum will not affect the association at all, it was already signed by all countries in the EU except for the Netherlands, it's just a matter of time until it's signed by the Dutch
[QUOTE=Jordax;50085484]People are seeing it more as a proper middle finger to the EU, and honestly, why shouldn't we be angry at the EU? We pay the most per household to the EU out of all European countries, yet our households still barely get a say in the EU. They keep making terrible deals, especially in the last few years, fucking Turkey gets fast-tracked towards EU membership because only Merkel wants it, and we didn't get a single say in it either. That isn't even getting started with how poorly the EU defends its borders. We are seriously lucky that countries like Hungary and Macedonia still have their spines, since the EU clearly hasn't. Add with it that our current government is caring more about the EU than our own country, or securing a EU job after this election cycle, and that said government has a scandal every two months at this rate, our taxes go up and we get less and less in return for it, and you can see why people here are fed up with the EU. It's not really something against the Ukrainian people, but people genuinely don't want to shell out billions of euros every year into Greece 2.0. Also, this does place the current Dutch government in a bit of a predicament. They could ignore the referendum and approve the EU's plan, yet that would most likely damage their political parties to the point that they pretty much hand over the next elections next year to the Euro-sceptic Nationalistic party here. Or they actually listen to the results of the referendum, which will probably result in the EU plan's getting delayed, which might result in a repeat of the 2004 Treaty of Lisbon, where the Dutch population also voted against back then, before the EU approved it anyway by rewriting some parts and not holding a referendum about it this time. Either way, it will be interesting to see how this is going to affect the Brexit next June.[/QUOTE] When you call Hungary having a spine do you mean Orban totally deconstructing freedom of press and seperation of the 3 powers and his willingness to talk about death penalty or do you just ramble on about bad refugees like usual? How is "having a spine" even any valid quity for something as abstract as a government/a country?
[QUOTE=Jordax;50085484]People are seeing it more as a proper middle finger to the EU, and honestly, why shouldn't we be angry at the EU? We pay the most per household to the EU out of all European countries, yet our households still barely get a say in the EU. They keep making terrible deals, especially in the last few years, fucking Turkey gets fast-tracked towards EU membership because only Merkel wants it, and we didn't get a single say in it either. That isn't even getting started with how poorly the EU defends its borders. We are seriously lucky that countries like Hungary and Macedonia still have their spines, since the EU clearly hasn't. Add with it that our current government is caring more about the EU than our own country, or securing a EU job after this election cycle, and that said government has a scandal every two months at this rate, our taxes go up and we get less and less in return for it, and you can see why people here are fed up with the EU. It's not really something against the Ukrainian people, but people genuinely don't want to shell out billions of euros every year into Greece 2.0. [/QUOTE] So I have to be honest, I'm not very informed on this issue. However, I feel like if what you're saying is all true, there'd be more of an effect felt. Your post comes across heavily as unadulterated cynical nationalism. "yet our households still barely get a say in the EU" for example, just isn't really true. It's a very negative view on our position in the EU. I appreciate that you're not happy in the current situation, but I am starting to feel that among the Dutch people there's a nationalism growing. That's not good. People are starting to largely prefer to ignore the benefits of our situation in the EU, as an excuse to angrily circlejerk about how shit the government is. I don't think any government is without fault, but we're doing fine as is. I personally love being in the EU, but you're making a lot of blanket statements as if you're talking for the entire population. "We are seriously lucky that countries like Hungary and Macedonia still have their spines, since the EU clearly hasn't" "fucking Turkey gets fast-tracked towards EU membership because only Merkel wants it, and we didn't get a single say in it either." "They keep making terrible deals" "We pay the most per household to the EU out of all European countries, yet our households still barely get a say in the EU" "our taxes go up and we get less and less in return for it" All of these statements are largely unfounded (not necessarily saying they're not factual, but you're just throwing them out as facts here) and/or a cynical view on the situation. You're really not helping anyone or anything. Leaving the EU is not working towards a solution, completely refreshing the government is not a solution, and following the UK in angry nationalism is not a solution to the issues. And you're painting the image of the Netherlands as some kind of horror story with a terribly incompetent government. Is it still even possible for you to be objective? Nationalism is growing, and objectivity is thrown to the wayside because it doesn't always follow popular opinion. I completely agree that this referendum puts the government in a difficult position, but I don't see why we're cheering at the fact that this was a set-up to further increase nationalistic spirit in the Netherlands, as an attempt to leave the EU.
[QUOTE=karimatrix;50085148][url]http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/polls-open-dutch-referendum-eu-ukraine-trade-deal-38184454[/url] [quote]The Netherlands is a founding member of the EU, a trading nation that benefits from its internal market, but paradoxically also a hotbed of Euroskepticism that rejected the bloc's proposed constitution in a 2005 referendum.[/quote][/QUOTE] This was complete bullshit. We voted against the EU constitution. What happened was that they just went "lol fuck you" and changed about one sentence and accepted it anyway.
Lets not forget that the Netherlands are THE trade hub of the EU and massively profits off this.
[QUOTE=Killuah;50085539]Lets not forget that the Netherlands are THE trade hub of the EU and massively profits off this.[/QUOTE] No we won't [img]http://i.imgur.com/3kM2h4Z.png[/img] [url]http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/ukr/[/url] [url]http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/nld/#Destinations[/url] We import export $539B a year and import $550B. Compare that to the Ukraine's $64.7B export and $83B import. They are not interesting to us at all.
I was speaking about the EU in general in response to Jordax anti-EU opinions. Do these statistics take into account that a lot of the import of the whole EU goes through the Netherlands?
[QUOTE=Killuah;50085587]I was speaking about the EU in general in response to Jordax anti-EU opinions. Do these statistics take into account that a lot of the import of the whole EU goes through the Netherlands?[/QUOTE] Stuff in transit is not import/export. The ±$30B export from the EU that is done to the Ukraine is not that interesting. And the main benefactors from that are Germany, Poland and Belarus. Germany has a $1.38T export so that %0,021 should not be worth the effort for them.
Call me stupid but I think the Netherlands might profit from being the biggest trade port in the biggest free trading and monetary union as well as the biggest economic area in the world. Of course the talks with Ukraine is political and against Russian interest but using existing economy and trading numbers as reasons against a proposition that's basically saying "hey lets increase trading" seems kinda missing the goal?
[QUOTE=Killuah;50085784]Call me stupid but I think the Netherlands might profit from being the biggest trade port in the biggest free trading and monetary union as well as the biggest economic area in the world. Of course the talks with Ukraine is political and against Russian interest but using existing economy and trading numbers as reasons against a proposition that's basically saying "hey lets increase trading" seems kinda missing the goal?[/QUOTE] Ukrainian import goods will likely not go through the Netherlands instead through the Piraeus port (Greece). I doubt Ukraine's import/export will increase since the country produces nothing but iron. In the end the deal has more cons then pros. The treaty contains more then just "hey fam wanna trade?". It contains stuff like the EU "increasing the stability of the Ukrainian borders" this will tick off Russia a lot. Ukrainian citizens won't need a Visa to travel to the EU and vice versa. Ukraine can ask for financial support to enact certain aspects of the treaty but the country is one of the most corrupt in the world. The EU will provide military support (this is in article 1!) and they will start the procedure of joining the UN.
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