• Journey into the ‘stabbing intifada’
    58 replies, posted
[URL]http://www.politico.eu/article/journey-into-the-stabbing-intifada/[/URL] A decent overview of the latest round of hostilities and some interesting views from people on the front line. It feels a little biased in favor of Israel, but it still provides interesting insight into what's going on right now. [QUOTE][B]Since early October, a surge of violence[/B] between Israelis and Palestinians has gripped Jerusalem and its surrounding areas. Some [URL="http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/10/ready-or-not-the-third-intifada-may-be-here/409507/"]commentators suggest[/URL] that Israel may now be facing a third intifada. The spark, this time, was a controversy over the Al-Aqsa mosque, a holy site for Muslims — who believe Mohammed led the prophets of Allah in prayer there just before his ascension to heaven — and for Jews, who refer to it as the Temple Mount and believe it to be the site of Abraham’s binding of Isaac, the birth of all creation and where, one day, the third temple will stand. Unfounded rumors — encouraged by elements of the Palestinian leadership — that the Israeli government plans to destroy the mosque have been rife for years, but intensified over the past six months. Violence was inevitable. Unlike previous intifadas — the first took place from December 1987 to 1991 and the second from September 2000 to February 2005 — there has been no mass uprising. Rather, individual attacks, mostly stabbings, have occurred almost daily. According to a statement by Eli Ben, the head of Magen David Adom, the Israeli Red Cross, there have been 91 stabbings, 34 shootings and 17 car rammings (where Palestinians have driven cars into Israelis walking on the street). Twenty-two Israelis have been killed and 252 wounded. On the other side, Israeli security forces have killed 110 Palestinian attackers. [/QUOTE]
How can you not be in favour of Israel when the other side is a bunch of animals just attacking random people which, for all they know, may be leftists and want only better?? How is the other side any different to some dire wolves attacking innocent people?? I used to be sympathetic for the Palestinian, but this is beyond ridiculous. Randomly attacking anyone in the street is just impossible to justify.
[QUOTE=Crhem van der B;49419649]How can you not be in favour of Israel when the other side is a bunch of animals just attacking random people which, for all they know, may be leftists and want only better?? How is the other side any different to some dire wolves attacking innocent people?? I used to be sympathetic for the Palestinian, but this is beyond ridiculous. Randomly attacking anyone in the street is just impossible to justify.[/QUOTE] Exactly. People use the claim that they are 'resisting occupation', but even leaving aside the fact that non-violent campaigns are far more successful than violent campaigns (as well as that I would not condone attacks on Israeli soldiers either), you cannot claim this is merely violent action in reaction to occupation when very often it is civilian and not military that is targeted. This is terrorism, plain and simple.
it's just like the crusades, neither side is better than the other. I'd say just let them kill each other but countless innocents will be caught in the crossfire.
[QUOTE=Megadave;49419759]it's just like the crusades, neither side is better than the other. I'd say just let them kill each other but countless innocents will be caught in the crossfire.[/QUOTE] One side is a terror group (Hamas) and two others are democratic governments (Israel and the West Bank), of which one is far less provocative than the other (compare the speech of Netanyahu, who I consider to be inflammatory and I am not a big fan of, to the terrible things that Abbas has said in the past). It's very fashionable nowadays to pretend all sides are all equal and not have to make a decision, but the reality is that there are very clear differences between a side that seeks to minimise civilian casualties and the other who aims to maximise them.
[QUOTE=Crhem van der B;49419649]How can you not be in favour of Israel[/QUOTE] Because they are guilty of doing some pretty inhumane shit at the same time.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;49419826]One side is a terror group (Hamas) and two others are democratic governments (Israel and the West Bank), of which one is far less provocative than the other (compare the speech of Netanyahu, who I consider to be inflammatory and I am not a big fan of, to the terrible things that Abbas has said in the past). It's very fashionable nowadays to pretend all sides are all equal and not have to make a decision, but the reality is that there are very clear differences between a side that seeks to minimise civilian casualties and the other who aims to maximise them.[/QUOTE] In what way is the Palestinian Authority democratic? Last time they had an election was 2006 and Hamas won those.
[QUOTE=ScumBunny;49420125]In what way is the Palestinian Authority democratic? Last time they had an election was 2006 and Hamas won those.[/QUOTE] I believe that you could consider the West Bank democratic (correct me if I'm wrong), but not Gaza, which indeed did elect Hamas, which then proceeded to kill their political opponents and not hold another election.
[QUOTE=polarbear.;49420109]Because they are guilty of doing some pretty inhumane shit at the same time.[/QUOTE] Yet so has the other side.
stop acting like there's a good guy and a bad guy here. both sides have committed innumerable atrocities.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49420171]stop acting like there's a good guy and a bad guy here. both sides have committed innumerable atrocities.[/QUOTE] There is a worse side though, even if you hold the Israeli state in low regard. Which is the terrorist group of Hamas.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;49420184]There is a worse side though, even if you hold the Israeli state in low regard. Which is the terrorist group of Hamas.[/QUOTE] Yes one side has a terrorist group. I guess that makes the actions of Israel okay when they also do damage regularly to civilians? No, you could just do the reasonable thing here and admit that backing either side is wrong. There is context that created Hamas. It is not a good thing Hamas exists, but there is a reason it does. Both sides are bad. Acting like one is "Less bad" is kinda dumb when in reality, both sides are really only hurting civillians who want a normal life. Hamas has such an easy time recruiting because of how heavy handed Israel is in that region. I mean sure, you can say "one sides the actual bad guys" but that's utterly meaningless in my opinion because it forgets the context of the region when discussing it.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;49420138]I believe that you could consider the West Bank democratic (correct me if I'm wrong), but not Gaza, which indeed did elect Hamas, which then proceeded to kill their political opponents and not hold another election.[/QUOTE] [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah%E2%80%93Hamas_conflict_(2006%E2%80%9307)#2006_elections_and_Hamas-government"]The 2006 elections that started the Fatah-Hamas civil war[/URL] were the last general elections in Palestine. Since then neither the PA in the West Bank nor Hamas in Gaza allowed Palestinians to elect their government.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49420217]Yes one side has a terrorist group. I guess that makes the actions of Israel okay when they also do damage regularly to civilians? No, you could just do the reasonable thing here and admit that backing either side is wrong. There is context that created Hamas. It is not a good thing Hamas exists, but there is a reason it does. Both sides are bad. Acting like one is "Less bad" is kinda dumb when in reality, both sides are really only hurting civillians who want a normal life. Hamas has such an easy time recruiting because of how heavy handed Israel is in that region. I mean sure, you can say "one sides the actual bad guys" but that's utterly meaningless in my opinion because it forgets the context of the region when discussing it.[/QUOTE] Here's the thing though, is that the Israelis don't aim to actively go out and just rack up civilians casualty counts, they take as many precautions as they can to avoid it. Israel's actions are by and large defensive and or reactionary, Everything Israel as a national entity (not angry citizens) has done is in direct response to attacks against themselves. If Hamas, Gaza's ruling government, had the power, they could, and would, kill every Jewish person in Israel for no legitimate reason. Israel has the power to do the equivalent to Gaza, but all they've done is try to choke supplies used by Hamas to attack israel, and destroy rockets/weapon caches and rocket launching sites. The two are not a comparable evil, Israel's intent as a nation is not to kill civilians, the same can not be said of the other side.
[QUOTE=soulharvester;49420650] If Hamas, Gaza's ruling government, had the power, they could, and would, kill every Jewish person in Israel for no legitimate reason. Israel has the power to do the equivalent to Gaza, but all they've done is try to choke supplies used by Hamas to attack israel, and destroy rockets/weapon caches and rocket launching sites.[/QUOTE] No, Israel has been kicking Palestinians out of their homes, having their legal systems incredibly biased against Palestinians, and doing some other pretty dodgy stuff. They dont go all out against Palestine because it would look bad and they would lose the billions they receive in aid. Hamas ain't good, no terrorist group is. Israel is not some angel either. Playing the game of "who is worse" is a pointless children's exercise that accomplishes nothing
[QUOTE=da space core;49420719] Hamas ain't good, no terrorist group is. Israel is not some angel either. Playing the game of "who is worse" is a pointless children's exercise that accomplishes nothing[/QUOTE] But pointing this out causes the people with vested interests in either side to stop listening and start repeating their mantra. [editline]30th December 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=soulharvester;49420650]Here's the thing though, is that the Israelis don't aim to actively go out and just rack up civilians casualty counts, they take as many precautions as they can to avoid it. Israel's actions are by and large defensive and or reactionary, Everything Israel as a national entity (not angry citizens) has done is in direct response to attacks against themselves. If Hamas, Gaza's ruling government, had the power, they could, and would, kill every Jewish person in Israel for no legitimate reason. Israel has the power to do the equivalent to Gaza, but all they've done is try to choke supplies used by Hamas to attack israel, and destroy rockets/weapon caches and rocket launching sites. The two are not a comparable evil, Israel's intent as a nation is not to kill civilians, the same can not be said of the other side.[/QUOTE] You generalize one side, and white wash the other. You [B]NEED[/B] to stop treating this like a good guy bad guy dichotomy. Otherwise you'll only look at it like a child would.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49420749]But pointing this out causes the people with vested interests in either side to stop listening and start repeating their mantra.[/QUOTE] Sorry, but seeing the world as a morally indifferent mush is useless. You need to pick sides at some point, and the side we should pick should be Israel's. Noone is claiming Israel has not done any wrong in the conflict - far from it. I don't seek to minimise the crimes that Israel has committed. But the fact that you find it difficult to decide whether a terror group that seeks to maximise civilian casualties and calls for the destruction of the Israeli state is worse than an imperfect (that yes, has killed civilians and has certainly done wrong, and has a dark side to its far right as we saw earlier this month) democratic state that quite frankly would be the only place in the region that you would be willing to live in shows me that you would be incapable of making any decisions about genuinely morally challenging conflicts.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;49420768]Sorry, but seeing the world as a morally indifferent mush is useless. You need to pick sides at some point, and the side we should pick should be Israel's. Noone is claiming Israel has not done any wrong in the conflict - far from it. I don't seek to minimise the crimes that Israel has committed. But the fact that you find it difficult to decide whether a terror group that seeks to maximise civilian casualties and calls for the destruction of the Israeli state is worse than an imperfect democratic state that quite frankly would be the only place in the region that you would be willing to live in shows me that you would be incapable of making any decisions about genuinely morally challenging conflicts.[/QUOTE] I find it hard to toss a side any large group of people and condemn them for their ragtag government actions in 2 decades of extreme turmoil that you and I literally can't imagine. I find it very hard to toss them aside. You don't. Don't act like you're the bigger, better, more moral person for your stance. You are not.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49420772]I find it hard to toss a side any large group of people and condemn them for their ragtag government actions in 2 decades of extreme turmoil that you and I literally can't imagine. I find it very hard to toss them aside. You don't. Don't act like you're the bigger, better, more moral person for your stance. You are not.[/QUOTE] I am a bigger, better person for my stance. Seeing the world as a stew of equal evils is a completely useless stance to take. At some point, decisions need to be made and sides need to be taken.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;49420789]I am a bigger, better person for my stance. Seeing the world as a stew of equal evils is a completely useless stance to take. At some point, decisions need to be made and sides need to be taken.[/QUOTE] Not really.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;49420789]I am a bigger, better person for my stance. Seeing the world as a stew of equal evils is a completely useless stance to take. At some point, decisions need to be made and sides need to be taken.[/QUOTE] Okay big guy, nice to know you have such surety and lack the capacity for critical self doubt, but cool. You entirely misinterpreted my point anyways to make this an argument about moral greyness, but whatever. What I am saying, and intended to say is to simply say "Isreal is the good guy" is fucking idiotic. Full out, you're a bigger, albeit, wrong, person as far as I am concerned. There doesn't have to be a good guy for us to make a decision on who to help. You don't need to create a villain. You're a child if you can't see that both sides have committed wrongs, and that both sides are not hero's. It's not that the world is a moral grey mush, it's that picking a side can deafen you to the reality that the situation isn't cut and dry.
[QUOTE=Mingebox;49420797]Not really.[/QUOTE] What are you gaining from keeping the pretence that all sides have to be equally bad because both have done bad things? In virtually all conflicts the 'good' side has done bad things. In the Second World War, the Allies carpet bombed civilians and dropped nuclear bombs, but it didn't make the Axis right. In the Cold War, the US supported nasty regimes and the CIA backed anti-democratic coups but it didn't make the Soviet Union right. Having moral clarity is important when making decisions. Of course, it is important to examine your own and your allies actions critically and to improve on things that have been done wrong, but ultimately that is a secondary issue.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49420811]You're a child if you can't see that both sides have committed wrongs, and that both sides are not hero's. It's not that the world is a moral grey mush, it's that picking a side can deafen you to the reality that the situation isn't cut and dry.[/QUOTE] You're the one acting Childish. No one here is claiming that Israel is devoid of evil and wrong doing. However I would argue that most of that is the inherent result of the conflict they're being forced to fight for their right to simply fucking exist. That's what's at stake for them, their fucking existence. If you had your way, I'm sure you'd cut as much support as possible to Israel as you possibly could, thinking that you're doing the right thing by not supporting someone you perceive as evil-doers. I find it hard to blame Israelis for feeling defensive or slightly racist and the article above should demonstrate perfectly fine why that might be justified for their own safety in some circumstances. Here's a fun way to look at it: How many Jews live in Gaza? [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Israel]How many Muslims live in Israel?[/url] I personally have a deep respect for Israel simply due to the restraint they as a nation have shown against a group of people who elected a government that's primary platform is wanting to kill Israelis over religious differences. I can't take you seriously when you try to equalize both sides of this conflict when one side is so clearly the aggressor attempting to kill everyone of a different faith and the other is literally just punching back enough to ensure their own existence.
if you think hamas and israel are one of the same in terms of bad-guy levels you are hilariously uninformed no, displacement of homes is not a legitimate reason to grab a knife and stab the nearest jewish looking person you see. stabbing and murdering innocent people for al-aqsa is not fucking okay by any measure of international law. and don't try to spin the occupation of territory as being the same as murder. both are illegal, but the comparison is literally between thievery and murder and there is a huge difference both morally and legally. again people take this dumb on the fence position (both sides are equally evil!). it's disingenuous. and it's important to understand that while comparisons of who is "badder" are dumb, they are vital to establish who is actually fueling this conflict and the only entity that actively does it is hamas. if hamas is destroyed, the war will be over. there is literally no other way around this fact.
I am not defending hamas. Saying they're both wrong isn't defending either one. I feel bad for the civilians caught up in it and you're just arguing about what ethnic group from what country is more evil when factually speaking both have committed atrocities.
[QUOTE=Melnek;49420972]if hamas is destroyed, the war will be over. there is literally no other way around this fact.[/QUOTE]I won't disagree with you here, but even if that happened it still wouldn't stop [I]your[/I] country doing bad things. "Jewish settlers" are complete shitheads that you guys should be rounding up and throwing into prison, period. Hamas does actively prolong the conflict yeah, but fucking Israel sure as hell makes it easy for them to justify it. So no, really, it isn't a dumb position to be in the middle and say "you're both assholes" because it's absolutely true.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49421111]I am not defending hamas. Saying they're both wrong isn't defending either one. I feel bad for the civilians caught up in it and you're just arguing about what ethnic group from what country is more evil when factually speaking both have committed atrocities.[/QUOTE] You're very good at saying a lot of nothing, congratulations. What you're doing is trying to say that they are both equivalent in terms of how "wrong" or "bad" they are, which is just flat out insulting. No country on the planet hasn't done something wrong, that doesn't make North Korea and South Korea Equally "wrong".
[QUOTE=soulharvester;49421129]You're very good at saying a lot of nothing, congratulations. What you're doing is trying to say that they are both equivalent in terms of how "wrong" or "bad" they are, which is just flat out insulting. No country on the planet hasn't done something wrong, that doesn't make North Korea and South Korea Equally "wrong".[/QUOTE] The actions of their government have directly been antagonistic towards the people of paletstine. You cannot dispute that. You cannot dispute that Israel's attitude has not helped, and has not made things better. Yes Hamas is at fault for a lot of things, but to say they're not both at fault in this mess is fucking wrong.
[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;49421121]I won't disagree with you here, but even if that happened it still wouldn't stop [I]your[/I] country doing bad things. "Jewish settlers" are complete shitheads that you guys should be rounding up and throwing into prison, period. Hamas does actively prolong the conflict yeah, but fucking Israel sure as hell makes it easy for them to justify it. So no, really, it isn't a dumb position to be in the middle and say "you're both assholes" because it's absolutely true.[/QUOTE] You know, I imagine the easiest solution to this is support Israel and then work out the niggling details about which Israeli deserves a harder slap than others. Because this current policy of just throwing your nose up in the air and saying "well [I]both[/I] sides are bad" does nothing but continue the conflict.
[QUOTE=Canuhearme?;49421156]You know, I imagine the easiest solution to this is support Israel and then work out the niggling details about which Israeli deserves a harder slap than others. Because this current policy of just throwing your nose up in the air and saying "well [I]both[/I] sides are bad" does nothing but continue the conflict.[/QUOTE] Sure I support Israel more than I support Hamas but acting, and ignoring, the things Israel has done with a fully fledged government behind it is wrong. Apparently acknowledging that both sides are bad is wrong to you people because somehow you believe in life, there really is a "Good guy".
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