• Luftwaffe Ace and Knight’s Cross Holder Walter Schuck passed away.
    49 replies, posted
[t]http://i2.wp.com/www.argunners.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/SchuckCollage.jpg?resize=728%2C334[/t] [quote] On 10 April 1945 Walter Schuck claimed four B-17 Flying Fortresses shot down. One of the bombers was “Henn’s Revenge” of the 303rd Bombardment Group, and another was “Moonlight Mission” of the 457th Bombardment Group. Shortly afterwards, his Me 262 was hit by a P-51 Mustang of the fighter escort, piloted by Lt. Joseph Anthony Peterburs of the 55th Fighter Squadron, 20th Fighter Group, causing Schuck to bail out. Schuck sprained both ankles upon landing and the war ended before he recovered. In 2005 Schuck met Peterburs in person during a visit to the US. They both became close friends. [t]http://i1.wp.com/www.argunners.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/IMG_2687.jpg?resize=728%2C604[/t] Former Oberleutnant of the Luftwaffe, later Hauptmann a.D., and Knight’s Cross of the Iron Cross with Oak Leaves Holder Walter Schuck has died at 94 years of age on 28 March 2015. Walter Schuck was born on 30 July 1920 in Frankenholz. He was a German World War II fighter ace who served in the Luftwaffe from 1937 until the end of World War II. He claimed 206 enemy aircraft shot down in over 500 combat missions, eight of which while flying the Messerschmitt Me 262 jet fighter. [t]http://i0.wp.com/www.argunners.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/IMG_2684.jpg?resize=728%2C319[/t] [/quote] Source: [url]http://www.argunners.com/luftwaffe-ace-knights-cross-holder-walter-schuck-passed-away/[/url]
That is one badass right there for one thing. Kinda weird how soldiers who are enemies in war can become friends after it so easily. Though, it kinda bugs me how long until we lose all of our veterans of WW2.
I feel like I shouldn't like him because he was in the Luftwaffe, then I realize he was still a badass. Some people will be angry at him because of his affiliation in the war, but eh, he had no choice. edit: I'm not judging him and he probably wasn't a Nazi. Can you stop quoting me just to refute me?
[QUOTE=PaperBurrito;47463169]I feel like I shouldn't like him because he was in the Luftwaffe, then I realize he was still a badass. Some people will be angry at him because of his affiliation in the war, but eh, he had no choice.[/QUOTE] Heroism and courage are still heroism and courage, no need to examine and stake claims on who is good and who is evil. Especially true when it comes to the actions of German servicemen during the Second World War. He deserves recognition for his accomplishments as much as Otto Carius, Michael Wittmann, Kurt Meyer, Emil Durr, Erich Topp, and all the rest do.
[QUOTE=PaperBurrito;47463169]I feel like I shouldn't like him because he was in the Luftwaffe, then I realize he was still a badass. Some people will be angry at him because of his affiliation in the war, but eh, he had no choice.[/QUOTE] Why is that? In his eyes, he was fighting for his country just the same way that Allied soldiers fought for theirs.
Huh. One of the first jet aces to ever fly, too. Quite a badass and likely a walking encyclopedia of history and technique still applicable to this day. He'll be missed. [QUOTE=Stopper;47463253]Why is that? In his eyes, he was fighting for his country just the same way that Allied soldiers fought for theirs.[/QUOTE] Yeah, exactly.[QUOTE=PaperBurrito;47463169]I feel like I shouldn't like him because he was in the Luftwaffe, then I realize he was still a badass. Some people will be angry at him because of his affiliation in the war, but eh, he had no choice.[/QUOTE] Just because his aircraft bore the Swastika on their tail does not mean he was a nazi. A HUGE chunk of the German armed forces were merely Germans fighting to try to salvage their homeland, and in a lot of cases their actual literal home. They weren't nazis and likely would have been livid if they knew of the atrocities their own government was committing. This pilot was doing just that. The bombers he was shooting at were quite literally threatening his home, along with the homes of everyone he's ever known in person.
[QUOTE=TestECull;47463295]Huh. One of the first jet aces to ever fly, too. Quite a badass and likely a walking encyclopedia of history and technique still applicable to this day. He'll be missed. Yeah, exactly. Just because his aircraft bore the Swastika on their tail does not mean he was a nazi. A HUGE chunk of the German armed forces were merely Germans fighting to try to salvage their literal homeland, they weren't nazis and likely would have been livid if they knew of the atrocities their own government was committing.[/QUOTE] Most of the Germans fighting during that war were mostly trying to return Germany to it's formal glory more than anything. Most of them barely had a clue of how terrible the Nazis were going to get later on. Kinda sad because once they found out, it was too late to do anything.
[QUOTE=Deathtrooper2;47463304]Most of the Germans fighting during that war were mostly trying to return Germany to it's formal glory more than anything. Most of them barely had a clue of how terrible the Nazis were going to get later on. Kinda sad because once they found out, it was too late to do anything.[/QUOTE] I have a feeling if the majority of the German army was, all at once, brought to the realization of what Hitler's government was doing they would have joined the allies and marched on the Reichstag themselves.
[QUOTE=TestECull;47463311]I have a feeling if the majority of the German army was, all at once, brought to the realization of what Hitler's government was doing they would have joined the allies and marched on the Reichstag themselves.[/QUOTE] Thats why i wish the US would've figured out the shit the Nazis did during WW2 sooner than by the close end of it. They could've just bombard Nazi Europe with leaflets and pictures of the atrocities in the death camps. Could of possibly caused some Germans to rethink about the nazis.
[QUOTE=TestECull;47463311]I have a feeling if the majority of the German army was, all at once, brought to the realization of what Hitler's government was doing they would have joined the allies and marched on the Reichstag themselves.[/QUOTE] There was a lot of mutiny, desertions, and general refusal to comply with orders as Wehrmacht and especially Kriegsmarine units came to terms with the severity of the Holocaust. Even for those units that went along with it, morale was through the floor. The Luftwaffe was largely composed of the officer class which itself was largely composed of loyal members of the Nazi party. The German political climate during WW2 is a fascinating topic of study. Germany would have had a solid chance at winning the war if not for the camps; Jews (and other victims) who were otherwise loyal to Germany would have comprised a fierce fighting force in their own right, and morale wouldn't have fallen so quickly as the secrets of the camps were leaked.
My Granddad traded his cross for a pack of cigarettes during the last days of nazi germany. He always said that he hated the idea of having a reward for taking people's lives around and he wasn't interested in military career. To him, military aviation was a way of escaping infantry service with the help of his ability as a civilian pilot.
[QUOTE=Deathtrooper2;47463330]Thats why i wish the US would've figured out the shit the Nazis did during WW2 sooner than by the close end of it. They could've just bombard Nazi Europe with leaflets and pictures of the atrocities in the death camps. Could of possibly caused some Germans to rethink about the nazis.[/QUOTE] Wouldn't have worked. They would have seen that the leaflets came out of Allied aircraft and assumed it was false propaganda spread by the enemy to try to demoralize them. If anything leaflet raids would have steeled their reserve and made them fight even harder. It would have had to come from within Germany, ideally someone really high up that wasn't afraid of the inevitable assassination by the rest of the government. [QUOTE=Grenadiac;47463399]There was a lot of mutiny, desertions, and general refusal to comply with orders as Wehrmacht and especially Kriegsmarine units came to terms with the severity of the Holocaust. Even for those units that went along with it, morale was through the floor. The Luftwaffe was largely composed of the officer class which itself was largely composed of loyal members of the Nazi party. The German political climate during WW2 is a fascinating topic of study. Germany would have had a solid chance at winning the war if not for the camps; Jews (and other victims) who were otherwise loyal to Germany would have comprised a fierce fighting force in their own right, and morale wouldn't have fallen so quickly as the secrets of the camps were leaked.[/QUOTE] I'm of firm belief that Hitler signed the Third Reich's death warrant the moment he ordered Operation Barbarossa to go ahead. Had he stayed out of the Soviet Union he may very well have had enough of an army to stalemate the war in Europe. He may not have had the entirety of the continent under his control by the end of the war, but he would have had the Swastika on the map. Alas, he marched east, which divided his forces and ensured his total downfall.
On the topic of leaflets: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cornflakes[/url] This one goes into more detail: [url]http://www.psywarrior.com/Cornflakes2.html[/url] A good read if this sort of thing interests you.
[QUOTE=TestECull;47463311]I have a feeling if the majority of the German army was, all at once, brought to the realization of what Hitler's government was doing they would have joined the allies and marched on the Reichstag themselves.[/QUOTE] IIRC several German POWs volunteered to join the fight against Japan after hearing about the Holocaust.
[QUOTE=Deathtrooper2;47463135]That is one badass right there for one thing. Kinda weird how soldiers who are enemies in war can become friends after it so easily. Though, it kinda bugs me how long until we lose all of our veterans of WW2.[/QUOTE] Not very long. Biologically speaking the longest a human can survive without turning into a vegetable is about 120 years. Assuming the youngest conscripts were 16 when the war began, they would be 93 years old. It's safe to assume that they're gonna be around for 25 years at the very, very most.
[QUOTE=Govna;47463248]Heroism and courage are still heroism and courage, no need to examine and stake claims on who is good and who is evil. Especially true when it comes to the actions of German servicemen during the Second World War. He deserves recognition for his accomplishments as much as Otto Carius, Michael Wittmann, Kurt Meyer, Emil Durr, Erich Topp, and all the rest do.[/QUOTE] My sentiment exactly. Bravery is bravery no matter who.
[QUOTE=TestECull;47463542]Wouldn't have worked. They would have seen that the leaflets came out of Allied aircraft and assumed it was false propaganda spread by the enemy to try to demoralize them. If anything leaflet raids would have steeled their reserve and made them fight even harder. It would have had to come from within Germany, ideally someone really high up that wasn't afraid of the inevitable assassination by the rest of the government. I'm of firm belief that Hitler signed the Third Reich's death warrant the moment he ordered Operation Barbarossa to go ahead. Had he stayed out of the Soviet Union he may very well have had enough of an army to stalemate the war in Europe. He may not have had the entirety of the continent under his control by the end of the war, but he would have had the Swastika on the map. Alas, he marched east, which divided his forces and ensured his total downfall.[/QUOTE] People always say this but it's a bit of a useless point. Hitler's ideology guaranteed that Germany would fight the Russians at some point or another.
I sometimes wonder what it must have been like to fly against the US in the closing days of the war. To know you were fighting against a massive force with limitless resources that could field formations of hundreds of planes against you. To watch the people in your squadron get younger and younger as all your experienced friends get killed and it gets harder and harder to find replacements. Flying difficult and untested planes that could kill you before you even made contact with the enemy. I imagine it must have been terrifying to be in that situation. To know that the war was hopeless, but to still get sent into the meat grinder against an overwhelmingly powerful enemy. Scared to die, scared of whether their loved ones would be at the mercy of Russian or American invaders, scared of what your own increasingly desperate and unhinged leaders would order you to do next. It must have been very difficult to keep going, even for an extremely skilled and experienced pilot like him.
[QUOTE=TestECull;47463542]I'm of firm belief that Hitler signed the Third Reich's death warrant the moment he ordered Operation Barbarossa to go ahead. Had he stayed out of the Soviet Union he may very well have had enough of an army to stalemate the war in Europe. He may not have had the entirety of the continent under his control by the end of the war, but he would have had the Swastika on the map. Alas, he marched east, which divided his forces and ensured his total downfall.[/QUOTE] Honestly, the Germans hands were tied at that point. The Russians were going to invade Germany eventually, it was evident, and both sides were expecting the attack at any moment. When Germany invaded, the Soviet Union was in disarray and their gains are a good sign of that. If he held off, the Russians would probably have just ended up invading when they were even stronger and the Germans were even weaker.
[QUOTE=TestECull;47463542]Wouldn't have worked. They would have seen that the leaflets came out of Allied aircraft and assumed it was false propaganda spread by the enemy to try to demoralize them. If anything leaflet raids would have steeled their reserve and made them fight even harder. It would have had to come from within Germany, ideally someone really high up that wasn't afraid of the inevitable assassination by the rest of the government. I'm of firm belief that Hitler signed the Third Reich's death warrant the moment he ordered Operation Barbarossa to go ahead. Had he stayed out of the Soviet Union he may very well have had enough of an army to stalemate the war in Europe. He may not have had the entirety of the continent under his control by the end of the war, but he would have had the Swastika on the map. Alas, he marched east, which divided his forces and ensured his total downfall.[/QUOTE] The Germans would have beaten the Soviets if Hitler wasn't a complete and utter moron about taking command of the army. His insistence on Static defences , no retreat, sacking of experienced German officers and full control of army operations down to the very little of details marked the downfall. At least Stalin banning Communist party members from interfering in military operations and decentralisation of the Soviet air force (so that the air force could react to requests from ground forces easily) put the Soviets on the right track. Not to say Stalin wasn't exactly competent (he took control of the army similar to Hitler in the final stages of the war, made Generals compete with each other to get to Berlin first causing the deaths of countless numbers of Soviet lives). Oh and the lack of logistical planning for Russian winter wasn't very smart.
[QUOTE=AWarGuy;47464954]The Germans would have beaten the Soviets if Hitler wasn't a complete and utter moron about taking command of the army. His insistence on Static defences , no retreat, sacking of experienced German officers and full control of army operations down to the very little of details marked the downfall. At least Stalin banning Communist party members from interfering in military operations and decentralisation of the Soviet air force (so that the air force could react to requests from ground forces easily) put the Soviets on the right track. Not to say Stalin wasn't exactly competent (he took control of the army similar to Hitler in the final stages of the war, made Generals compete with each other to get to Berlin first causing the deaths of countless numbers of Soviet lives). Oh and the lack of logistical planning for Russian winter wasn't very smart.[/QUOTE] If he didn't take complete control lack of resource, other big egos, unrealistic goals, do and then plan, infighting and probably more would have caused the defeat anyway. His obsession was more icing on the take of failure then the main reason.
[QUOTE=AWarGuy;47464954]The Germans would have beaten the Soviets if Hitler wasn't a complete and utter moron about taking command of the army. His insistence on Static defences , no retreat, sacking of experienced German officers and full control of army operations down to the very little of details marked the downfall. At least Stalin banning Communist party members from interfering in military operations and decentralisation of the Soviet air force (so that the air force could react to requests from ground forces easily) put the Soviets on the right track. Not to say Stalin wasn't exactly competent (he took control of the army similar to Hitler in the final stages of the war, made Generals compete with each other to get to Berlin first causing the deaths of countless numbers of Soviet lives). Oh and the lack of logistical planning for Russian winter wasn't very smart.[/QUOTE] Nop, it was absolutely impossible for Germans to win on the Russian front under any scenario. The problem is a logistical and numerical one. The soviets at the onset of Barbarossa were already matching the Wehrmacht in numbers and Intelligence gave them the upper hand, as virtually any kind of left wing person helped in one way or another Stalinist parties all over Europe, feeding them information on virtually every movement and decision the Germans took. I cant remember it 100%, but I recall reading somewhere that a warning was sent to Stalin telling him of a inminent Nazi invasion, and as he ignored the order and sent the last train of supplies as per the Ribbentrop-Molotv pact, the Wehrmacht crossed Poland into Russia. Besides, most of the Wehrmacht at that time (1941) moved around in horses and carriages. The numbers are on the internets, but if I'm not mistaken, circa 80-90% moved around in horses/foot. The advance made possible by tanks plus Stukas was futile in the end as infantry had to move around in horses and on foot. And so did supplies, which taking into account the extension of the eastern front, which was depth and also wide with a crapton of rivers, made things even more difficult. Soviets on the other hand already knew the terrain, were familiar with the climatical conditions, were prepared to fight in that terrain and moved their industries back to the Urals, keeping them safe from any kind of aerial attack. If you look at the numbers, as the Germans mechanized most of its infantry, the Soviets had already WAY more equipment. To top it off, you got all that US help with food, tools, machines, weapons, tanks, coming in. Point is: Invaded Russia, sooner or the later the Russians would reorganize and crush everything in their way. Though, we can't know for sure if had Typhoon been a success, would Stalin be dead or captured, as it's quite hard to imagine a scenario where he fled the city. It would lower even more the morale rather than hearing him being killed. If they had made the right decisions, the post Cold War scenario would have been totally different.
[QUOTE=PaperBurrito;47463169]I feel like I shouldn't like him because he was in the Luftwaffe, then I realize he was still a badass. Some people will be angry at him because of his affiliation in the war, but eh, he had no choice. edit: I'm not judging him and he probably wasn't a Nazi. Can you stop quoting me just to refute me?[/QUOTE] If you actually read about the lufftwaffe, you'd find that the air force had a unique relationship with other enemie airforces unlike the troops on the ground. I remember reading somewhere that it was frowned upon to shoot down enemy aircraft if they were fleeing or badly hit out of sympathy, some lufftwaffe pilots also escorted injured enemy aircraft safely out of enemy lines just out of care and consideration. They mostly done this due to the fact that all airmen during the war led very similar lives as pilots, either being farmers or civilian pilots.
[QUOTE=Deathtrooper2;47463304]Most of the Germans fighting during that war were mostly trying to return Germany to it's formal glory more than anything. Most of them barely had a clue of how terrible the Nazis were going to get later on. Kinda sad because once they found out, it was too late to do anything.[/QUOTE] Not true. Rumors circulated for years about what the rear-echelon SS troops were doing to civilian minorities and prisoners, and Wehrmacht troops were offered extra pay if they participated in mass-killings. The whole idea that Wehrmacht troops were completely oblivious to what the Gestapo was doing is a complete myth. In fact the commander of AOK17 in the Crimea was actually trading supplies with the leader of Einsaztgruppen forces in the Crimea. He would lend him vehicles and rear troops in exchange for winter clothing taken off dead Jews, communists and Slavs during mass executions. With that said, many men in the Wehrmacht dismissed the rumors and when many did see the mass executions occurring right in front of them, nobody did anything because they didn't have a choice. Them intervening meant their death and possibly the death of their loved ones. In the waning days of the war you did have men who fought it, like what happened at Schloss Itter in Austria a few days after Hitler killed himself, right before the war ended. [editline]6th April 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=AWarGuy;47464954]The Germans would have beaten the Soviets if Hitler wasn't a complete and utter moron about taking command of the army. His insistence on Static defences , no retreat, sacking of experienced German officers and full control of army operations down to the very little of details marked the downfall. At least Stalin banning Communist party members from interfering in military operations and decentralisation of the Soviet air force (so that the air force could react to requests from ground forces easily) put the Soviets on the right track. Not to say Stalin wasn't exactly competent (he took control of the army similar to Hitler in the final stages of the war, made Generals compete with each other to get to Berlin first causing the deaths of countless numbers of Soviet lives). Oh and the lack of logistical planning for Russian winter wasn't very smart.[/QUOTE] Not true. Russia wasn't conquerable for a 1941 era Germany. Germany had the advantage over Russia during 1941 because they had 3 years of experience under their belt. They excelled in Maneuver Warfare and were able to rush in and defeat entire Russian armies and take millions of prisoners. But since they weren't able to take Moscow in the first few months, they had already lost the war. Part of what made Germany so formidable was their extremely experienced and well trained infantry leaders. Squad leaders and Company Commanders who knew how and where to direct troops. After 1943, a good chunk of these men were either killed off, wounded and couldn't serve, or sent to training schools. Replacements were few and weren't well trained, and were made casualties of more and more rapidly. Germany lost it's experienced commanders and in turn lost the war. No amount of Stukas or King Tigers could have turned the tides at that point. It wouldn't have mattered if Hitler were sacked or never had any control in the first place. [editline]6th April 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Used Car Salesman;47464407]I sometimes wonder what it must have been like to fly against the US in the closing days of the war. To know you were fighting against a massive force with limitless resources that could field formations of hundreds of planes against you. To watch the people in your squadron get younger and younger as all your experienced friends get killed and it gets harder and harder to find replacements. Flying difficult and untested planes that could kill you before you even made contact with the enemy. I imagine it must have been terrifying to be in that situation. To know that the war was hopeless, but to still get sent into the meat grinder against an overwhelmingly powerful enemy. Scared to die, scared of whether their loved ones would be at the mercy of Russian or American invaders, scared of what your own increasingly desperate and unhinged leaders would order you to do next. It must have been very difficult to keep going, even for an extremely skilled and experienced pilot like him.[/QUOTE] Read "The First, and the Last." by Adolf Galland.
And not one word in german newspapers... Is it sad I have to get this information through foreign sources?
[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;47465180]Nop, it was absolutely impossible for Germans to win on the Russian front under any scenario. [b]The problem is a logistical and numerical one. The soviets at the onset of Barbarossa were already matching the Wehrmacht in numbers and Intelligence gave them the upper hand, as virtually any kind of left wing person helped in one way or another Stalinist parties all over Europe, feeding them information on virtually every movement and decision the Germans took.[/b] [b]Besides, most of the Wehrmacht at that time (1941) moved around in horses and carriages. The numbers are on the internets, but if I'm not mistaken, circa 80-90% moved around in horses/foot. The advance made possible by tanks plus Stukas was futile in the end as infantry had to move around in horses and on foot.[/b] [/QUOTE] Two excellent points and I agree that the logistics of an invasion of Russia is very difficult the Germans managed well until late 1941 (to an extent). They were fucked by mid 1942 (no planning of winter clothing for the Germans as they firmly believed Blitzkreig tactics would work with Russia and knock them out early). [QUOTE=SeppLainer;47465483] Part of what made Germany so formidable was their extremely experienced and well trained infantry leaders. [b]Squad leaders and Company Commanders who knew how and where to direct troops. After 1943, a good chunk of these men were either killed off, wounded and couldn't serve, or sent to training schools[/b].[/QUOTE] Yes because the chunk of troops killed or captured because Hitler insisted no retreat, no breakthroughs and rely on static defenses to hold the ground (see Stalingrad, 6th Army could have broken out on the very initial encirclement of Stalingrad) . Also new formed divisions on the Eastern front (mainly fanatically loyal SS divisions) were prioritised over existing Veteran divisions with new equipment and reinforcements, again on Hitler's orders. From 1943 onwards there is a consistent pattern that highlighted encirclement of divisions and not being allowed to retreat, thus encircled and destroyed. Elastic defence suited the Eastern front, but again Hitler insisted on not giving away any ground and stick to static defences, the mindset of Western Front WW1.
[QUOTE=TestECull;47463311]I have a feeling if the majority of the German army was, all at once, brought to the realization of what Hitler's government was doing they would have joined the allies and marched on the Reichstag themselves.[/QUOTE] Nope, never. All soldiers swore a personal oath to Adolf Hitler.
[QUOTE=Impact1986;47466505]And not one word in german newspapers... Is it sad I have to get this information through foreign sources?[/QUOTE] Yes, he would be a "Nazi" just like Otto Carius which is ridiculous. They inform you just about things which would bring up the hate against Nazis, for example to bring old prison guards up before court. Don't understand me wrong, they should do that but they just show one side of the coin and that is unacceptable. It really sounds stereotypic but it is. Germany can't speak or write about soldiers who served during World War II under the swastika even if they were just normal people who had to or get shot for desertion.
[QUOTE=Jame's;47466748]Nope, never. All soldiers swore a personal oath to Adolf Hitler.[/QUOTE] Those were just words. The fact that the soldiers swore an oath to Hitler doesn't mean that they did follow it.
[QUOTE=!Xirteg!;47467087]Yes, he would be a "Nazi" just like Otto Carius which is ridiculous. They inform you just about things which would bring up the hate against Nazis, for example to bring old prison guards up before court. Don't understand me wrong, they should do that but they just show one side of the coin and that is unacceptable. It really sounds stereotypic but it is. Germany can't speak or write about soldiers who served during World War II under the swastika even if they were just normal people who had to or get shot for desertion.[/QUOTE] That's just awful. Last year I read "A Higher Call" which was about one of the pilots in Adolf Galland's unit. Most of the men who made up the Luftwaffe in the early years of the war, were not actually Nazi Party Members. I remember at one point, the German Pilot recalled that members of the Nazi Party who were in the Luftwaffe were looked down on. From what I've read, it seems like there was still a code of honor followed by the air forces in World War II. Pilots considered it a war crime to shoot at a man in a parachute that bailed out of his plane. I'm going to visit an assisted living home down the road from campus to talk to some WWII veterans, while there are some still alive. I hope the German Government acknowledges the sacrifices by many of their elders who simply tried to survive the war without committing atrocities while they are still living and cut the "OMG A NAZI!" sensationalism that they have been doing.
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