• Trump doubles down on "both sides to blame" in Charlottesville
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[QUOTE=Sonic4Ever;52579659]Why are Americans debating whether neoNazis were armed or evil They are self proclaimed Nazis Decades ago your country fought alongside the rest of the world to end their abominations - but now a large portion of citizens is defending them?![/QUOTE] Because upholding the rule of law blindly is a good thing. It puts you above 3rd world countries run by regimes. Everyone is equal under the eyes of the law and that means everyone. I'm sort of arguing against a ghost cause I know it's not specifically the people in this thread, I'm 101% for peaceful counter protests and demonstrations, I'm just addressing the attitudes I see on Twitter like "fuck yeah punch Nazis, attack them, fight them." And then Nazi gets extended to "alt right" (whatever that meaningless label even means) and then alt right gets extended to those who share an opposite opinion to me, like free speech at Berkeley for example. And even if you think what I just said is a stretch, okay, leave it at neo Nazis, I still don't approve of violence in the streets.Those people are toxic and contribute to exactly what they claim to fight against. Political violence begets political violence and for opening that can of worms shame on you.
We're not upholding the rule of law, however. The 'rule of law' should state that Neo-Nazis are at the very least a criminal organization and more likely a domestic terrorist organization and that they are constantly using 'Fighting Words' that are exempt from 1st Amendment protections. In either case, the FBI should be on top of these events and should be investigating and removing anyone who means to do actual harm, as it is their manifesto to do great deals of harm.
[QUOTE=Firgof Umbra;52579698]We're not upholding the rule of law, however. The 'rule of law' should state that Neo-Nazis are at the very least a criminal organization and more likely a domestic terrorist organization. In either case, the FBI should be on top of these events and should be investigating and removing anyone who means to do actual harm, as it is their manifesto to do great deals of harm.[/QUOTE] If they act criminal and commit/plot terrorist acts, sure. And it's always been that way, it's not like the FBI isn't on top of that shit. Aryan brotherhood rings a bell. If it's just their opinion and there's no criminality tied to it, it's just their stupid fucking opinion simple as that and I think the supreme court has ruled that at one point or another too.
[QUOTE=Firgof Umbra;52579698]We're not upholding the rule of law, however. The 'rule of law' should state that Neo-Nazis are at the very least a criminal organization and more likely a domestic terrorist organization. In either case, the FBI should be on top of these events and should be investigating and removing anyone who means to do actual harm, as it is their manifesto to do great deals of harm.[/QUOTE] Criminals committing crimes in order to change the law to make what they do not a crime and make living a crime for others.
[QUOTE=Lambeth;52579535]Alt-right is a self identifying label that Richard Spencer came up. Alt-left is exclusively a pejorative to insult leftists,[/QUOTE] I could have sworn I've seen alt-left used to refer to Bernie Sanders supporters. You know, leftists on the American spectrum, but not aligned with the traditional left and instead supporting an alternative wing of the left. Might be wrong, though.
[quote]If they act criminal and commit/plot terrorist acts, sure.[/quote] They are far worse than the Aryan brotherhood and they do commit/plot terrorist acts such as: The genocide of entire batches of people and overthrowing the US Government. However, the FBI's priorities are somewhat controlled by the President and he's made it clear that the Nazis are not a priority. He still chooses to treat this organization as 'political'.
[QUOTE=Riller;52579714]I could have sworn I've seen alt-left used to refer to Bernie Sanders supporters. You know, leftists on the American spectrum, but not aligned with the traditional left and instead supporting an alternative wing of the left. Might be wrong, though.[/QUOTE] The terms are so wishy washy anyway, but I'd consider the "alt left" this new wave of neo Marxists.
[quote]but I'd consider the "alt left" this new wave of neo Marxists.[/quote] The 'alt left' is whatever the Alt-Right calls its opponents. It's easier to dehumanize and hate your opposition when you claim they are diametrically opposed to everything you stand for and thus your differences are irreconcilable. It also makes it easier to call them 'the real evil' or 'just as bad' and so on. It isn't surprising to hear those sorts of claims when they come out of the mouth of Nazis because they are a group built on 'identifying and exterminating the "Other" which is whoever is not exactly like them'.
[QUOTE=orcywoo6;52578318]All that's happened is some idiots swarmed a car and got run over, it was bound to happen. I would fucking panic too if a load of armed people came at my car.[/QUOTE] I can't believe he had to make up an alternate situation so he could feel like he was right.
[QUOTE=01271;52579766]I can't believe he had to make up an alternate situation so he could feel like he was right.[/QUOTE] Honestly some medals are deserved for the amount of mental gymnastics I've encountered the past couple days.
I'm just going to point out that "the alt left is just as violent" is not a good or persuasive argument. Even if the alt left was just as violent I'd still side with them over literal nazis. At least the "altleft" doesnt advocate an ideology that specifically calls for the death or prosecution of me and everyone like me. The fact of the matter is that even if both sides were equally violent the nazi's would still be far worse then the "altleft"ever could be.
[QUOTE=Aman;52579636]I think this whole tragedy just be boiled down to police failure. Maybe they werent expecting the chaos and crowd, but they utterly failed in their duty. Regardless of if the neo Nazis were somewhere they weren't supposed to be, and sure that's a contributor, I saw no police attempting to disperse the melees. They did eventually, but they were not vigilant or fast enough as they should have been. I never like the idea of a vigilant police state but this is an instance where that is helpful.[/QUOTE] It really seems so. According to ACLU the police were told to stand down. Seeing that I now think it's a repeat of Berkeley where the mayor told the police to use non intervening tactics. Maybe the mayor here is antifa sympathizing smash the fash type too. [Media]https://twitter.com/Barnes_Law/status/896520500339331076[/media]
[QUOTE=Omesh;52579929]It really seems so. According to ACLU the police were told to stand down. Seeing that I now think it's a repeat of Berkeley where the mayor told the police to use non intervening tactics. Maybe the mayor here is antifa sympathizing smash the fash type too. [Media]https://twitter.com/Barnes_Law/status/896520500339331076[/media][/QUOTE] What's the point in actively contributing to civil violence and disobedience? Very stupid. Contributor to a woman dying.
[QUOTE=Aman;52579953]What's the point in actively contributing to civil violence and disobedience? Very stupid. Contributor to a woman dying.[/QUOTE] Lets be clear here, the only one responsible for the woman dying is the bastard who ran her over.
[QUOTE=Riller;52579714]I could have sworn I've seen alt-left used to refer to Bernie Sanders supporters. You know, leftists on the American spectrum, but not aligned with the traditional left and instead supporting an alternative wing of the left. Might be wrong, though.[/QUOTE] I've only ever seen it as an insult. I've never seen a proud alt-left supporter. This isn't to say the far left doesn't exist but they're called marxists and antifa, call them by their name rather than insult them.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;52579960]Lets be clear here, the only one responsible for the woman dying is the bastard who ran her over.[/QUOTE] There's no way they don't know police not intervening will result in violence.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;52579960]Lets be clear here, the only one responsible for the woman dying is the bastard who ran her over.[/QUOTE] Responsible yes. Note how I said contributed. Would it still have happened if it wasn't mob rule brawls in the streets for hours?
[QUOTE=Aman;52580005]Responsible yes. Note how I said contributed. Would it still have happened if it wasn't mob rule brawls in the streets for hours?[/QUOTE] There is literally no scientific way of knowing that. Butterfly effect dude, change one thing about that day and nothing or anything could've happened different.
[QUOTE=MedicWine;52580011]There is literally no scientific way of knowing that. Butterfly effect dude, change one thing about that day and nothing or anything could've happened different.[/QUOTE] So you think police being told to stand down had zero effect on the outcome of injuries and 1 woman dying? Feel like this is more than just a what if butterfly effect. Mobs shouldn't have been allowed to fight to begin with.
[QUOTE=Omesh;52579996]There's no way they don't know police not intervening will result in violence.[/QUOTE] Police do nothing like people want: they still did things wrong. Police show up: they "escalated" things by being there
[QUOTE=Aman;52580015]So you think police being told to stand down had zero effect on the outcome of injuries and 1 woman dying? Feel like this is more than just a what if butterfly effect. Mobs shouldn't have been allowed to fight to begin with.[/QUOTE] I dunno what this has to do with a man purposely running over protesters. What would the police done? Shot the driver of a moving vehicle? Would they have stopped the protesters from gathering in the first place? That's against the right to assembly.
[QUOTE=Lambeth;52580025]I dunno what this has to do with a man purposely running over protesters. What would the police done? Shot the driver of a moving vehicle? Would they have stopped the protesters from gathering in the first place? That's against the right to assembly.[/QUOTE] I don't think this guy set out on his day planning on plowing through people, hence 2nd degree murder charges. Now I am playing what ifs, so it's not like you could know, but the car ramming was the climax of the whole chaotic brawl. If that brawl never occurred and groups were separated? And not like I'm apologizing for him. Of course he's an idiot who will be in prison no doubts about that.
[QUOTE=Aman;52580015]So you think police being told to stand down had zero effect on the outcome of injuries and 1 woman dying? Feel like this is more than just a what if butterfly effect. Mobs shouldn't have been allowed to fight to begin with.[/QUOTE] No I'm saying that you can't use "Would it still have happened if" statements in arguments because they are inherently unsolvable.
[QUOTE=Cinnamonbun;52579331] I don't remember people being mad at Obama[/QUOTE] Because they are apples and oranges. You might not be happy with Obama's comments but they aren't nearly as stupid as Trump's. Imagine if Obama had waited several days before commenting, then said that cops and cop killers were both responsible for the violence, then said cop killers were bad, then said that some cop killers were "good people peacefully protesting" police officers. That's why people are rightfully pissed at Trump. Because he can shittalk people on Twitter hours after they quit his jobs council but it takes him two days to realize that he should say Neo Nazis running people over with cars is bad, then turn around later and say they were good people because thats a big chunk of his steadily eroding support base. [editline]16th August 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Omesh;52579929]It really seems so. According to ACLU the police were told to stand down. Seeing that I now think it's a repeat of Berkeley where the mayor told the police to use non intervening tactics. Maybe the mayor here is antifa sympathizing smash the fash type too.[/QUOTE] Not intervening doesn't help Antifa. [editline]16th August 2017[/editline] The vast majority of the people counter-protesting weren't even Antifa.
[QUOTE=Raidyr;52580142] That's why people are rightfully pissed at Trump. Because he can shittalk people on Twitter hours after they quit his jobs council but it takes him two days to realize that he should say Neo Nazis running people over with cars is bad, then turn around later and say they were good people because thats a big chunk of his steadily eroding support base. [/QUOTE] A big chunk? Really? There was what, 300 neo Nazi losers there? And those weren't all local, some dumbies came all the way from Detroit and even Canada. Let's be generous and say there's some practicing diehard neo Nazis on the internet and multiple the number by 100. 3000 people? It's nothing. There were probably bigger neo Nazi amounts in the early 90s. I feel like white supremacists are such a damn red herring. They are utter nobodies in the grand scheme of things. They have no clout and never will.
[QUOTE=Cinnamonbun;52579331]I suppose from that I could definitely see why many people are angry, I personally don't have a problem with waiting to condemn something like this until he is completely briefed on the situation(Some politicians tend to have knee-jerk reactions to situations like this). So I can see why people would be angry at him for waiting 2 days when he usually immediately calls things out.[/QUOTE] What kind of briefing do you need to say that people running other people over in cars and Neo Nazis are both bad I can't even tell what you are saying here. You like that he waited, but can also understand why people are angry that he waited.
[QUOTE=Aman;52580164]A big chunk? Really? There was what, 300 neo Nazi losers there? And those weren't all local, some dumbies came all the way from Detroit and even Canada. Let's be generous and say there's some practicing diehard neo Nazis on the internet and multiple the number by 100. 3000 people? It's nothing. There were probably bigger neo Nazi amounts in the early 90s. I feel like white supremacists are such a damn red herring. They are utter nobodies in the grand scheme of things. They have no clout and never will.[/QUOTE] Hey aren't you the guy that argued that no one should care about this because only one person died You never told us how many deaths were enough for people to worry about NEONAZIS in modern america.
[quote=Aman]A big chunk? Really? There was what, 300 neo Nazi losers there? And those weren't all local, some dumbies came all the way from Detroit and even Canada. Let's be generous and say there's some practicing diehard neo Nazis on the internet and multiple the number by 100. 3000 people? It's nothing. There were probably bigger neo Nazi amounts in the early 90s.[/quote] Please show your math that justifies '100 * number of Neo Nazis that showed up at this one rally is generous'. You're literally making shit up and using it to go 'see, it's no big deal'. Let's be real: You don't want it to be real so you're trying to justify it not being real. Here's some more useful deductions: A lot of the people that were there were interstate - that means they had the time and money to travel that distance to attend said rally. Also, let's talk about distance: A lot of these folks do not all live in the same state or even the same group of states and so the distance to travel to said rally would be prohibitive except via airfare - which means they'd also have to get a hotel room and so on and so forth. Most people don't have the time to take that sort of trip and wouldn't be able to easily justify it to their friends and family besides. That means a significant number of people who would otherwise [I]like[/I] to attend were not able to. I think you're way way way off.
[QUOTE=Firgof Umbra;52580220]Please show your math that justifies '100 * number of Neo Nazis that showed up at this one rally is generous'.[/QUOTE] Random tv news claimed 300ish. Do you have number? How many do you think were there? How many bonified neo Nazis do you think are in the US?
[quote]Here's some more useful deductions: A lot of the people that were there were interstate - that means they had the time and money to travel that distance to attend said rally. Also, let's talk about distance: A lot of these folks do not all live in the same state or even the same group of states and so the distance to travel to said rally would be prohibitive except via airfare - which means they'd also have to get a hotel room and so on and so forth. Most people don't have the time to take that sort of trip and wouldn't be able to easily justify it to their friends and family besides. That means a significant number of people who would otherwise like to attend were not able to.[/quote] Far more than you're obviously comfortable with. Want to argue 'real group population numbers'? Let's compare the number of folks who'd like to attend a Sanders rally and average that out versus the folks that were actually able to make it. Getting to a rally is hard; it costs money, time, and energy - and it's especially hard whenever it would overlap with your work. Most folks simply don't have vacation or sick days to spend on trips across the country so obviously those that do show up are a low percentage of the folks who would enjoy showing up. Sometimes a very [I]very[/I] low percentage. And that's [I]before[/I] we apply the problem of 'you have to find some excuse to go to your 'FurSex Con' that doesn't get you weird or disapproving looks from your friends and family (except this is far more socially embarrassing and stigmatizing because you're going to a rally to call for the deaths of most of the people you know).' Edit: Also the problem of 'this wasn't scheduled weeks or months in advance' so you also have additional timing problems compounding it. Also not considering that these are the folks brave (or dumb/comfortable) enough to actually march and show their colors.
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