• Against Me! Singer Tom Gabel Comes Out As Transgender, Plans On Starting Hormone Treatments
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[QUOTE=thisispain;35905554]i'm gonna ignore the first part because you were just being a dick. to the second part, no byproducts of evolution would appear in every single chain leading up to the final species. this is a stupid conversation because we weren't talking about just sex. the person i was rebutting said that he wouldn't date same-sex people because we are "designed" to seek out a partner to reproduce and have sex with. but we aren't designed to do such a thing, our reproductive organs are simply the product of evolution and the method on which we produce more offspring. we are different from many animals in that humans fuck for recreation as well as reproduction, and you could easily argue that we evolved that ability seeing as many animals cannot have sex without reproducing due to the penis being forced to stay in during sex. simply put we aren't designed to do anything and getting into a big same-sex orgy is a-okay if you're into that.[/QUOTE]Some animals have sex for recreation too. Humans aren't unique little snow flakes.
I wonder - as a straight man - if I could fall in love with someone transgendered. Which really shakes the foundations of 'what is straight?' Hell I'm guessing I could probably fall in love with a man if they looked and sounded convincingly female enough.
[QUOTE=thisispain;35905479]they don't serve a purpose, they are the result of evolution and essentially what worked stayed while what didn't work died off.[/QUOTE] But they evolved to fit a purpose or improve on a previous one, that's the point. The purpose of the heart is to pump blood around the body, the purpose of legs is to move around efficiently, ect. 'Purposes' don't require a designer
[QUOTE=Atlascore;35905573]That's what evolution is, holy shit are you really that dense? Those things DO serve a purpose, they helped us survive and gain and advantage over other living things, it's why we're so intelligent and have thumbs, it's why we reproduce sexually, we gained these things through [B]evolution.[/B][/QUOTE] no not really plenty of things in the human body and DNA serve no function. i've taken college-level courses in biology, stop insulting me i'm not your child.
[QUOTE=thisispain;35905629]no not really plenty of things in the human body and DNA serve no function. i've taken college-level courses in biology, stop insulting me i'm not your child.[/QUOTE] But you said we're not and never were 'designed' for [b]anything[/b] Btw, what are we actually arguing here because i'm trying to go along with it but i'm just getting confused :v:
[QUOTE=RobbL;35905613]But they evolved to fit a purpose or improve on a previous one, that's the point. The purpose of the heart is to pump blood around the body, the purpose of legs is to move around efficiently, ect. 'Purposes' don't require a designer[/QUOTE] hindsight is 50/50. evolution doesn't fit purposes or improve upon on anything, it's simply the mechanic on which life continues on. evolution is the same mechanic that cancer operates on which doesn't improve or fit a purpose, it just kills you. [editline]10th May 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=RobbL;35905655]But you said we're not and never were 'designed' for [I]anything[/I] Btw, what are we actually arguing here because i'm trying to go along with it but i'm just getting confused :v:[/QUOTE] we're arguing here that evolution is a mechanic and any result, IE humans, is caused by aggregation rather than purpose or reasoning.
[QUOTE=thisispain;35905629]no not really plenty of things in the human body and DNA serve no function. i've taken college-level courses in biology, stop insulting me i'm not your child.[/QUOTE]Plenty of things? Okay that doesn't change the fact that our limbs and genitals serve a purpose. [editline]10th May 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=thisispain;35905658]hindsight is 50/50. evolution doesn't fit purposes or improve upon on anything, it's simply the mechanic on which life continues on. evolution is the same mechanic that cancer operates on which doesn't improve or fit a purpose, it just kills you.[/QUOTE]Maybe you should look up eyes, they basically started out as worthless and became one of the most important organs a living creature can have, through evolution over millions of years.
[QUOTE=RobbL;35905655] Btw, what are we actually arguing here because i'm trying to go along with it but i'm just getting confused :v:[/QUOTE] Ah, was it something to do with homosexuality, asexuality and transgenderism not being anomalous within humans because no lifeforms were meant to work in a certain way or something like that?
Good for him (soon to be her)
[QUOTE=Atlascore;35905694]Plenty of things? Okay that doesn't change the fact that our limbs and genitals serve a purpose. [editline]10th May 2012[/editline] Maybe you should look up eyes, they basically started out as worthless and became one of the most important organs a living creature can have, through evolution over millions of years.[/QUOTE] how are you missing his point he's making it pretty clear
[QUOTE=Atlascore;35905694]Plenty of things? Okay that doesn't change the fact that our limbs and genitals serve a purpose.[/QUOTE] no they have a function, there's a big semantic difference there. the limbs and genitals evolved first and then developed a function, if it didn't develop a function it would continue as a vestigial organ, like wings on flightless birds, and if it was detrimental to the survival of the animal the animal would die off.
Btw i'm trying really hard to think of this word that describes a harmonious system where each part serves a function that evolves from a completely random and chaotic set of meaningless rules or variables or something like that I think the term is used in computing as well as physical sciences
[QUOTE=Atlascore;35905694] Maybe you should look up eyes[/QUOTE] maybe you should stop being a dick and pretend like i don't know what eyes are [QUOTE=Atlascore;35905694]they basically started out as worthless and became one of the most important organs a living creature can have, through evolution over millions of years.[/QUOTE] and maybe you should look up the eye considering that's not really true, they didn't really start off as worthless.
[QUOTE=Atlascore;35905694]Plenty of things? Okay that doesn't change the fact that our limbs and genitals serve a purpose. [editline]10th May 2012[/editline] Maybe you should look up eyes, they basically started out as worthless and became one of the most important organs a living creature can have, through evolution over millions of years.[/QUOTE] They have a function, they don't serve a purpose.
[QUOTE=RobbL;35905771]Btw i'm trying really hard to think of this word that describes a harmonious system where each part serves a function that evolves from a completely random set of meaningless rules or something like that I think the term is used in computing as well as physical sciences[/QUOTE] well it's not harmonious and it's not each part, if you were to design a human body with the science and technology today (transhumanist porn) you'd probably do a lot of overhauls. i'd start with the appendix, running joke of the medical world.
[QUOTE=thisispain;35905777]and maybe you should look up the eye considering that's not really true, they didn't really start off as worthless.[/QUOTE]I said [i]basically[/i] worthless, the first types of eyes were incredibly weak and didn't even see properly compared to later types of eyes living things evolved.
[QUOTE=Boba_Fett;35904874]Personally, I find it repulsive.[/QUOTE] maybe you should get that checked. people all over the internet keep making posts like "I personally find it disgusting but it's their right to..." wrt to transsexuals and homosexuals and while it's nice and all that they're still trying to leave them be in a political sense that's also a really really crazy thing to be disgusted by. like it's yeah it's your personal belief, but your personal belief is [i]bananas[/i]
[QUOTE=thisispain;35905732]no they have a function, there's a big semantic difference there. the limbs and genitals evolved first and then developed a function[/QUOTE] That's not how evolution works... [QUOTE=thisispain;35905732]if it didn't develop a function it would continue as a vestigial organ, like wings on flightless birds[/QUOTE] Vestigial organs are 'leftovers', organs that once did have a function but became useless as the organism evolved It's not any creature in the past has just sprouted some random appendages that don't do anything
[QUOTE=mobrockers2;35905803]They have a function, they don't serve a purpose.[/QUOTE]They have a purpose, how well would a human survive ten thousand years ago if they lost their eyesight or limbs?
[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;35905859]maybe you should get that checked. people all over the internet keep making posts like "I personally find it disgusting but it's their right to..." wrt to transsexuals and homosexuals and while it's nice and all that they're still trying to leave them be in a political sense that's also a really really crazy thing to be disgusted by. like it's yeah it's your personal belief, but your personal belief is [i]bananas[/i][/QUOTE] everybody knows that statements are made unoffensive when prefaced with "in my opinion" or "personally" get with it dude
[QUOTE=thisispain;35905813]well it's not harmonious and it's not each part, if you were to design a human body with the science and technology today (transhumanist porn) you'd probably do a lot of overhauls. i'd start with the appendix, running joke of the medical world.[/QUOTE] The ecosystem is an example of one of these systems btw
[QUOTE=Atlascore;35905837]I said [i]basically[/i] worthless, the first types of eyes were incredibly weak and didn't even see properly compared to later types of eyes living things evolved.[/QUOTE] They still gave the species an advantage over species that didn't have eyes, thus they were not worthless.
[QUOTE=Atlascore;35905837]I said [i]basically[/i] worthless, the first types of eyes were incredibly weak and didn't even see properly compared to later types of eyes living things evolved.[/QUOTE] which was sufficient function for unicellular organisms.
[QUOTE=Atlascore;35905694]Plenty of things? Okay that doesn't change the fact that our limbs and genitals serve a purpose. [/QUOTE] no, they don't. they don't have a purpose in a teleological sense, they are the [i]result[/i] of millions of years of natural selection. that's all evolution is; a result. [editline]10th May 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Atlascore;35905874]They have a purpose, how well would a human survive ten thousand years ago if they lost their eyesight or limbs?[/QUOTE] purpose and function are two different things.
[QUOTE=Atlascore;35905874]They have a purpose, how well would a human survive ten thousand years ago if they lost their eyesight or limbs?[/QUOTE] [img]http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5483751/Photos/2012-05-10_2358.png[/img] The reason we have eyesight and limbs is not because they help us see or because they help us walk/grab things, but because being able to see and being able to walk/grab things is an advantage over other species and has helped us survive, and the species that did not have these things died off. They do not have a purpose because they were not created, they just are there. They have a function, not a purpose. Purpose implies they were created for a reason, function implies that they are used for something.
yeah this is getting sort of semantic but parts of biological organisms don't have purposes because that implies a design and evolution cannot "design" anything because, as said, evolution is a result of natural forces, not a force of it's own.
[QUOTE=RobbL;35905863]That's not how evolution works...[/QUOTE] yes it is. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution[/url] you might not be aware of this but the notion of developing in order for a species to progress was abandoned many years ago. only the genes that do not impede survival get carried on, and things like genetic drift and mutation work in addition to adaptation. (i wrote adaptation instead of addition oh dear) [QUOTE=RobbL;35905863]Vestigial organs are 'leftovers', organs that once did have a function but became useless as the organism evolved It's not any creature in the past has just sprouted some random appendages that don't do anything[/QUOTE] yeah duh the point is though that we didn't evolve legs just because our common ancestors decided they felt like walking the other day. [editline]10th May 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=SigmaLambda;35905944]yeah this is getting sort of semantic but parts of biological organisms don't have purposes because that implies a design and evolution cannot "design" anything because, as said, evolution is a result of natural forces, not a force of it's own.[/QUOTE] well in the end we can say Platinumcs is wrong and a bad person, that's what counts
Guess I was wrong then, sorry for derailing the thread.
Honestly, as long as he has a penis I consider Gabel a him. Now that's all out of the way, I wish him the very best of luck.
You all realise that this whole argument stemmed from Sanius claiming that this comment was completely wrong: [QUOTE=Platinumcs;35889599] we are designed to try to seek out a partner of the opposite sex to reproduce and pass on our genes. [/QUOTE] So even if function and purpose don't mean the same thing, what everyone is saying here still supports the fact that humans function so that males mate with females to pass on genes and produce offspring, and that the functions of the human body work around this. This still disproves Sanius' opinion which I thought was so obviously dumb anyway :rolleyes:
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