• Cliff Bleszinkski responds to 'Tropes vs. Women' furor
    215 replies, posted
I'm probably one of the most biased users when it comes to the subject of Anita but I don't really see how she could do anything better than this (Turn on annotations) [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbihPTgAql4[/media]
[QUOTE=thisispain;39885515]umm where do you see that assumption?? the assumption is that people participate in mass media culture i dont see how what you are talking about relates to mass media culture. we see something that mass media culture creates and we either accept it and buy into it; creating more demand; or we dont buy into it and there is no demand if a game is sexist the sexism is perpetuated purely by the virtue of us buying it, because that tells mass media that sexism sells games and companies just by their function do whatever sells the most [editline]12th March 2013[/editline] if you knew anything about marx youd know why that is[/QUOTE] Because fiction is fiction and I believe that sensible people can differ fiction from reality, just because we buy games that contain fiction doesn't mean we believe that to be real. I don't think fiction creates real problems.
[QUOTE=jiggu;39885529]Because fiction is fiction and I believe that sensible people can differ fiction from reality, just because we buy games that contain fiction doesn't mean we believe that to be real. I don't think fiction creates real problems.[/QUOTE] if sensible people could differentiate fiction from reality history wouldnt exist and cultural narratives wouldnt exist you can say religion is fiction all you want, doesnt change the fact that the bible is incredibly important to western society and shapes how we think and understand our world as westerns the same applies for games.
[QUOTE=Matrix374;39885522]I'm probably one of the most biased users when it comes to the subject of Anita but I don't really see how she could do anything better than this (Turn on annotations) [/QUOTE] What she talks about in the entire video pretty much proves my point, she believes that people believe that games are real. The annotations also continue to prove that she doesn't really know what she's talking about, and she takes every opportunity to throw in the words patriarchy and misogynism to create a problem that doesn't really exist, so that she can continue to discuss it. [editline]12th March 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=thisispain;39885556]if sensible people could differentiate fiction from reality history wouldnt exist and cultural narratives wouldnt exist you can say religion is fiction all you want, doesnt change the fact that the bible is incredibly important to western society and shapes how we think and understand our world as westerns the same applies for games.[/QUOTE] Oh now I just know you're throwing straws The bible was taught to ignorant masses as being real, everyone was indoctrinated to believe that the bible is reality. I have never ever seen any sticker, annotation or anything saying "THIS GAME IS REAL AND YOU MUST BELIEVE IN WHAT HAPPENS HERE!"
in our consumerist culture real and fiction are irrelevant, what matters is the public image language isnt "real" by any means, but you acquire it via social pressure and we know through scientific study that just speaking one language heavily changes the way you think, with english people having very different thoughts from other speakers just because their sentence structure is composed in a certain way
[QUOTE=jiggu;39885557]What she talks about in the entire video pretty much proves my point, she believes that people believe that games are real. The annotations also continue to prove that she doesn't really know what she's talking about, and she takes every opportunity to throw in the words patriarchy and misogynism to create a problem that doesn't really exist, so that she can continue to discuss it. [/QUOTE] Keep in mind she removed the video after realizing her mistakes.
[QUOTE=thisispain;39885570]in our consumerist culture real and fiction are irrelevant, what matters is the public image language isnt "real" by any means, but you acquire it via social pressure and we know through scientific study that just speaking one language heavily changes the way you think, with english people having very different thoughts from other speakers just because their sentence structure is composed in a certain way[/QUOTE] I'm not sure what you're attempting anymore. "Language isn't real"? Sure, language is fluid and evolving, but it's very much real. I'm outta this thread.
[QUOTE=jiggu;39885557] Oh now I just know you're throwing straws[/QUOTE] dont use words or terms you dont understand lol [QUOTE=jiggu;39885557]The bible was taught to ignorant masses as being real, everyone was indoctrinated to believe that the bible is reality. I have never ever seen any sticker, annotation or anything saying "THIS GAME IS REAL AND YOU MUST BELIEVE IN WHAT HAPPENS HERE!"[/QUOTE] first of all thats historically not true, youll find even today that non-ignorant people will gladly believe in the bible second of all thats not really my point, my point is we live in a secular culture yet a religious text guides our thinking in a lot of ways. just because its fiction doesnt mean our attitudes arent changed by it, any religion that has manifested in the roots of a culture can have the same said of it, islam, buddhism, shinto, mormonism, rastafarism. [editline]12th March 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=jiggu;39885591] "Language isn't real"? Sure, language is fluid and evolving, but it's very much real.[/QUOTE] languages is a series of words and concepts, if language is real then so is a game [editline]12th March 2013[/editline] that reminds me of that study i read that said people who dont believe that advertisement affects them are actually far more strongly affected by it; i wonder if the same is true for jiggu lol
[QUOTE=thisispain;39885593]dont use words or terms you dont understand lol first of all thats historically not true, youll find even today that non-ignorant people will gladly believe in the bible second of all thats not really my point, my point is we live in a secular culture yet a religious text guides our thinking in a lot of ways. just because its fiction doesnt mean our attitudes arent changed by it, any religion that has manifested in the roots of a culture can have the same said of it, islam, buddhism, shinto, mormonism, rastafarism. [editline]12th March 2013[/editline] languages is a series of words and concepts, if language is real then so is a game[/QUOTE] are you really breaking this down into semantics?
[QUOTE=omggrass;39885621]are you really breaking this down into semantics?[/QUOTE] point out where i broke this "down into semantics" plz
[QUOTE=thisispain;39885593]dont use words or terms you dont understand lol first of all thats historically not true, youll find even today that non-ignorant people will gladly believe in the bible second of all thats not really my point, my point is we live in a secular culture yet a religious text guides our thinking in a lot of ways. just because its fiction doesnt mean our attitudes arent changed by it, any religion that has manifested in the roots of a culture can have the same said of it, islam, buddhism, shinto, mormonism, rastafarism. [editline]12th March 2013[/editline] languages is a series of words and concepts, if language is real then so is a game [editline]12th March 2013[/editline] that reminds me of that study i read that said people who dont believe that advertisement affects them are actually far more strongly affected by it; i wonder if the same is true for jiggu lol[/QUOTE] could you source me that study, i'm interested. [editline]12th March 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=thisispain;39885626]point out where i broke this "down into semantics" plz[/QUOTE] when you felt the need to explain what language IS... [editline]12th March 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=omggrass;39885628]could you source me that study, i'm interested. [editline]12th March 2013[/editline] when you felt the need to explain what language IS...[/QUOTE] also video games doesn't have as much of an effect on us as you think, because god help us if it did.
The problem isn't really how women are portrayed in videogames. It's more the existence of the legion of cranky nerds who literally think all women are stupid whores.
[QUOTE=Falchion;39885676]The problem isn't really how women are portrayed in videogames. It's more the existence of the legion of cranky nerds who literally think all women are stupid whores.[/QUOTE] nail, head, hammer.
[QUOTE=omggrass;39885628]could you source me that study, i'm interested.[/QUOTE] i cant find it; it was probably some bullshit cracked article haha [QUOTE=omggrass;39885628]when you felt the need to explain what language IS...[/QUOTE] thats not semantics, thats more trying to create an analogy language isnt any more tangible and nonfictional than the ideas and concepts expressed through a videogame, its just you accept the language because you live in that culture the same applies to any media, including games [QUOTE=omggrass;39885628]also video games doesn't have as much of an effect on us as you think, because god help us if it did.[/QUOTE] not very convincing lol why wouldnt videogames influence us like film or music have? think of how much language is affected by what movies we watch. think about how who we want in a partner is affected by film and how they should dress or act (look up manic pixie). think about how we look at ourselves is influenced by identity which involves what media we consume (when someone calls themselves a gamer, they acknowledge how much influence it has on them as a person) the problem with culture is you dont get a say, if others are affected by it you must be affected by it whether negatively or positively [editline]12th March 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Falchion;39885676]The problem isn't really how women are portrayed in videogames. It's more the existence of the legion of cranky nerds who literally think all women are stupid whores.[/QUOTE] they didnt come out of their mums thinking that way
[QUOTE=thisispain;39885749] they didnt come out of their mums thinking that way[/QUOTE] No they unfortunately went through 4chan /pol/ after that.
[QUOTE=EliteGuy;39883224]Since when did someone's opinion become news?[/QUOTE] [IMG]http://puu.sh/2go3E[/IMG] ??? Anyways, yeah, I know that's a different situation than what this is, but still, not all news has to be important/relating to political/economic news.
I almost read this as Cliff Bleszinkski Resigns.
I never really saw the idea behind this. I mean, if I wanted to play a game where characters are realistic and lifelike (in the sense that they don't have super powers and are supposed to be somewhat like normal people) I'd go and play the sims and let the game randomly generate my characters. I play games to get away from the real world, having characters that are obviously made to look better than real people do, act in way that real people probably wouldn't do and generally be a bit over the top is the whole point. Most games I feel are just a bit 'over the top' in that sense and any sort of sexism isn't intended to be sexist, it's intended to make the target audience (which in a lot of cases is male young adults) feel bloody awesome. Honestly, I didn't even think Bayonetta was supposed to be offensive because although the character does act a bit 'sexy', she's also going around knocking seven shades of shit out of all the enemies. It's like how in most hack-n-slash games the characters tend to pull off funky poses and be as 'stylish' as possible, it makes the player feel damn cool about what they're doing. Maybe it's just me, or as someone said above the fact that a lot of nerds think that all women are stupid whores, but I don't think there's much of a problem. Maybe I'm missing the point or something, but I don't see the issue and neither do any of my female gamer friends, they just see it is a bit of hyper-realism. You get to play as and interact with people who you wouldn't meet in real life and are very exaggerated.
[QUOTE=ChaosUnleash;39885963]I mean, if I wanted to play a game where characters are realistic and lifelike I'd go and play the sims [/QUOTE] heh??
[QUOTE=Talishmar;39885292]Loud idiots on both sides blur out the reasonable discussion. There was reasonable disapproval that by some was escalated to hate, which sparked counter-hate but targeted disapprovers in general and from that point it just keeps going.[/QUOTE] It's like politics, in q lot of ways both sides of the political spectrum have legitimate plans for running a country. But, the majority of people don't stick to the valuable philosophy (to be valuable philosophy, ideas about how the country should be run are well thought out, and interdependent l. But, the vast majority of people only know the ideology (distilled philosophy meant to mobilize the masses, but lacking in scientific and philosophical depth) The one's who don't think stuff through have more of a voice, and the country suffers.
[QUOTE=thisispain;39885968]heh??[/QUOTE] Bad example I must admit, but my point was that if I pop in a hack-n-slash game that's based around the concept of diving around with swords cutting things up and causing explosions I hardly expect the characters to be based around average human beings.
[QUOTE=ChaosUnleash;39885989]Bad example I must admit, but my point was that if I pop in a hack-n-slash game that's based around the concept of diving around with swords cutting things up and causing explosions I hardly expect the characters to be based around average human beings.[/QUOTE] there's a pretty big difference between fun stupid and offensively stupid. in a fun game that's silly, the characters will be fun to interact with since they're all so over the top and unrealistic but are nonetheless unique. in a not so fun game, the second character you see being a big-breasted bint with no personality is not being fun at the cost of being stupid, it's being stupid at the cost of being fun. who will remember a character like that or derive any kind of enjoyment from their interactions? it's just overplayed and done to death, and i think it goes without saying that this is not a fun kind of character, nor is it one that we should encourage by writing it off as being part of the experience.
[QUOTE=Cone;39886383]nor is it one that we should encourage by writing it off as being part of the experience.[/QUOTE] Do you think people want to interact with badly written characters?
I should do a tropes vs. Russians with real russians poor treatment of russians in video game writing has gone on for too long (I might actually do this lol)
[QUOTE=jiggu;39885281]It's a hard subject, and I understand that. But I think people are blaming the wrong thing. The reason girls are being insulted, harassed and stalked whenever the reveal their identity in gaming is not because we've been playing games where women tend to be portrayed as weak. This assumption is based on the "fact" that people cannot differ fiction from reality, just as with how people claim violent games leads to school shootings and other IRL violence, it simply does not. What leads to men obsessing over women in online gaming is the fact that these people are a bunch of idiots. They think the proper way to treat a women is the same way we though in early school, get her attention by picking on her, stealing her things etc. People that act this way simply don't know how to act with women. So when people blame games that shows damsels in distress, skimpy outfits and whatever I just sigh. Do people really think gamers are this stupid? HUMANITY IS THIS STUPID. Stupid people are going to do stupid things until stupidity is erased by some super drug in the future, until then we're going to see a lot of problems that don't have any cause other than idiots doing wrong things and trying to teach them how to do it correctly wont work. I'd like to see one case of a person actually believing in video game fiction(without being mentally insane). Is that even possible?[/QUOTE] Blaming such things on stupidity is an easy out and deflection of the problem. It's like guys defending rape culture by saying that guys are like animals and can't help it, and that it's up to women to live in fear and protect themselves. Males are all smart enough on average to understand the basics of my previous post, they just willingly deny it because of the atmosphere they have grown up in, in which everything in their childhoods and teenage lives, including video game stories, has given them certain ideas about women and men in society. Stupidity is no longer an excuse. Also, being shitty to women does not mean you believe the actual stories of the video games or their validity 100%; the effects of patriarchal culture are a lot more subtle than that.
[QUOTE=omggrass;39885130]Super princess peach is one. also you could make one right? i mean what's stopping people from making a game like that? people's creativity should not be limited by what others feel, i mean what if i told michael angelo to stop painting the Sistine Chapel ceiling because there are naked women in the painting and it's portraying them as (in my opionion) sex objects while that may not be the case. also i like how the feminist movement is kind of really shitting on multiculturalism, i mean japan has a very different cultural style and we are waltzing in and telling them they need to change their whole life style because "we" think it's sexist. at the end of the day what is good for feminism is not good for multiculturalism, so we are going to have to chose, multiculturalism or feminism.[/QUOTE] Her point was that damsel in distress is overused, not that games that used it are evil and that no game should ever do it again to any degree.
[QUOTE=Shadaez;39883612] Do you seriously know anyone who buys games because boobs?[/QUOTE] That's like the only reason Dead or Alive sells anymore.
[QUOTE=EliteGuy;39883224]Since when did someone's opinion become news? And isn't Cliffy who also said that PC is a dead platform full of only pirates?[/QUOTE] I can't tell if that was your lazy way of delegitimizing the opinion or...What
[QUOTE=Eric95;39885332]So a feminine female character is wrong, a next to genderless female character is wrong, and a masculine female character is wrong? What's right, then? Would people be happy if we just omitted female characters from games altogether?[/QUOTE] Not exactly, she's mostly criticizing weak female characters that fall into "character templates". I don't believe that she thinks that it's necessarily sexist, but it's lazy character development. The three templates that you've listed shows how severe it is. Imagine if every single male characters were buff military veterans who lost their parents and fought against aliens. It's not necessarily bad, but you lose interest in character development rapidly.
[QUOTE=Eric95;39885423]Yeah, I think that's the thing. It's for a good cause, but she's doing a shitty job at it and that's a problem because she has somehow become the main representative of her side. Which just leads to people already on her side being the only ones who take her videos seriously, and that makes her videos useless for purposes beyond raising general awareness.[/QUOTE] True but realize most people who have become the face of something have been shitty, yet still moved mountains [editline]12th March 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=thisispain;39885431]its obvious why shes the main representative. she provides a very simplistic youtube video that can easily be shared and turned into youtube controversy by people sharing her shit on forums or imageboards if she wrote a book like every proper social critic no-one would care and no-one would talk about it [editline]12th March 2013[/editline] lets face it if anyone on the internet actually gave a shit about what anita had to say theyd order books about feminist media theory and try to find out about the issue youre not gonna understand shit about feminism or the problems women face by watching bad youtube videos[/QUOTE] This too
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