• US Supreme Court Rules in Favor of Gun Rights
    764 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Mindtwistah;22967483]ITT: A bunch of idiots thinking giving everyone guns will keep criminality down. Here in Sweden, we have very restrictive gun laws. The only guns allowed are hunting rifles, and that's only with a license. In the US, practically everyone have a gun at home. Well guess what, the murder rate and robbery rate per capita for the US is 4 times higher than for Sweden. Guns for everyone does not work, it only makes things worse.[/QUOTE] Give me some stats on the number of murders committed by people who legally owned guns please and then I'll believe you. [editline]08:00AM[/editline] [QUOTE=Noz;22967908]That's unsurprising. Hmmm... I wonder where those countries get all their guns?[/QUOTE] By people who illegally sell them. Hmmm, it looks like those people would be unaffected by any gun laws! Gee whiz!
[QUOTE=Mindtwistah;22967907]I've never stated Sweden was a crime-less society, but surely every normal person's dream is to have a society with as little crime as possible.[/QUOTE] I believe the famous quote goes, "Give me liberty or give me death." Not "Give me government regulation or give me crime." [QUOTE=Mindtwistah;22967907]So they just have the 4th highest gun-related homicides. That's still pretty damn high, don't you think :V[/QUOTE] Second half of the post says the point I was trying to make. Impulsive teenagers are doing most of the killings. Bar that statistic and most of Europe has more gun-related killings than America. This is a sign that public schooling does NOT work. Which, by the way, is government run. Don't you think that LESS government interference works better than MORE? [QUOTE=Mindtwistah;22967907]Also, I'd like to say that I see your point about it not being possible to ban guns since they already are in circulation and part of your culture, and that other conditions are also responsible for the high robbery/murder numbers, but isn't it better to work towards a decrease of guns in circulation instead of an increase? :/[/QUOTE] One gun, five guns, it doesn't matter. A bullet to the head will kill you. Just because something is rare doesn't mean it's non-acquirable. Where there's a will, there's a way. [QUOTE=Noz;22967908]That's unsurprising. Hmmm... I wonder where those countries get all their guns?[/QUOTE] Lol, made in China like everything else? (this is a joke, btw... in case you can't tell)
[QUOTE=lulzbocks;22967952]Give me some stats on the number of murders committed by people who legally owned guns please and then I'll believe you.[/QUOTE] Don't have statistics for murders committed by people who legally own guns, but getting statistics for murders per capita in each country is just a google-search away.
[QUOTE=Mindtwistah;22967984]Don't have statistics for murders committed by people who legally own guns, but getting statistics for murders per capita in each country is just a google-search away.[/QUOTE] Which apparently a lot of people here seems to have not done before they went on B&M sessions. I see a lot of throwing around of "facts" but very little linking of sources.
[QUOTE=Mindtwistah;22967984]Don't have statistics for murders committed by people who legally own guns, but getting statistics for murders per capita in each country is just a google-search away.[/QUOTE] Then go to google and get it. You don't send someone else to get sources for your own arguments.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;22967702]True, I suppose that would happen. I guess we won't really know until it happens.[/QUOTE] Also as for the bases, see my post about the Croatian Militias going from using T-34s to having a 10th of all of the Yugoslavian Army's Equipment in just a span of 3 months by attacking and Capturing Serb and Montenegrin Manned Bases [quote]At the beginning of the war, Croat forces had a chronic lack of any equipment. Estimates place their tank strength at a measly fifteen tanks (majority old World War II U.S. M4 Shermans or Soviet T-34), against almost 2000 tanks of the JNA. Capture of barracks filled with valuable equipment enabled a quick and easy way for Croats to obtain needed equipment. Bjelovar and Varaždin alone provided the Croats with over 140 tanks, or about 7% of JNA total, which disrupted the otherwise overwhelming advantage of the JNA. As a result, Croatia was able to field its first T-55 tank battalion by October, a remarkable achievement done in just a few weeks. The inflow of tanks, artillery, and AT weaponry helped stop further JNA attacks into Croatia.[/quote] [quote]Captured: 350 tanks, 280 armoured personnel carriers, 100 Self-propelled AA, AT and artillery vehicles, 400 heavy artillery pieces, 37 various ships, 180-240.000 small arms (majority Zastava M70 assault rifles), countless ammunition[/quote]
So what will happen in cities like Chicago that have a handgun ban?
[QUOTE=Mindtwistah;22967984]Don't have statistics for murders committed by people who legally own guns, but getting statistics for murders per capita in each country is just a google-search away.[/QUOTE] So how do you know that most of the murders were not committed by people who illegally owned the guns?
[QUOTE=lulzbocks;22968091]So how do you know that most of the murders were not committed by people who illegally owned the guns?[/QUOTE] Because you have to be fucking retarded to use a [b]gun registered in your name[/b] in a murder
[QUOTE=lulzbocks;22968091]So how do you know that most of the murders were not committed by people who illegally owned the guns?[/QUOTE] There's no real way to do that statistic. Not every murder gets solved, so knowing whether the murderer actually owned the gun legally or not in that case is a fact that cannot be acquired.
[QUOTE=FoxwolfJackson;22968136]There's no real way to do that statistic. Not every murder gets solved, so knowing whether the murderer actually owned the gun legally or not in that case is a fact that cannot be acquired.[/QUOTE] So he should stop saying these things like they are solid fact.
[QUOTE=Broseph_;22968110]Because you have to be fucking retarded to use a [b]gun registered in your name[/b] in a murder[/QUOTE] So what you're saying is that banning guns would have little effect on the people who commit the murders.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;22968018]Then go to google and get it. You don't send someone else to get sources for your own arguments.[/QUOTE] According to FBI's list here: [URL]http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2008/data/table_01.html[/URL] the robbery rate of the US is 145/100000 people and the murder rate is 5.4/100000. According to EU's: [URL]http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/cache/ITY_OFFPUB/KS-SF-07-015/EN/KS-SF-07-015-EN.PDF[/URL] Page 4, Sweden's homicide (murder) rate is 1/100000, which is 5 times less than America. I do not have statistics for robberies per capita in Sweden, but we are very similar to our neighbouring countries Denmark and Norway, and their robbery rates is according to this: [URL]http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rob_percap-crime-robberies-per-capita[/URL] is between 40-50/100000, which is about 3 times less than that of the US.
[QUOTE=lulzbocks;22968196]So what you're saying is that banning guns would have little effect on the people who commit the murders.[/QUOTE] Yes, most murders are committed with guns that are ether stolen or bought on the black market Also if I Recall Correctly, I believe the Chinese flooded the black market with guns which lead to their main arms company, Norinco, to be banned along with all Chinese Guns imports due to a ATF raid on the Hell Angels in Oakland netting fucking Shoulder Fired Anti-Air Missile Launchers and Fully automatic Chinese AK clones Norinco was selling directly to the hells angel
[QUOTE=Broseph_;22968228]Yes, most murders are committed with guns that are ether stolen or bought on the black market[/QUOTE] Coolio. Read this Mindtwistah.
Well... YEE'HAW!
[QUOTE=Mindtwistah;22968221]According to FBI's list here: [URL]http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2008/data/table_01.html[/URL] the robbery rate of the US is 145/100000 people and the murder rate is 5.4/100000. According to EU's: [URL]http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/cache/ITY_OFFPUB/KS-SF-07-015/EN/KS-SF-07-015-EN.PDF[/URL] Page 4, Sweden's homicide (murder) rate is 1/100000, which is 5 times less than America. I do not have statistics for robberies per capita in Sweden, but we are very similar to our neighbouring countries Denmark and Norway, and their robbery rates is according to this: [URL]http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rob_percap-crime-robberies-per-capita[/URL] is between 40-50/100000, which is about 3 times less than that of the US.[/QUOTE] Correlation does not imply causation.
[QUOTE=Mindtwistah;22968221]According to FBI's list here: [URL]http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2008/data/table_01.html[/URL] the robbery rate of the US is 145/100000 people and the murder rate is 5.4/100000. According to EU's: [URL]http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/cache/ITY_OFFPUB/KS-SF-07-015/EN/KS-SF-07-015-EN.PDF[/URL] Page 4, Sweden's homicide (murder) rate is 1/100000, which is 5 times less than America. I do not have statistics for robberies per capita in Sweden, but we are very similar to our neighbouring countries Denmark and Norway, and their robbery rates is according to this: [URL]http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rob_percap-crime-robberies-per-capita[/URL] is between 40-50/100000, which is about 3 times less than that of the US.[/QUOTE] Don't fucking compare one tiny little country to the whole united states. Compare the entire EU's rate to the US'. [editline]07:34PM[/editline] [QUOTE=Billiam;22968285]Correlation does not imply causation.[/QUOTE] ^ [editline]07:35PM[/editline] Also bear in mind that we live on the boarder of mexico, which has criminals flowing in and out of the US.
Meanwhile don't any of you fuckers bring up the guns in Mexico The fucking reason they are traced back to the U.S. is due to the fucking fact the [b]Mexican Military purchased them from the U.S.[/b], not because somehow the Drug cartels really want a bunch of fucking watered down Semi-Automatic Assault Rifles when they can get fully automatic Military grade ones from the fucking Mexican Military Armories which have no fucking locks And to add to that, most AR-15s are chambered in .223 Remington and have a lower pressure tolerance then the Military Grade Ammo which means if you try to let loose with a AR-15 using 5.56mm NATO you are at risk of the fucker blowing up in your hand like a Glock .40 [editline]09:37PM[/editline] [quote=zombiefreak;22968312]also bear in mind that we live on the boarder of mexico, which has criminals flowing in and out of the us.[/quote] omgz ur racist cus u think all mexicanz r crimicals
[QUOTE=Broseph_;22968349]Meanwhile don't any of you fuckers bring up the guns in Mexico The fucking reason they are traced back to the U.S. is due to the fucking fact the [b]Mexican Military purchased them from the U.S.[/b], not because somehow the Drug cartels really want a bunch of fucking watered down Semi-Automatic Assault Rifles when they can get fully automatic Military grade ones from the fucking Mexican Military Armories which have no fucking locks [B]And to add to that, most AR-15s are chambered in .223 Remington and have a lower pressure tolerance then the Military Grade Ammo which means if you try to let loose with a AR-15 using 5.56mm NATO you are at risk of the fucker blowing up in your hand like a Glock .40[/B][/QUOTE] Just to get off topic for a sec how come I see a lot of uppers in 5.56?
I'm just happy because now we can all have SKS's.
[QUOTE=zombiefreak;22968365]Just to get off topic for a sec how come I see a lot of uppers in 5.56?[/QUOTE] Because 5.56 uppers are backwards compatible with .223 Remington ammo :v: Meanwhile they are still fucking semi-automatic The only rifles I see the Mexican Drug Cartels wanting to buy from the U.S. are semi-automatic marksman rifles and Barrett M82s since due to the fact they are not fully-automatic and their prices aren't jacked up through the roof due to the 1986 automatic weapons registry closure. Seriously lets think about this, a Automatic M16 on the US market costs $15k, Law Enforcement, who are exempt from the automatic weapons registry closure, can buy the same rifle for the same price as a regular AR-15 since it's just this tiny cheap ass device that makes it automatic [img]http://www.quarterbore.com/images/JCBDIAS_01.JPG[/img] And before you go [i]herp durr den thay kanz jus buy a regulah Ay-Arr Fit-Teen n ad dat[/i] No they fucking can't, almost all AR-15s on the open market today have the bolt carrier milled to make it impossible for you to use this device. Now why the fuck would they want to even buy U.S. automatics [i]which cost tens of thousands of dollars[/i] when they have the Mexican Army Armories?
[QUOTE=Mindtwistah;22967984]Don't have statistics for murders committed by people who legally own guns, but getting statistics for murders per capita in each country is just a google-search away.[/QUOTE] Now you have the problem of determining how many of those were justified. Murder is, regardless of the surrounding circumstances, always a crime. However self defense is a solid legal defense. So you could kill an armed intruder in a blatant case of self defense and it will still be counted as a murder. Note that preliminary investigations will almost always cause the DA to not pursue any legal action. So its a crime, you just never go to court because they already know the outcome will come down in your favor and that, frankly, you don't deserve to go to jail. There are also murders which aren't cut and dry cases of self defense and DO go to court. The classic case is the girlfriend shooting the abusive boyfriend after years of mental and physical abuse. Technically he wasn't an immediate threat, but the American legal system is awesome in this way so jurors are under ZERO obligation to uphold the law at all, so she will frequently be found not guilty anyways. Still counts as murder! [editline]11:43PM[/editline] [QUOTE=Mindtwistah;22968221]According to FBI's list here: [URL]http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2008/data/table_01.html[/URL] the robbery rate of the US is 145/100000 people and the murder rate is 5.4/100000. According to EU's: [URL]http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/cache/ITY_OFFPUB/KS-SF-07-015/EN/KS-SF-07-015-EN.PDF[/URL] Page 4, Sweden's homicide (murder) rate is 1/100000, which is 5 times less than America. I do not have statistics for robberies per capita in Sweden, but we are very similar to our neighbouring countries Denmark and Norway, and their robbery rates is according to this: [URL]http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rob_percap-crime-robberies-per-capita[/URL] is between 40-50/100000, which is about 3 times less than that of the US.[/QUOTE] Comparing the EU to the United States is a ridiculous notion. We have a population that is spread out over huge distances and comprised of every nation and ideology on the planet. Not only do our police forces have more real estate to cover for the same population and tax income, but we have a constant culture clash between every nationality on the planet. I've been to several major cities in the EU. They don't even REMOTELY compare to the United States in terms of ethnic spread. And yes, that is a massive portion of US crime. Though we can compare the US to the US. States with stricter gun laws? More crime! Often, if the increase in laws was recent enough, you can watch a lovely little (actually massive) spike in crime shortly after the increase in regulations. California is like the murder capitol, and yet nobody is stricter on guns. [editline]11:57PM[/editline] [QUOTE=Mindtwistah;22967907] And I haven't stated that all Americans are murderers and robbers, I've only stated that with more guns in peoples hands there are going to be more shootings. Not everyone will kill someone just because they have a gun, but there are plenty who will, in any country. [/QUOTE] According to Florida, people with concealed carry permits commit way WAY less crime than people without a concealed carry permit. Since 1987 Florida has issued 1.7 million concealed carry permits. Of those only 5 thousand have been revoked. 0.3 percent of the people issued said permits commit a crime that caused jail time. Of those five thousand, only 167 people had their license revoked due to a crime involving a firearm. That is 0.009 percent of the people issued concealed carry permits. Statistically they are among the single most law abiding groups in existence. [url]http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/stats/cw_monthly.html[/url]
[QUOTE=Doriol;22960037]Any American who thinks a militia is a valid idea is a red neck. You don't solve everything by shooting people.[/QUOTE] Emphasis on everything. There are [I]some[/I] problems you solve by shooting people. :v:
[QUOTE=the_KMM;22970538]Emphasis on everything. There are [I]some[/I] problems you solve by shooting people. :v:[/QUOTE] I was speaking about political things in general. but yes
[QUOTE=Doriol;22970549]I was speaking about political things in general. but yes[/QUOTE] That isn't what a militia is you dumb shit. At least that's what it isn't like in America. [highlight](User was banned for this post ("flaming" - GunFox))[/highlight]
[QUOTE=Pantz76;22968090]So what will happen in cities like Chicago that have a handgun ban?[/QUOTE] In Chicago, you get killed by sleazy politics and baseball bats.
[QUOTE=MegaChalupa;22972077]In Chicago, you get killed by sleazy politics and baseball bats.[/QUOTE] Baseball Bats, Brass Knucles, and Shanks. Lots, and lots of shanks.
The second amendment isn't only to protect our homes, it's to protect our country. Especially protection from the government. Too many people don't understand that.
[QUOTE=Furioso;22973260]The second amendment isn't only to protect our homes, it's to protect our country. Especially protection from the government. Too many people don't understand that.[/QUOTE] LOL, [i]you really think [u]you[/u] can take on the Government with their [u]planes and tanks[/u] you redneck?[/i] Meanwhile I find it odd that some of these same people who say this are the ones who said the U.S. was losing the War in Iraq, to city dwellers and farmers with AKs with RPGs and other weapons raided from Iraqi Army Armories, they had no Anti-Air, they had no Tanks, or Helicopters, or Jets, at the very most they had were some Pick-ups with a PK on the top of the cab, yet they nearly made the U.S. military lose the war, now pit the Military against people who actually speak the same language as them and live in places they have been to, and unlike Yugoslavia where everyone split on ethnic lines, there's no such room for that in the US as unlike Yugoslavia, the Irish have no state in the U.S. that's their homeland, there's no state in the U.S. that the German-Americans that's their homeland, everyone is American, Not Irish or German or African, but Americans unlike Yugoslavia where the Croats had Croatia, the Serbs had Serbia, and the Slovenians had Slovenija, and the free for all known as Bosnia that everyone wanted a piece of and had a strong hold in with the Bosniaks fucked 9 ways to sunday by everyone it bordered until the Croats realized the Serbs were mutual enemies of both Bosniaks and Croats, of course all of us were Yugoslavs, but after Tito died and the economy went to shit, we became disillusioned with Yugoslavia and gave way for nationalism.
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