More in U.S. Favor Diplomacy Over Sanctions for Russia
23 replies, posted
Lots of interesting data in this poll.
75% of Americans believe Russia interfered in the election, but only 9% of Republicans think it changed the outcome, versus 78% of Democrats and 34% of independents.
Democrats favor strong steps against Russia by a slim majority (51% to 45%). Independents and Republicans favor improving relations.
30% of Republicans reject the claim that Russia interfered.
If those negotiations are conducted whilst Trump is in power, it won't be negotiations so much as bending over and taking a rough one up the jacksie.
Nothing beats getting fucked by Putin to own the libs #MAGA
I'd like for us to be friends with Russia but neither administration is capable of it
I don't want us to be friends with Russia because they don't give even a fraction of a shit about international laws, treaties, or human rights and are actively interfering with our political processes in illegal ways
Russia is corruption incarnate. They don't have friends or allies, they have puppets.
Like I said, it's just not possible right now. Maybe someday both of our countries can make a change for the better but I'll likely die before that happens
I don't want to be friends with putin or anyone in his orbit, russia is fine. I've met a great deal of lovely russian (or former soviet union) people
I favor diplomacy to sanctions as well. In this case, diplomatically sending Ukraine anti-tank missile launchers.
It's gonna be the same pretty much everywhere you go. The vast majority of people are just trying to live their lives. It's that small fraction of assholes that ruin everything, especially if said assholes happen to be in charge.
And really, I can't help but feel bad for the Russians. They just can't seem to ever catch a break when it comes to leadership. Czar's in charge? Violent authoritarianism. Soviets are in charge? Violent authoritarianism. Putin's in charge? Violent authoritarianism, albeit with a thin coat of paint and some mock elections to dress it up like a democracy. It's just one bad system after another.
Better Idea, increase the sanctions on companies that are closely tied to Putin.
It does seemly nothing by this point but unintentionally sending more (possibility but depends alleged) spies, foreign interventions and martyrdom by Anti-Establishment westerners as such.
Yea, But I also little worried of potentially future Russophobia attacks in US, some point...
What, I also hopefully don't need accidentally creating WW3? And specially ironic from user having WW2 tanks as profile.
Again - all the actions I have seen by the administration have been strong against Putin. Ideally, Trump should come strong against Putin as well in his public addresses but you have to take victories when you get them.
I'm just shocked at the turnaround for Republicans here. In 2008 Obama was criticized for being weak on Russia, in 2012 Romney was mocked for being weary of Russia, in 2014 Russia invaded Ukraine, in 2016 Russia meddled in our elections, and now here we are in 2018 and now the same party that mocked Obama's friendlness toward Russia are not advocating friendliness toward Russia?
Obama was willing to sweep Georgia under the rug and consider Chechnya to be Russia's business so we could go forth with the reset and enter a new era of relations. Are we just supposed to go with that again now? Sweep Ukraine under the rug and ignore the subversion of our democracy for a shot at good relations? We did it once and it didn't work out, I do not think they deserve another chance until they change.
At this point we can't do anything about Russia. No one can.
There are reports of them fucking with China, Europe, the Middle East, the US, South America. Russia is basically trying to fuck with everything because they know we can't really do anything. The only thing left is to make the richest man in Russia poor.
While that is true, I rather not have Cold War 2. I mean, I rather the US just try its best at meddling with the rest of the world too.
when has the us cared about these
we don't even get war criminals punished since we've decided to invade the hague if anyone tries
The US does all of these things as well. Pretty much every superpower does because they have certain interests to uphold and no one is going to be able to stop them from pursuing them.
Wow. The whataboutism is extreme in this thread, and this is the one instance where it applies most supremely considering it's creation.
Sorry. I'm not fan of Russia, but why do Americans always throw this phrase around to try and deflect legitimate criticism of their country?
Especially when in this case, we were not even trying to detract from Russia being bad, but merely pointing out that acting as if the US holds the moral high ground in the situation is hypocritical.
Russia and the US both have terrible human rights records, they've both violated numerous treaties, they both manipulate and blind their citizens from truth and reality via the mass media, and they both have highly corrupt political systems. They both need to work towards repairing these injustices before pointing fingers at one another because let's be honest, they're pointing and screaming at their own reflections.
You and the media can call it whataboutism, but I'd prefer to call it critical thinking. We should be able to compare the wrongdoings of countries without being told it's whataboutism because as far as I'm concerned, this creates a double standard where America (or what ever other country) is immune from being fairly criticised on its policies. If we didn't compare things and realise their essentially the same, then we end up using language to make the actions of one seem better or morally superior than that of another which is easier to do when the issues are separated.
For those who don't know, Russia is currently in the middle of a war against the United States, not one of men and land, but of intelligence and influence. Russia is carrying out a sizeable attempt to try and disunite America and drive us as part as fast as they can. They don't give a shit about trying to put Trump in power because he's a good pawn necessarily, that's just a bonus, they put him in power to try and drive the American people as far apart from each other as possible, distracting us from what Russia's doing in the background between Ukraine, Syria, the Caucuses and espionage attacks on our own private soil. Russia has kickstarted the decline of global American influence and they will not stop until they themselves can see their interests through.
Since the early 2000s when Russia has upped it's intelligence systems, Russia has:
Proven to have hacked and influenced the 2016 election in their favor
Seen the decline of American trade influence throughout the world through tariffs as well as poor diplomatic relations as well as a noticeable effect on the US economy
Undermined the NATO alliance, the biggest military threat to Russia, by leaving it without a proper forefront leader
Mapped and planned out US infrastructure and communications systems, ready to attack them cybernetically if need be
Trained and implanted Russian agents and paramilitary organizations, all on US soil
And this is just a fraction of the shit they're actually doing, the stuff that's been able to hit the airwaves. The US is under attack intentionally and there's no doubt about it, this isn't a dumb conspiracy theory, because quite literally Russian Military Doctrine since the 1990s has promoted cyberwarfare and espionage services as one of the key features of its military.
Russia is not our friend, and will never will be as long as people like Putin are still in power in Russia as they still view the US as an external threat and will do anything they can to try and ensure American influence across the world wanes. And they're doing a very good job of it.
There's nothing wrong or fallacious with whataboutism if applied correctly.
Christian Christensen, Professor of Journalism in Stockholm, argues that the accusation of whataboutism is itself a form of tu quoque fallacy, as it dismisses criticisms of one's own behavior to focus instead on the actions of another, thus creating a double standard. Those who use whataboutism are not necessarily engaging in an empty or cynical deflection of responsibility: whataboutism can be a useful tool to expose contradictions, double standards, and hypocrisy.
Others have criticized the usage of accusations of whataboutism by American news outlets, arguing that the accusation whataboutism has been used to simply deflect any and all criticism of human rights abuses perpetrated by the United States or its allies. They argue that the usage of the term almost exclusively by American outlets is a double standard, and that moral accusations made by powerful countries are merely a pretext to punish their geopolitical rivals in the face of their own wrongdoing.
If applied incorrectly, you just have the user deflecting responsibility while the accuser of the fallacy does the same by restricting the discussion to one issue.
Problem is, that's exactly what's happening here. People keep saying "We should be pursing relations with Russia, forget about all those human rights, international law, and treaty abuses, US does those too." Which is literally whataboutism in its finest. Yes guys, we can still take a harder stance on Russia while attempting also to stop the USA from doing the same shit. And we should. The US isn't infallible and we've done some bad shit and I'd like that to change, but that's no excuse to let Russia on a free pass.
its not an excuse to give "Saudi's Best Pal" a free pass either, yet it keeps getting one.
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