• Former SS 'bookkeeper of Auschwitz': Oskar Gröning's (96) bid to suspend his jail sentence fails
    99 replies, posted
[QUOTE]A former Nazi death camp guard's bid to suspend his sentence has been rejected by Germany's Constitutional Court. The 96-year-old will soon start his four-year prison term for his role in the murders of 300,000 people. Germany's highest court denied an appeal on Friday from 96-year-old Oskar Gröning to suspend his prison sentence on health grounds. Known as the "Bookkeeper of Auschwitz," Gröning was convicted of aiding and abetting the murder of 300,000 people at the Auschwitz concentration camp and sentenced to serve four years in prison.[/QUOTE] Source: [url]http://www.dw.com/en/oskar-gr%C3%B6ning-former-ss-bookkeeper-of-auschwitz-to-start-jail-sentence-after-appeal-fails/a-41969661[/url] A follow up to this: [url]https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1589178[/url]
Is there so much anti-WW2-Germany stigma in modern Germany that this is considered a valid way of "righting their wrongs"?
[QUOTE=Revenge282;53013292]Is there so much anti-WW2-Germany stigma in modern Germany that this is considered a valid way of "righting their wrongs"?[/QUOTE] [QUOTE](1) The imposition of punishment and the ordering of measures (Section 11 subsection (1), no. 8) shall be excluded on expiry of the period of the statute of limitations. Section 76a subsection (2), sent.1, no. 1, shall remain unaffected. (2) Serious criminal offenses under Section 220a (genocide) and Section 211 (murder) are not subject to a statute of limitations.[/QUOTE] German penal code. This also applies to murder.
Oh what a shame, boo hoo. If you are accused of war crimes, and believe yourself to be innocent, stand trial. Crimes such as this should not be handwaved because someone is “too old”. “Oh but it’s just senseless to imprison this man!” say some. Ah yes, where was he to say that to the tens of thousands he saw put to death and did nothing about. Justice must be served. Allowing him to avoid sentencing because of his age just shows how little people actually care about the acts of the Nazis.
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;53013328]Oh what a shame, boo hoo. If you are accused of war crimes, and believe yourself to be innocent, stand trial. Crimes such as this should not be handwaved because someone is “too old”. “Oh but it’s just senseless to imprison this man!” say some. Ah yes, where was he to say that to the tens of thousands he saw put to death and did nothing about. Justice must be served. Allowing him to avoid sentencing because of his age just shows how little people actually care about the acts of the Nazis.[/QUOTE] I think this post from the last thread is a good reply: [url]https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1589178&p=52992080&viewfull=1#post52992080[/url] [editline]29th December 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Zillamaster55;53013328]Oh what a shame, boo hoo. If you are accused of war crimes, and believe yourself to be innocent, stand trial. Crimes such as this should not be handwaved because someone is “too old”. “Oh but it’s just senseless to imprison this man!” say some. Ah yes, where was he to say that to the tens of thousands he saw put to death and did nothing about. Justice must be served. Allowing him to avoid sentencing because of his age just shows how little people actually care about the acts of the Nazis.[/QUOTE] He also never claimed to be innocent: "During his trial, Gröning acknowledged "moral guilt" but said it was up to the court to rule on his legal culpability." [url]https://www.thelocal.de/20171220/bookkeeper-of-auschwitz-96-mounts-battle-against-jail[/url]
[QUOTE=Gorgus;53013333]I think this post from the last thread is a good reply: [url]https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1589178&p=52992080&viewfull=1#post52992080[/url] [editline]29th December 2017[/editline] He also never claimed to be innocent: "During his trial, Gröning acknowledged "moral guilt" but said it was up to the court to rule on his legal culpability." [url]https://www.thelocal.de/20171220/bookkeeper-of-auschwitz-96-mounts-battle-against-jail[/url][/QUOTE] Ah yes the “Nuremberg” defense. “I tried to stop but they wouldn’t let me, in the end I was following orders” is what his defense boiled down to. It didn’t work for high profile Nazi’s either, I think it’s hard for folks here to feel the impact of the Holocaust since young people are so far removed from any personal impact due to age. You gotta remember that an estimated 1.1 million people were killed at Auschwitz, all with lives and families just like us. Justice for having a hand in their deaths doesn’t escape anyone and it’s a disgrace to their memory to set an expiration date on their murders.
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;53013328]"Oh but it’s just senseless to imprison this man!” say some. Ah yes, where was he to say that to the tens of thousands he saw put to death and did nothing about. Justice must be served. Allowing him to avoid sentencing because of his age just shows how little people actually care about the acts of the Nazis.[/QUOTE] Imprisonment exists to protect citizens from the criminal, and to rehabilitate the criminal into not repeating the crime. This criminal isn't going to repeat his crime. Therefore, imprisoning him is pointless. You're talking about revenge, not justice, which is also pointless.
[QUOTE=Sherow_Xx;53013466]Imprisonment exists to protect citizens from the criminal, and to rehabilitate the criminal into not repeating the crime. This criminal isn't going to repeat his crime. Therefore, imprisoning him is pointless. You're talking about revenge, not justice, which is also pointless.[/QUOTE] Wroooong. Prison exists to rehabilitate and also punish, even in the most liberal countries you find a marriage of the two concepts. Read this to gain a perspective (in a American law at least) [URL]http://lawcomic.net/guide/?p=60[/URL]
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;53013328][B]Ah yes, where was he to say that to the tens of thousands he saw put to death and did nothing about[/B]. Justice must be served. Allowing him to avoid sentencing because of his age just shows how little people actually care about the acts of the Nazis.[/QUOTE] Go ahead Rambo, tell us what you would have done if you were him.
[QUOTE=Hauptmann;53013503]Go ahead Rambo, tell us what you would have done if you were him.[/QUOTE] Not volunteered to join the SS like he did.
I'm pretty sure he was aware in 1940, when he joined the administrative branch of the SS, that 2 years later the Holocaust would be put in place and that he would be sent to work in a death camp! Let's throw the fucking cook to jail while we're at it. I'm totally for putting the [I]guards[/I] or the [I]dude pouring the Ziklon B crystals[/I] in the air filters on trial, even after such a long time, but what's happening to Gröning is just petty revenge. He didn't kill anyone, he didn't order people to be executed, he just happened to have been assigned to work in a horrible place.
[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;53013478]Wroooong. Prison exists to rehabilitate and also punish, even in the most liberal countries you find a marriage of the two concepts. Read this to gain a perspective (in a American law at least) [URL]http://lawcomic.net/guide/?p=60[/URL][/QUOTE] Punishment is a form of rehabilitation, though. It doesn't always work, but that's what it's there for. I don't disagree that a large number of people and even legal systems use punishment for revenge, but like I said, revenge is pointless - or as the comic you linked put it, uncivilized. The comic even shows why most of the 'civilized' reasons aren't applicable in practice. The only one I can see here that is even slightly applicable is general deterrence, and that seems pretty inhumane to me considering what's being said about the guy's repeated attempts to get out, giving himself up to the British, speaking out against Holocaust deniers, etc. Do you actually think another Holocaust would be made more likely if we didn't make an example of this guy? Note that this isn't actually an opinion I hold very strongly, so I'm open to the idea that we do need to use punishment as deterrence in this case. I just think people have an eerie tendency to focus on revenge while calling it justice. [editline]29th December 2017[/editline] Also, as a side note, I don't understand why the comic files 'removal' under the supposed 'uncivilized' and unspoken purposes. Personally I'd think that's the primary and most obvious purpose - after all, if you have a dangerous criminal, it doesn't matter what method you want to use to try and change his behavior, you'd still have to keep him away from law-abiding citizens while he undergoes that change.
[QUOTE=Hauptmann;53013537]I'm pretty sure he was aware in 1940, when he joined the administrative branch of the SS, that 2 years later the Holocaust would be put in place and that he would be sent to work in a death camp! Let's throw the fucking cook to jail while we're at it. I'm totally for putting the [I]guards[/I] or the [I]dude pouring the Ziklon B crystals[/I] in the air filters on trial, even after such a long time, but what's happening to Gröning is just petty revenge. He didn't kill anyone, he didn't order people to be executed, he just happened to have been assigned to work in a horrible place.[/QUOTE] I mean, there was the army. And the navy. And the Luftwaffe. Or a factory for building military arms. But no, he joined the SS
I'm sorry but that isn't a crime in itself, just a shitty thing to do. He also joined the Allgemeine SS, wich only had an administrative role, and Gröning said himself that he joined the SS because it would guarantee him to work in the administration while keeping a military aspect to his work. I mean, the dude stood against holocaust deniers but you're (not you in particular) still trying to show how much of a monster he was. I despise the SS more than anyone else, but this guy did nothing that warrants being put on trial, and even less being sentenced to prison.
[QUOTE=Hauptmann;53013639] but this guy did nothing that warrants being put on trial[/QUOTE] Repeating myself from the other thread: [QUOTE=catbarf;52992418]Determining culpability is the [I]entire point[/I] of having a trial. If we decided who was morally responsible and deserves punishment for a crime before it ever went to trial, there'd be no need for the whole elaborate justice system. I mean, you even have that disclaimer of '(to our knowledge)', which is exactly why trials have a discovery phase where evidence is procured. He willingly joined the SS and served at Auschwitz, that's plenty of justification to formally investigate and determine his level of culpability rather than dismissing it as 'eh, he's old and probably did nothing really'. I am not saying 'throw this evil Nazi fuck in prison for the rest of his life', just that there's no consistency in declaring that old war criminals aren't worth pursuing. Those mitigating factors, like his age and degree of non-involvement, should be taken into account during sentencing, not used as excuses to disregard the justice system altogether.[/QUOTE] I can't agree with throwing an old man in prison, so many decades after the fact, for crimes that he was at most aware of rather than directly contributing to, but the usual 'they shouldn't go on trial because it's been a really long time and we don't think they did anything' argument is nonsensical.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;53013584]I mean, there was the army. And the navy. And the Luftwaffe. Or a factory for building military arms. But no, he joined the SS[/QUOTE] He willfully joined the SS at 18, straight out of the Hilter Youth brainwashing which he'd have been subjected to for 4-6 years, this is without taking into account the fact he grew up under Nazi rule and influenced by it on a day to day basis possibly without even knowing. The reality that the SS was essentially full of the dregs that couldnt even get into the army is irrelevant. It's the public perception / teaching of the SS that mattered, and at that time. The SS, was seen as a prestigious branch of the armed servce to be apart of and thus of course it was going to get a bunch of young impressionable youth join it.
[QUOTE=catbarf;53013920]Repeating myself from the other thread: I can't agree with throwing an old man in prison, so many decades after the fact, for crimes that he was at most aware of rather than directly contributing to, but the usual '[B]they shouldn't go on trial because it's been a really long time[/B] and we don't think they did anything' argument is nonsensical.[/QUOTE] I said the exact opposite in this thread and Oskar has already been tried in the 70's and was found not guilty. [QUOTE=Hauptmann;53013537]I'm totally for putting the [I]guards[/I] or the [I]dude pouring the Ziklon B crystals[/I] in the air filters on trial, even after such a long time[/QUOTE]
I like how germany is so dead seat on essentially virtue signalling to the effect of "hey we don't do death camps anymore we promise guys" they're sentencing people who've been previously found innocent of any wrongdoing to prison, knowing he'll die in confinement. The germans just can't fucking help themselves can they.
[QUOTE=Derpalicious;53013510]Not volunteered to join the SS like he did.[/QUOTE] The SS was not some super jew hating force that its made out to be. In fact, the majority of the SS was foreign volunteers, many of them being blacks and Muslims. A lot of volunteers came from France, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Belgium, ect. There was even a few British and American volunteers. The majority of the warcrimes committed by the SS was a very small group, not to say that they were the only faction committing warcrimes though. This guy probably joined the SS to avoid being drafted into the Wehrmacht and being sent to the front lines to die. The SS was a bit more of an elite force but also had a high demand for book keepers and accounting because of that. There was no options for him that didn't involve military service in some capacity. At 18 all men were drafted into the military, or they could go to "pre-military" training, then get sent to the military. This only worsened once war broke out. What it boils down to is that this guy is going to prison because he witnessed a genocide he could do nothing to prevent. He has questionable morals but that is no crime. He was tried and cleared in the 70s, and its very clear that this case is exists for some virtue signalling and head hunting. Its reprehensible to send a man to jail for a crime he wasn't involved with. [editline]29th December 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;53013584]I mean, there was the army. And the navy. And the Luftwaffe. Or a factory for building military arms. But no, he joined the SS[/QUOTE] Die in a trench, drown in a u boat or die in the air or die manning a flak gun. There was no option to go work at a factory. Military service was compulsory in Germany in the 30s and 40s. If he joined the SS, he had a higher chance of putting accounting skills to use as opposed to dying senselessly.
Can you link me those "low warcrime" statistics considering the SS was the branch that had literal death squads, secret police, and ran the concentration camps. I'm finding it hard to just take your word on it.
[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;53014376]post[/QUOTE] The guys own account of how he wound up in the SS does not tally up with the picture you are trying to paint. He gave up his job in a bank and willingly signed up to the SS in 1940 after conscriptinon had taken place, partly because he wanted to do his part for Germanys war effort and partly because Germany had steam rolled through Poland and France 'if the war was that easy you might as well be apart of it' kinda thinking, and I suspect peer pressure / stigma around being a male of fighting age not doing his part played a role in his choice as well. He probably would have been drafted 2 years or so later when the war turned against germany, but that's hindsight.
[QUOTE=Destroyox;53014468]Can you link me those "low warcrime" statistics considering the SS was the branch that had literal death squads, secret police, and ran the concentration camps. I'm finding it hard to just take your word on it.[/QUOTE] Wanna link me to where I said that the SS had a low amount of warcrimes? What you just said literally confirms my point on that topic. [editline]30th December 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Fr3ddi3;53014588]The guys own account of how he wound up in the SS does not tally up with the picture you are trying to paint. He gave up his job in a bank and willingly signed up to the SS in 1940 after conscriptinon had taken place, partly because he wanted to do his part for Germanys war effort and partly because Germany had steam rolled through Poland and France 'if the war was that easy you might as well be apart of it' kinda thinking, and I suspect peer pressure / stigma around being a male of fighting age not doing his part played a role in his choice as well. He probably would have been drafted 2 years or so later when the war turned against germany, but that's hindsight.[/QUOTE] He probably did his compulsory service in the Wehrmacht or in the "summer camp" (sorry, I can't recall the name of the post schooling training) and was able to land a job without being kept in the military before the war really broke out. You didn't have to be a sight seer in 1940 to see that the war wasn't ended with taking over Poland. England and France, 2 major powers at the time, had declared war on Germany and the populace in Germany was gung-ho anti-Bolshevism at the time. You didn't need a crystal ball to see that all out war was on its way, and thay Poland and the nordic nations were test runs. Even if he joined the SS specifically to fight, and landed an undesirable tally counter position, its still not a warcrime. Being in the SS is not a qualifier of being evil or a war criminal.
[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;53014666]Wanna link me to where I said that the SS had a low amount of warcrimes? What you just said literally confirms my point on that topic.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;53014376]The majority of the warcrimes committed by the SS was a very small group, not to say that they were the only faction committing warcrimes though. [/QUOTE] Not trying to call you out on anything but I've literally never heard of this. What small groups are you talking about? The Einsatzgruppen, Gestapo, and Waffen SS divisions like "Das Reich" weren't that big of a minority in the SS.
[QUOTE=Destroyox;53014736]Not trying to call you out on anything but I've literally never heard of this. What small groups are you talking about? The Einsatzgruppen, Gestapo, and Waffen SS divisions like "Das Reich" weren't that big of a minority in the SS.[/QUOTE] The SS numbered near a million, Einsatzgruppen numbered just a few thousand total, and the Gestapo around 25 or 30,000 IIRC. Thats a pretty small number that was doing most of the work. Like I said in the post you're quoting, the majority of the war crimes was committed by a minority of the group. Thats not to say that the rest of the SS was clean, as thats clearly not the case. Most of the divisons, if not all, were responsible for warcrimes in some capacity. Whether it be partizan hunting or participating in mass murders for extra pay. The majority of the SS was simply an elite fighting force that was used as an elite fighting force. They were committed to troubled areas, not to hunt jews, but to fight an enemy.
[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;53014666] post[/QUOTE] Joining the the SS being a crime or not is not an argument im making, iv'e already posted my stance on that. Im contesting the rest of the post because it does the real story a disservice, for lack of a better word. I suggest you read the guy's own accounts from long before this trial. [URL]https://web.archive.org/web/20070302085046/http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,355188,00.html[/URL] In his own words on joining the SS in 1940. "It was spontaneous enthusiasm, a sense of not wanting to be the last one in the game, when the whole thing was practically over." Taking his words at face value, there is no fear of not being in control of his own destiny here. The war was going well for Germany and he wanted in on it before it ended. case closed.
[QUOTE=Fr3ddi3;53014819]Joining the the SS being a crime or not is not an argument im making, iv'e already posted my stance on that. Im contesting the rest of the post because it does the real story a disservice, for lack of a better word. I suggest you read the guy's own accounts from long before this trial. [URL]https://web.archive.org/web/20070302085046/http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,355188,00.html[/URL] In his own words on joining the SS in 1940. "It was spontaneous enthusiasm, a sense of not wanting to be the last one in the game, when the whole thing was practically over." Taking his words at face value, there is no fear of not being in control of his own destiny here. The war was going well for Germany and he wanted in on it before it ended. case closed.[/QUOTE] I wasn't aware of that testimony. Thanks for the link.
[QUOTE=Fr3ddi3;53014819]Joining the the SS being a crime or not is not an argument im making, iv'e already posted my stance on that. Im contesting the rest of the post because it does the real story a disservice, for lack of a better word. I suggest you read the guy's own accounts from long before this trial. [URL]https://web.archive.org/web/20070302085046/http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,355188,00.html[/URL] In his own words on joining the SS in 1940. "It was spontaneous enthusiasm, a sense of not wanting to be the last one in the game, when the whole thing was practically over." Taking his words at face value, there is no fear of not being in control of his own destiny here. The war was going well for Germany and he wanted in on it before it ended. case closed.[/QUOTE] Did he join the SS knowing about the holocaust? Wanting to be a part of the German war effort isn't really a crime, nor is it surprising.
He joined in 1940, so 2 years before the Holocaust took place.
This kind of virtue signalling disgusts me. I can't really agree with the arguments above that Gröning probably just joined SS to avert the gruesome fate of many German conscripts, for a quite good while he did believe that Nazism was for the best. According to his own account of the events, at the time he was more disturbed by the way the Jews were killed at Auschwitz rather than the fact that Jews were being killed. But the way how Gröning describes in his own account how he thought it was a horrible but necessary act makes me think that he was not so unapologetic even back then. When you're caught in a dreadful situation, it is often human nature to lie to yourself that what you're doing is for the best, just to keep yourself afloat. I think Gröning did much the same for a while until he began to denounce Holocaust deniers and Nazism out of deep regret, even if his "contributions" to the Holocaust ultimately amounted to just counting the wealth confiscated from Auschwitz inmates. I digress, however. You can be critical of Gröning's past belief in Nazi ideology, I sure as hell don't agree with it. But besides that, in what world do his actions warrant a sentence more severe than a trip to the POW camp at any point? He was a member of the Schutzstaffel, yes, but he was merely a clerk at Auschwitz, which I don't think counts a war crime. I believe his time as a forced laborer in UK and later opposition to Holocaust denial was more than enough to redeem himself. And even if he had lost all his faith in Nazism by the time he witnessed the atrocities that took place at Auschwitz, what could have he done about it? Not everyone had the luxury of being able to save people like Oskar Schindler did. The morons behind this probably think he should've stood up to his superiors and martyred himself. In other words, died a pointless death because nobody would've been around to witness his defiance and later remember him. If anything, he did more good by surviving considering he went on to denounce neo-nazis and Holocaust deniers.
[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;53014376]The SS was not some super jew hating force that its made out to be. In fact, the majority of the SS was foreign volunteers, [b]many of them being blacks and Muslims.[/b]A lot of volunteers came from France, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Belgium, ect. There was even a few British and American volunteers...[/quote] yeahhh homie, you’re gonna need to provide a citation for that claim.
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