Admin Nicest Slices & an interesting conversation about "hacking" - Rust

I'd say this conversation after I was banned from a server explains it enough. I understand, its their server. I dont care I was banned, but reporting to Gary/VAC is a FALSE STATEMENT and I believe it should carry repercussions. I just spent 40+ hours on this server, and I work full time and have a kid, its my one release at night when all is said and done, my time is valuable to me. (Only things changed here were real life names of my friends) This is the "admins" steam ID [url]http://steamcommunity.com/id/ooWE/[/url] This apparently happened here: "Friendly/PvP Survival US-West" on: 192.200.111.178:28045 Never tell your password to anyone. Nicest Slices: thanks for adding me Nicest Slices: now i can ban all ur friends CutyoFace: why? CutyoFace: Thats all I want to know Nicest Slices: blatany duping. Nicest Slices: i looked @ the logs CutyoFace: No way! Nicest Slices: i can see everything everyones does CutyoFace: Weve been raiding thats all Nicest Slices: and looting threw walls CutyoFace: no way man I swear I just payed $20 for this Nicest Slices: u think im dumb? Nicest Slices: hahaha CutyoFace: No I dont actually CutyoFace: and I love playing your server Nicest Slices: then dont hack Nicest Slices: ur perm. banned CutyoFace: I SWEAR Im not Nicest Slices: go hack on someone elses CutyoFace: FFS man, Im not Nicest Slices: well one of ur guys r Nicest Slices: cuz u raided my base Nicest Slices: and i watched one of u guys CutyoFace: which one> Nicest Slices: loot my shit Nicest Slices: threw the walls CutyoFace: The big tower? CutyoFace: we did that yesterday, used c4 Nicest Slices: Listen Nicest Slices: Cut CutyoFace: If they did ban them I dont want to waste my $$ Nicest Slices: stop talking Nicest Slices: stop talking Nicest Slices: listen Nicest Slices: Raiding is fine Nicest Slices: i dont care Nicest Slices: killin and pvp is fine Nicest Slices: but Nicest Slices: u guys raided my place Nicest Slices: and looted my boxes Nicest Slices: threw the WALL Nicest Slices: im not stupid Nicest Slices: i had invisible admin armor on Nicest Slices: and i watched ur buddy do it Nicest Slices: YOU YOURSELF may have not been duping Nicest Slices: but ur buddy was Nicest Slices: thats why ur all banned. CutyoFace: Strider (****) is a friend in real life to me, he told me about this game, and Ive put in 40_ hrs. into this game. Nicest Slices: Well whoever did it Nicest Slices: got u all banned CutyoFace: handbanana? CutyoFace: if he was doing that Nicest Slices: and ur names/steam id's have been sent to the vac people that r helping /w Rust CutyoFace: or kaos- I cant believe it im pissed Nicest Slices: and u guys will be banned Nicest Slices: Headbanana, Stride, and You have been banned Nicest Slices: i was on the otherside of the wall in invisible armor CutyoFace: Dude, I'm in IT, been gaming since 1993, never cheat. So good luck with that. I think you are just butthurt Nicest Slices: watching u guys break in Nicest Slices: i laughed Nicest Slices: i love being raided Nicest Slices: but justa heads up Nicest Slices: u will be banned Nicest Slices: if u cheat CutyoFace: No, actually, I wont be CutyoFace: Because I havent cheated Nicest Slices: Ok Nicest Slices: well CutyoFace: why would I ? A single father, $20 is a lot of money Nicest Slices: ur notbeing reinvited to the server Nicest Slices: because YOU or your friends Nicest Slices: have been cheating Nicest Slices: i would talk to them Nicest Slices: if i were u Nicest Slices: and ask them why CutyoFace: SO the logs arent specific to the person CutyoFace: I dont see anything that was "duped" CutyoFace: I found a huge palce out east and it had a weak little store house CutyoFace: i busted it down, and we took a TON of stuff far out east Nicest Slices: Ok, well a heads up CutyoFace: We wouldnt need to dupe things. If one of them did, thats pretty bogus that you'd ban all of us. Nicest Slices: I am also a single father Nicest Slices: and 20$ to me Nicest Slices: is a lot Nicest Slices: so if one of my buddies CutyoFace: yes, and Im upset. Nicest Slices: ruined it for me Nicest Slices: i would be pissed Nicest Slices: but as of now CutyoFace: I have a lot of games on this account Nicest Slices: your group has been banned Nicest Slices: and reported to VAC/Gary's Admins Nicest Slices: sorry, and goodluck working this out /w your friends. CutyoFace: I'd like to know who did this rather than a blanket statement w/o proof that someone was doing that. Nicest Slices: I was watching u two guys Nicest Slices: run into my building CutyoFace: Ok, I've saved this convo for my appeal to Steam. I put in a LOT of time on that server and its disingenious to ban a group with no proof of purposeful hacking/etc. Its akin to a false statement. Nicest Slices: u blew 3 of my doors Nicest Slices: and went to my last door Nicest Slices: and looted my shit out CutyoFace: When? I was off at midnight last night Nicest Slices: without opening the door CutyoFace: when was this? CutyoFace: because I agree thats BS if they did that Nicest Slices: You names along with other names have been puton the hackers liston the Rust servers already Nicest Slices: so u can dispute it there CutyoFace: When did this happen? Nicest Slices is now Offline. CutyoFace: Im not trying to dispute it here, actually. You are like a bad business owner

To the best of my knowledge: - there is no way for admins to be invisible - there are no server logs for player actions - you cannot "report" people to VAC So I think the guy you spoke to is full of shit. Just move your group to a new server, cut your losses and hope the new admins are more honest.

VAC only bans if it automatically detects cheating. So him saying "you will be banned because i sent yo names yo VAC" is a false statement. And Garry doesn't ban people from his games. Well, that's all I know.

[QUOTE=brokengod;43405422]To the best of my knowledge: - there is no way for admins to be invisible - there are no server logs for player actions - you cannot "report" people to VAC So I think the guy you spoke to is full of shit. Just move your group to a new server, cut your losses and hope the new admins are more honest.[/QUOTE] Admins can be invisible, there's some sort of invisi armor that exists and I've seen it. As far as the logs go, I don't fully believe it either as Im sure they're pretty vague at the moment. The Report VAC thing I haven't heard of.

Thanks for the replies guys. Long time gamer here (PC gaming since 1989) and I respect the development process completely, and I LOVE this game. I'm pretty upset this happened, though. We spent a great deal of time building and accumulating lots of great things, we had no reason to do any of that garbage. I mean, whats the damn point? My time is valueable and spending it cheating in an Alpha?! I mean, its juvenile. Anyway, Im rambling, Im just upset. [url]http://steamcommunity.com/id/Amebix[/url]

[QUOTE=brokengod;43405422]To the best of my knowledge: - there is no way for admins to be invisible - there are no server logs for player actions - you cannot "report" people to VAC So I think the guy you spoke to is full of shit. Just move your group to a new server, cut your losses and hope the new admins are more honest.[/QUOTE] The guy is full of shit. It seems to me he is in fact got sand in his you know what. There is a way where an admin can go damn near invis. It just shows their head without a body floating. I saw it first hand on a pve server I was playing on. You are right there is no report feature to VAC and there definitely no server logs for player actions at the moment. If it were that simple people would have been able to ban hackers already from their server but yet here we are still hackers being worse than a roach infestation. As brokengod said move your group to another server eventually with a dickhead like that running a server people will get tired of his shit and that server will die.

I *did* however just spend 1hr writing professional, kind, and verbose letters to [email]contact@facepunchstudios.com[/email] (I know, its probably futile) - and to Steam. What garbage. Ugh, how do I fill up 20 large boxes in a steel fortress behind 20 metal doors on a 30 min run away from town again? Sigh.

Would it still be possible that someone may have impersonated him by taking on his name? I've seen people take on the names of others before, and I've seen people ban with names instead of ID's before im pretty sure. Not impossible, but now that I think of it, it doesn't make sense.

I smell hurt butt. I'd just find another server dude.

Move servers OP, this guy is an idiot. I play on rustlockedbox.com's server "The Locked Box" and I'm very satisfied with the admins on there, so keep searching for a server that doesn't have childish admins looking to powertrip over being raided.

[quote] Nicest Slices: i had invisible admin armor on Nicest Slices: and i watched ur buddy do it [/quote] What a retarded admin. If a player can loot boxes through walls, he can also see 'invisible' admins. And if a admin was actually there, that cheater wouldn't continue looting through walls. Get to another server because that admin talks shit.

Admins CAN become entirely invisible. Just to clear that up. You can still see the name above their head if you're close by. Personally I tent to keep the helmet unequipped, so my head is floating around, however admins CAN become entirely invisible. Also, there are no logs that show player activity... at least not in very much detail, so that part is definitely BS.

[QUOTE=Sievers808;43405610]Admins CAN become entirely invisible. Just to clear that up. You can still see the name above their head if you're close by. Personally I tent to keep the helmet unequipped, so my head is floating around, however admins CAN become entirely invisible. Also, there are no logs that show player activity... at least not in very much detail, so that part is definitely BS.[/QUOTE] Yeah. So I dunno if any of my other guys would do this, but *I* certainly didn't. We scored a HUGE horde by accident when I was scouting very far east, was only protected by a wood door, we managed to lump it 30 mins east from there, and would make 2 hr runs (round trip) into outskirts to raid. I was really looking forward to having nice gear and having fun tonight, but I guess its back to freakin' square one. Sigh. [editline]3rd January 2014[/editline] After talking to other users on this server, this is definitely an abusive admin who is confirmed to: spawns c4 to raid abuses teleport [editline]3rd January 2014[/editline] [editline]3rd January 2014[/editline] Oh, and this: CutyoFace: yeah us too CutyoFace: weird lyndonguitar: im out of there CutyoFace: yeah ours is like 20 doors deep lyndonguitar: yeah CutyoFace: was lyndonguitar: actually lyndonguitar: when nicest lyndonguitar: teleported to our base lyndonguitar: he told us to follow him lyndonguitar: and we raided lyndonguitar: we saw he was spawning c4s lyndonguitar: to raid bases CutyoFace: facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1342686 lyndonguitar: and he knew where bases were lyndonguitar: 1st response shows it lyndonguitar: admin full of shit CutyoFace: sigh lyndonguitar: u should show this to him lmao CutyoFace: do it, post it to him lyndonguitar: im afraid i might get banned if i try to piss him off in anyway lyndonguitar: i would probably tell my friends to switch server though lyndonguitar: especially when our server gets raided magically again lyndonguitar: our base*

Admins can go 100% invisible, I use it for investigating a user, if I suspect or had reports about him not playing fair.

What he is saying is complete BS, just find a new server.

Hey Nicest Slices here Heres the deal. This guy raided my base while I was online. This base is in the middle of the roaded area and I has announced to the server that the FIRST person find me gets all the loot inside of my base. Let me say this again. I ANNOUNCED A BOUNTY OF MYSELF FOR FUN!! I was sitting in my base with a shotgun ready, he got to the room I was in and they hit my metal door with a C4. What sucks for them was they ran out and couldn't finish off the door. I heard them all run out and I waited for them to clear the house. I looked into my boxes to get my Kevlar Outfit and noticed EVERYTHING.. EVERYTHING was gone. How how the hell can they stand outside of my fucking room and still loot my items. I had then followed them around /w Admin Armor (invisible armor) and i noticed their base was the size of three fucking skyscrapers wide. This being said. How can they RUN from base to base with a SHIT TON of C4 and have only been on server for 2-3 days. So for all the fucking twleve year olds in here that DONT know your shit? Don't bother coming to our server. Bottom line.

Yes, they can. And this server will be on notice until NINxSIN (whom I see is viewing this right now) its rectified. Heres my last communication, just a moment ago. our server. Bottom line. Nicest Slices: just a heads u Nicest Slices: up Nicest Slices: u did cheat Nicest Slices: little prick CutyoFace: No I didnt Nicest Slices: nice try tho CutyoFace: actually Nicest Slices: ACTUALLY Nicest Slices: u fucking did CutyoFace: Oh how so Nicest Slices: and dont slander my fucking name CutyoFace: prove it Nicest Slices: or server Nicest Slices: when ur little 12 year old buddies CutyoFace: You are so fucking full of shit Nicest Slices: want to ruin the game for other Nicest Slices: so suck my fucking dick CutyoFace: I'm 31, want my Facebook? CutyoFace: Want it? CutyoFace: Ill invite you Nicest Slices is now Offline.

Bottom line is, this KID and his KIDDIE friends got busted, banned, and will soon be VAC banned for using a fucking hack on an ALPHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Our server has a strong 40 people who have loved our server for about week now DUE TO NO ADMIN ABUSE!!!!!!!!!! We hate hackers, dupers, cheaters whatever. This new public dupe going around is ruining the game and our admins are NOT putting up /w it. want to hack on our server? Enjoy the perm ban along /w a report. GG [editline]3rd January 2014[/editline] Want my facebook? Proven 12 year old. Get a fucking life kid.

[QUOTE=RLH222;43407360]Bottom line is, this KID and his KIDDIE friends got busted, banned, and will soon be VAC banned for using a fucking hack on an ALPHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Our server has a strong 40 people who have loved our server for about week now DUE TO NO ADMIN ABUSE!!!!!!!!!! We hate hackers, dupers, cheaters whatever. This new public dupe going around is ruining the game and our admins are NOT putting up /w it. Ah, so this is you. You are mad because I raided your cache of DUPED ITEMS. You act incredibly unprofessional for a so-called admin. Admin abuse right here at its finest. No hacking was done, no duping (maybe the items we raided from you were?) and yes, I hate cheaters MORE THAN YOU. Why? Because YOU. No, this server has been down for most of the past week. I put in 40+ hours on here because I like the game. Stop being a liar. And for a MARRIED 22 year old, slices, you act like a child. want to hack on our server? Enjoy the perm ban along /w a report. GG[/QUOTE] [editline]3rd January 2014[/editline] Ah, so this is you. You are mad because I raided your cache of DUPED ITEMS. You act incredibly unprofessional for a so-called admin. Admin abuse right here at its finest. No hacking was done, no duping (maybe the items we raided from you were?) and yes, I hate cheaters MORE THAN YOU. Why? Because YOU. No, this server has been down for most of the past week. I put in 40+ hours on here because I like the game. Stop being a liar. And for a MARRIED 22 year old, slices, you act like a child. Uh, click my facebook link. I'm a 31 y/o male, live in Flagstaff, AZ. You are the one hiding behind childish words and admin abuse.

[QUOTE=RLH222;43407360]Bottom line is, this KID and his KIDDIE friends got busted, banned, and will soon be VAC banned for using a fucking hack on an ALPHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Our server has a strong 40 people who have loved our server for about week now DUE TO NO ADMIN ABUSE!!!!!!!!!! We hate hackers, dupers, cheaters whatever. This new public dupe going around is ruining the game and our admins are NOT putting up /w it. want to hack on our server? Enjoy the perm ban along /w a report. GG [editline]3rd January 2014[/editline] Want my facebook? Proven 12 year old. Get a fucking life kid.[/QUOTE] Sounds like your server has some nice amount of admin abusers. Banning people because you get mad over your stuff getting stolen? Where did you report him btw? GG.

"This guy raided my base while I was online. This base is in the middle of the roaded area and I has announced to the server that the FIRST person find me gets all the loot inside of my base. Let me say this again. I ANNOUNCED A BOUNTY OF MYSELF FOR FUN!!" didnt see that. I never raid alone. The loot I found wasnt inside a base. I only started using c4 recently, and our guy crafts it. We got a load of stuff that I'll gladly show you where it was, behind a wooden door. And you probably put it there. And we dont have a base thats a skyscraper. Dude. You are just making up this entire story. [editline]3rd January 2014[/editline] I reported at contact@facepunchstudios and on steam (click help, follow the obvious routes) And I found the ACTUAL admin, NINxSIN (whom seems professional and reasonable) and talked to him. *sigh* I just want to play...

CutyoFace: no way man I swear I just payed $20 for this 50 hours on record. Must really like the game. 30 years old my ass. You act like your 12. Go cheat somewhere else you fucking prick. MAD CUZ YOU GOT BUSTED

"CutyoFace: no way man I swear I just payed $20 for this 50 hours on record. Must really like the game. 30 years old my ass. You act like your 12. Go cheat somewhere else you fucking prick. MAD CUZ YOU GOT BUSTED" Wow, showing our true colors, are we? You are even mis-quoting me in the stuff you are making up. The convo is above, apeaks for itself. Yeah, I like the game a lot. I like like I'm 12? How so? Because I refuse to be abused by someone that obviously is a power-tripping megalomaniac hypocrite?

Hey mang, if you and your group want a better server without abusive admins, try mine. [US Dallas]Instacraft/PvP/NoSleep. IP - 216.172.106.90:28045 I would link our server forum post but I'm on my phone at work lol.

You both act like some fucking 12 year olds, First: RLH222, reporting someone to vac wont help. The only thing that you are doing there is wasting time, if you are so stupid to abuse on a server where you became admin or if you bought admin you are wasting your time, you are supposed to help the users of the server, not fucking ban them and later on tell them it said they cheated in a fucking log when multiple users of this forum has stated that it is not possible to find this kind of information you claim you have from the logs. You would seriously be more useful as a cumbucket instead of an admin. Now for CutYoFace, if you have a problem with an abusive admin tell a higher ranked admin / the owner ( if rlh222 isn't the owner of the server ) that a certain admin is abusing, this would be more useful as the admin would loose his rank and it would be cleared up earlier, and if that didn't work you have actually done the right thing. Posting this thread as a notification to rust players that there is an admin abusive asshole on the server so other players doesn't need to talk to / be abusived by a fuckwad like him.

[QUOTE=CutYoFace;43405340]I'd say this conversation after I was banned from a server explains it enough. I understand, its their server. I dont care I was banned, but reporting to Gary/VAC is a FALSE STATEMENT and I believe it should carry repercussions. I just spent 40+ hours on this server, and I work full time and have a kid, its my one release at night when all is said and done, my time is valuable to me. (Only things changed here were real life names of my friends) This is the "admins" steam ID [url]http://steamcommunity.com/id/ooWE/[/url] This apparently happened here: "Friendly/PvP Survival US-West" on: 192.200.111.178:28045 Never tell your password to anyone. Nicest Slices: thanks for adding me Nicest Slices: now i can ban all ur friends CutyoFace: why? CutyoFace: Thats all I want to know Nicest Slices: blatany duping. Nicest Slices: i looked @ the logs CutyoFace: No way! Nicest Slices: i can see everything everyones does CutyoFace: Weve been raiding thats all Nicest Slices: and looting threw walls CutyoFace: no way man I swear I just payed $20 for this Nicest Slices: u think im dumb? Nicest Slices: hahaha CutyoFace: No I dont actually CutyoFace: and I love playing your server Nicest Slices: then dont hack Nicest Slices: ur perm. banned CutyoFace: I SWEAR Im not Nicest Slices: go hack on someone elses CutyoFace: FFS man, Im not Nicest Slices: well one of ur guys r Nicest Slices: cuz u raided my base Nicest Slices: and i watched one of u guys CutyoFace: which one> Nicest Slices: loot my shit Nicest Slices: threw the walls CutyoFace: The big tower? CutyoFace: we did that yesterday, used c4 Nicest Slices: Listen Nicest Slices: Cut CutyoFace: If they did ban them I dont want to waste my $$ Nicest Slices: stop talking Nicest Slices: stop talking Nicest Slices: listen Nicest Slices: Raiding is fine Nicest Slices: i dont care Nicest Slices: killin and pvp is fine Nicest Slices: but Nicest Slices: u guys raided my place Nicest Slices: and looted my boxes Nicest Slices: threw the WALL Nicest Slices: im not stupid Nicest Slices: i had invisible admin armor on Nicest Slices: and i watched ur buddy do it Nicest Slices: YOU YOURSELF may have not been duping Nicest Slices: but ur buddy was Nicest Slices: thats why ur all banned. CutyoFace: Strider (****) is a friend in real life to me, he told me about this game, and Ive put in 40_ hrs. into this game. Nicest Slices: Well whoever did it Nicest Slices: got u all banned CutyoFace: handbanana? CutyoFace: if he was doing that Nicest Slices: and ur names/steam id's have been sent to the vac people that r helping /w Rust CutyoFace: or kaos- I cant believe it im pissed Nicest Slices: and u guys will be banned Nicest Slices: Headbanana, Stride, and You have been banned Nicest Slices: i was on the otherside of the wall in invisible armor CutyoFace: Dude, I'm in IT, been gaming since 1993, never cheat. So good luck with that. I think you are just butthurt Nicest Slices: watching u guys break in Nicest Slices: i laughed Nicest Slices: i love being raided Nicest Slices: but justa heads up Nicest Slices: u will be banned Nicest Slices: if u cheat CutyoFace: No, actually, I wont be CutyoFace: Because I havent cheated Nicest Slices: Ok Nicest Slices: well CutyoFace: why would I ? A single father, $20 is a lot of money Nicest Slices: ur notbeing reinvited to the server Nicest Slices: because YOU or your friends Nicest Slices: have been cheating Nicest Slices: i would talk to them Nicest Slices: if i were u Nicest Slices: and ask them why CutyoFace: SO the logs arent specific to the person CutyoFace: I dont see anything that was "duped" CutyoFace: I found a huge palce out east and it had a weak little store house CutyoFace: i busted it down, and we took a TON of stuff far out east Nicest Slices: Ok, well a heads up CutyoFace: We wouldnt need to dupe things. If one of them did, thats pretty bogus that you'd ban all of us. Nicest Slices: I am also a single father Nicest Slices: and 20$ to me Nicest Slices: is a lot Nicest Slices: so if one of my buddies CutyoFace: yes, and Im upset. Nicest Slices: ruined it for me Nicest Slices: i would be pissed Nicest Slices: but as of now CutyoFace: I have a lot of games on this account Nicest Slices: your group has been banned Nicest Slices: and reported to VAC/Gary's Admins Nicest Slices: sorry, and goodluck working this out /w your friends. CutyoFace: I'd like to know who did this rather than a blanket statement w/o proof that someone was doing that. Nicest Slices: I was watching u two guys Nicest Slices: run into my building CutyoFace: Ok, I've saved this convo for my appeal to Steam. I put in a LOT of time on that server and its disingenious to ban a group with no proof of purposeful hacking/etc. Its akin to a false statement. Nicest Slices: u blew 3 of my doors Nicest Slices: and went to my last door Nicest Slices: and looted my shit out CutyoFace: When? I was off at midnight last night Nicest Slices: without opening the door CutyoFace: when was this? CutyoFace: because I agree thats BS if they did that Nicest Slices: You names along with other names have been puton the hackers liston the Rust servers already Nicest Slices: so u can dispute it there CutyoFace: When did this happen? Nicest Slices is now Offline. CutyoFace: Im not trying to dispute it here, actually. You are like a bad business owner[/QUOTE] Working on it

I'm sure others can confirm - if a storage box/Furnace/Workbench is placed on a wall with a bit sticking through a wall it can be looted/used Its probably a bug..

@splitox NINxSIN is the admin owner, he is working on it. I advertised that I would rescind my report(s) if this is rectified. I wont address your subjective name-calling, though. There isn't really anywhere else to post that I haven't already.

[QUOTE=RLH222;43407522]CutyoFace: no way man I swear I just payed $20 for this 50 hours on record. Must really like the game. 30 years old my ass. You act like your 12. Go cheat somewhere else you fucking prick. MAD CUZ YOU GOT BUSTED[/QUOTE] He acts like hes 12? Look at your rebuttals and pedantic posts attempting to rectify a situation in which YOU are wrong. You're nothing but trash kid. Get off these forums and quit acting like you're a single father. Attempting to even act like you're a dad is about as stupid as the next 12 year old twat who waltzes into these forums to justify something that if it were honest, wouldn't need to be justified. Talk like you're big and bad but really it shows. The 12 year old here is you.. and quite frankly, and personally... you don't deserve to run a server. You don't deserve to even have admin on one with your incessant bullshit and blatant misuse of the functions given to you. I really hope some people step up and blacklist your server. I for one wont ever play in it. You're mad that you got raided like the rest of us... here's an idea: Grow a pair and play the game. Whiny little bitch like the rest of these 12 year old admins who think they're divine in every way, shape, and form. Cutyoface: Ignore this kid and move to a different server. It would suit you to not even attempt to justify yourself and your position. Just do that by moving to a different server, and spreading the word about his blatant abuse of power and sheer idiocy on these forums. I'm a father, and I can tell you right now this kid is definitely not one. Doesn't have the mental capacity to deal with children nor people CLEARLY.

Why don't you just find another server to play on? Eventually this asshole will just be left with fellow dupers and hackers and then even they will leave cuz its no fun to hack other hackers. This server will die on it's own if the admins are like this, why not just leave it at that?