Hi all, I posted this on Dev Log 19, but I think it fits better here :D I also did a few images to show better the idea:
The Idea I suggest would be something like:
For example: [B]M button for map[/B].
0.-[B]When you got nothing[/B] (fresh spawn)[B] If you open the map you see all black.[/B] (fog of war)
[url=http://postimg.org/image/t1cavetz5/][img]http://s24.postimg.org/t1cavetz5/001jpg.jpg[/img][/url]
[I](click to see full image)[/I]
1.-[B]Once you got the stuff to make a map, and you do it[/B]....
... if you open the map you will just see the areas you already have discover (after the crafting of the map) but [B]you just see the explored terrain[/B], NOT your location.
[url=http://postimg.org/image/m0glek0xz/][img]http://s7.postimg.org/m0glek0xz/002jpg.jpg[/img][/url]
[I](click to see full image)[/I]
2.- [B]Once you got the map the next step would be to craft a compass.[/B]
Once a compass is done, then, every time you open the map you should see on the map: "fog of war" (places not discovered), explorated areas[B] and your location[/B]. [I](for it you should had on the inventory the map and the compass)[/I]
[url=http://postimg.org/image/gierbmjn1/][img]http://s14.postimg.org/gierbmjn1/003jpg.jpg[/img][/url]
[I](click to see full image)[/I]
*If your compass gets broken (a chance to be broken when you get hit by something, or just by long use without repair it) [B]You will miss that "signal/waypoint" on your map telling you where re you[/B].
If you lost your map, then you will just see fog of war (and your location signal, if you got a compass... anyways you will see all black so that dont will help you... just to know if you re moving north/south... whatever.
Aditional details for this Map system:
*Maps [B]should be able to get looted [/B]from corpses.
*Maps [B]should have the chance to be "copied"[/B] also can be though about add something like "from pen to printing machine" (to make better quality copies or just faster copy time per map)
*Maps [B]can be burned/destroyed[/B] (to avoid the enemy are following you get your map once you gets killed)
*The compass & map should also allow to "add notes and waypoints to the map", maibe[B] if you got also a Pen, or a Pencil [/B]for example.
The Explored Area and the Waypoints owns to the map, so [B]watch what you write in there or you will set a big arrow to your base If anybody kills you and get your map[/B]. When you copy a map It should copy always both: the Explored area and the Waypoints, and no way to remove waypoints once you placed it. This way people can also think about explore an area, dont add waypoint to it and later use that copy to sell "white maps"(only the terrain) that other players might find useful and maibe and his own wayponts in there. The player should have the chance to left one default Waypoint icon or [B]use some other icons[/B] like: "any skull, cross, shelter, etc.." [B]to easily understand it[/B]. (add alternative waypoint icons)
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This idea are a bit based on how the "bookmarks" work in EvE online.
Of course, to be aplied this idea on procedurally generated maps, must be added a "system" on the game that takes the 3d Info of the map terrain (rocks, biomes textures, water) and makes a 2D version of it (that will be used as map), In the map should only appear terrain references, nothing like other houses, resources or animals... (for that a player must manually place a waypoint in the map)
I think, this idea can be perfectly added to the game, just codding, should not affect at performance (maibe just a bit more time to generate the map the first time on the servers or a few seconds more when a player joins in the server to load the 2D map aswell)
The reference images, as some of you will know have been done using [B]Metro 2033 Stuff[/B] (PC Game) with a map and one Rust Screenshot. ^^
I think its important to have any way to locate yourself on a game where there will be procedurally generated maps. However, I dont think this should be able to be crafted (map & compass) the first hours you play on one server... one way to limit this can be:
-Add special recourses for it. For exaple you can add you require "ferrite" to make a compass or that you need "graphite" to make a pencil (the way to make this a an uncommon resource can be done that just one of every 60 rocks you gather from rocks re this mineral)
-Add different qualities of maps & compass, so will be unnacurate and will decay faster at lower lvls.
[B]Thats all, what do you think about it?[/B] :zoid:
Great presentation, the idea could be refined to be more fun and work better with procedural terrain generation (because things just won't work that easily with procedural maps)
I like the idea people always suggest of adding charcoal to the equation, having everything black and white sketched. It's a little unreasonable to assume you can produce colored maps with what you possess in rust. But I guess crushed berries were the first dyes...
[QUOTE=leminlyme;45573089]Great presentation, the idea could be refined to be more fun and work better with procedural terrain generation (because things just won't work that easily with procedural maps)
I like the idea people always suggest of adding charcoal to the equation, having everything black and white sketched. It's a little unreasonable to assume you can produce colored maps with what you possess in rust. But I guess crushed berries were the first dyes...[/QUOTE]
Thanks for your comment!
Obviously the reference images were just to show the idea, I think the way would look better would be a white paper with black drawings on it. Was trying to get some good map for it, but the one I used was the better I found.
About the things about procedural generation... I know thats the harder thing of this, however, I guess that If they can make a program/way the own game creates procedural generation, at the same time, they can add the coding necesary so will render also a 2D image. I think there would be any way to (for example) set any ID to diferent 3D objects of the landscape (like the rock models 001, the trees 002, the grass texture 003, the snow texture 004...) and make 2D elements, colours (for the textures) and 2D small pictures related to every ID, then the "map generator" should take the coords from the proceduraly generated 3d Map stuff, and place the images acording to that ID and those coords to make a full map.
Example with rocks/mountains [IMG]http://ts4.mm.bing.net/th?id=HN.608051340802918928&pid=1.7[/IMG]
Of course, the colours of diferent textures can be reserved to just the highest quality maps so the more standards will just have the most basic info. Same way, can be done that low quality Compasses instead of show your position as one waypoint exactly on your place, you will see a Circle saying you are on any place inside that circle (biggest circle for worst compasses and smaller cicle/ exactly waypoint for better ones)
A+ on presentation
the compass is not needed sunrises in east sets in west and same for moon and now i believe that moss only grows on the north face of rocks, there are shadows from yourself and other world models (trees and rocks)
and also the stars are static so they can be used as way points,
there are mountains and lakes that can be used as land makes for the time being till there are building and roads put in (if they happen). so most of this stuff is not needed but i like the concept but just not for rust, although i do agree these are easy to craft, and something like this will end up in game,
But in all honesty, these are not needed the tools for navigation are already implemented into the game,
as for the procedural map after server is first run the map does not change or grow (an ever growing map is a misconception in this games case) the map ATM is 8000m x 8000m and fixed so making a map should be easier than making one for say Minecraft. maybe just using the biome terrain as the map.
[QUOTE=kulan;45574314]A+ on presentation
the compass is not needed sunrises in east sets in west and same for moon and now i believe that moss only grows on the north face of rocks, there are shadows from yourself and other world models (trees and rocks)
and also the stars are static so they can be used as way points,
there are mountains and lakes that can be used as land makes for the time being till there are building and roads put in (if they happen). so most of this stuff is not needed but i like the concept but just not for rust, although i do agree these are easy to craft, and something like this will end up in game,
But in all honesty, these are not needed the tools for navigation are already implemented into the game,
as for the procedural map after server is first run the map does not change or grow (an ever growing map is a misconception in this games case) the map ATM is 8000m x 8000m and fixed so making a map should be easier than making one for say Minecraft. maybe just using the biome terrain as the map.[/QUOTE]
I Know that this isnt required to play the game at all. But I think Rust more than just about survival, Its more about make progress in a destroyed and dangerous world, by both creatures and the "ausence of law" (anarchy)
If we re going to make things that require "knowledge" (example a pistol) I think a easier way to move should be added. I try to add also its own bad things so each player can think about "I got the skill to move around without a map, so If I get hunted noone will know from where I come" or just the opposite.
Its the way I see it. Obviously If facepunch dont like it we will never see it on the game. :downs:
Thanks for your comment
I don't like that you want people to spawn with them, that ain't rust. I'd rather see them as a difficult item to craft or only found at rad zones and what not. Make it a sort of end game thing to do with your clan or what ever and be able to display a number of maps hanging on a wall or something creating a larger map.
As for your poll responses... is engrish really that hard.
[QUOTE=Travis10123;45578766]I don't like that you want people to spawn with them, that ain't rust. I'd rather see them as a difficult item to craft or only found at rad zones and what not. Make it a sort of end game thing to do with your clan or what ever and be able to display a number of maps hanging on a wall or something creating a larger map.
As for your poll responses... is engrish really that hard.[/QUOTE]
Please read the full post to comment and vote.
[QUOTE]"I think its important to have any way to locate yourself on a game where there will be procedurally generated maps. However, I dont think this should be able to be crafted (map & compass) the first hours you play on one server..."[/QUOTE]
*And yes, my english Its bad :suicide:
[editline]3rd August 2014[/editline]
What I dont understand here Its How people can think that moving this way would be so easy?
-If you dont make a map (and you require things 4 it) You play the same way you do now.
-If you got a map with details and other player takes it, You will have problems
-Using a map without compass.... Do you get how hard will be imagine where are you in a 2D map where the icons are all the same? Its easy to get lost in the game looking at the 3D enviroment and dont will be it on a map? (that will got less details)...
Im confused... someones wanna pure simulator game and other ones wanna pure arcade game. I think the game its a mix (and thats what I tryed to do with this "Map system")
Im guessing, at the end, all people will use the Coord system on websites like they do now... (That looks really "simulator":suicide:)
There is an Item editor for this game, and i expect once this game is somewhere near finished server admins will be able to add items they want on their server. I see Gmod style servers needing item packs Via steam workshop or an in-game interface.
item editor link > [url]http://radmin.elasticbeanstalk.com/item/list/approved/consumable/[/url]
So I bet there will be servers with navigation equipment and other aids for inexperienced survivalists.
Here's an idea maybe server Admins could choose the difficulty of the server like
Noob server: Includes map/compass and a starter pack of basics and NPC's are at 50% health and do 50% damage.
Adept server: map with (fog of war) but No compass, just start with a rock, Ncp's have no disabilities
Survivalist Server: No map no campass, start with just rock, and NPC's have 50% extra health and damage
I started a [url=http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1413289]Thread[/url] about navigational system earlier this week.
I do like the concept, i do not like the fact that the map is colored AND that it pinpoint.
A part from that we're pretty much on the same page !
I mean it should be more rudimental but it's really nice.
The basic modification should be : not that black fog of war but it should looks like a piece of white paper. The more you walk and explore, the more black on white stuff they will be drawn on map, and the compass should be a different item to make it a bit harder to use.. I'm totally pro this idea, but it should be quite difficult tu use it anyway.
[QUOTE=Ther0;45579897]I started a [url=http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1413289]Thread[/url] about navigational system earlier this week.
I do like the concept, i do not like the fact that the map is colored AND that it pinpoint.
A part from that we're pretty much on the same page !
I mean it should be more rudimental but it's really nice.
The basic modification should be : not that black fog of war but it should looks like a piece of white paper. The more you walk and explore, the more black on white stuff they will be drawn on map, and the compass should be a different item to make it a bit harder to use.. I'm totally pro this idea, but it should be quite difficult tu use it anyway.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I spoke about it:
[QUOTE]Obviously the reference images were just to show the idea, I think the way would look better would be a white paper with black drawings on it. Was trying to get some good map for it, but the one I used was the better I found.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Of course, the colours of diferent textures can be reserved to just the highest quality maps so the more standards will just have the most basic info. Same way, can be done that low quality Compasses instead of show your position as one waypoint exactly on your place, you will see a Circle saying you are on any place inside that circle (biggest circle for worst compasses and smaller cicle/ exactly waypoint for better ones)[/QUOTE]
That were some ways I think this can be balanced, probably there are a lot more to do it :smile:
Good Presentation though i think the map should [B]purely[/B] be [B]Charcoal on White Paper[/B], this makes the Paper used more often as you could make it that the Paper only covers a certain amount of mapping area, so you would then [B]need[/B] to make more paper.
I really only like the idea of a map purely from from a Cartography point, I'd like to map areas just for fun. But i dont need a map or a compass.
Add a compass ( I use sun ) and or map would aid new spawn and vets well. Both in Legacy and Experimental, however Exp has too much broken in game to add even a porta potty right now.
Great idea.
Best idea Ive seen so far. I think this is a must in Rust Experimental. But one trouble here, each seed is different, so it would be interested to know how they can automatically generate maps for each seed. Something perhaps Garry and the team can answer if they find this idea interesting.
[QUOTE=Manipulator94;46294938]But one trouble here, each seed is different, so it would be interested to know how they can automatically generate maps for each seed.[/QUOTE]
How would this be particularly difficult? Minecraft does it.
I don't think it should auto-fill like a fog of war clearing. That's a crutch for people who don't want to learn navigation.
The map should never show your location or the location of others. It should require some participation on the player's part to fill in.
If you can craft a gun you should be able to craft a compass. Simple as that.
If you disagree with the map, don't use one. If you prefer to use the sun as a compass, use it. However, if you are able to find guns, supplies, clothing, tools, food, and craft houses and items from scratch, you should be able to make a compass (and absolutely make a map). Not a big deal, and for anyone who prefers to use the sun and their memory as their map and compass, please, by all means, do that.
maps would be incredible. i really like that you,v left room to add stuff to the maps. i made a similar post a few weeks ago its great im not the only person who is pro maps.
your concept art is really good.
and the idea for burning the maps is awesome.
I like the idea of the last minuet frenzied attempt to burn your map or be killed before you manage it.
[url]http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1429974&p=46193227#post46193227[/url]
[QUOTE=elixwhitetail;46294973]How would this be particularly difficult? Minecraft does it.
I don't think it should auto-fill like a fog of war clearing. That's a crutch for people who don't want to learn navigation.[/QUOTE]
The fog of war its just a way to make you understand how should it worked, just change the fog of war by "white fog of war", and would be like if your character would be drawing the map while moves on the map.
I dont think the map should be very easy to understand. for example, in the reference images you cant see it, but I think you should see the map of your hands always from your point of view (so that means the top part of the map its not the north, or not always) so compass will be more usefull. I also think the map should not be enough detailed to really understand quickly where you are. Should be some 2D elements used a lot of times and that should be confused enough to be sure about that.
I just think people dont really wants to set "by hand" every icon of a tree or a rock/mountain in a map, I think that should be done for really interesting things like to locate houses, enemies, drops, etc. (at the end of the day, if you can lost your map, I dont think it would be a good Idea, maibe the first 2 matches, but the thirth one I would get bored of making a detailled map I will lost)
[editline]23rd October 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=grizzlyhuggs;46303584]maps would be incredible. i really like that you,v left room to add stuff to the maps. i made a similar post a few weeks ago its great im not the only person who is pro maps.
your concept art is really good.
and the idea for burning the maps is awesome.
I like the idea of the last minuet frenzied attempt to burn your map or be killed before you manage it.
[url]http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1429974&p=46193227#post46193227[/url][/QUOTE]
Hey I already saw your work some time ago also I loved it, I love finally Rust Devs are thinking about this mechanics about maps, because I think its the next Step.
About the "burn map" I think the best would be to give to that action a custom key.
Now that I saw the new "map system" that is ingame I cant stop thinking why in the devlog this suggestion was mentioned looked like was not good enough and too easy, and that would be much more better idea to absolutely draw all by hand to now find that there is in game a system really similar the one I was suggesting... :tinfoil:
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