How to balance ladders (suggestion) - Rust

What if they made it so you [B]can't[/B] place it on other people's bases but they still aren't blocked by TC. So you find a rock base. You are building blocked. You place ladders up the side of the rock, because they aren't affected by the TC. You can't place ladders up the side of the base but now you have access to his base. You can now c4 the building. No more ¨Unraidable bases¨. I know you are all tired of these god damn posts but, well I think this is a good idea. Tell me if I fucked up.

seems like a bandaid to fix a bandaid to be honest.

Ladders are not building elements, it should not be a problem if someone places it somewhere, as you should be able to take it in your inventory with a button press. 2nd ladder post today.

There's no such thing as an "unraidable base", for starters. Ignoring that, a simple fix to ladders is to give them a stability factor. Make it so they have to be leaned against a building instead of magically sticking to whatever you place them on. Allow a maximum of 2-3 ladders to be stacked together, but require a second player to hold the base so it doesn't topple over. Bring level ground into play; if you place your ladder on uneven ground, it's more likely to topple over the higher you go. Or just do what I do: stick to multiple small 1x2 or 1x3 armored bases scattered all over the map.

Ladders are fine the way they are. Raiding and defending are both possible and imo defending is still much easier than raiding.

i like the ladders but i wouldnt make them able to stick to everything they should have to lean up against a wall with a solid base to prevent the ladder from sliding

Ladders are already balanced, learn to adapt, make floor's outside your base, improvise for christ sake

[QUOTE=MasterAenox;47854063]Ladders are already balanced, learn to adapt, make floor's outside your base, improvise for christ sake[/QUOTE] There's nothing balanced about ladders. The overhangs are ugly as fuck and add even more to already huge amount of resources needed to basebuild. I'd adapt if I was given the tools like traps, triggers that autolock doors or detonate bombs, boobytrapping chests. But right now there's none of that. Overhangs is just an ugly fix to a problem that shouldn't be there. Ladders should not stick to walls or be able to go horizontally. Makes zero sense.

rockets are pretty useless for raiding now, since ladders can just get you up to the area you wanted to break into to get the tool cupboards to be able to build up into the base, thus making raiding like 90% easier with no brainpower needed. you say 'use baricades and overhangs!!!' and I say wow barricades and overhangs, so amzing, so ez to get rid of' because all people have to do now is break through that first floor of barricades and go up from the inside most of the time. or build up a tower, drop a c4 ontop, and then jump in. we need MORE DEFENSES. pressure-triggered traps (arrows flyin out of walls, spikes pop out of walls), snap traps on walls, spikes that come out of foundations, etc ect traps like such.

I don't think the problem is ladders. The problem is how we build. I have been saying it forever. Everyone seems to think they need this massive base. So to protect their skyscrapers they make it difficult to ascend. But maybe that isn't the best design anymore...

[QUOTE=utilitron;47855324]I don't think the problem is ladders. The problem is how we build. I have been saying it forever. Everyone seems to think they need this massive base. So to protect their skyscrapers they make it difficult to ascend. But maybe that isn't the best design anymore...[/QUOTE] Or maybe admit that the current implementation of ladders is broken as fuck?

Not really. Boo hoo! People can build ladders in my protection zone... AFAIK Cupboards are eventually going away. ---- There is a constant power struggle between raid tactics and prevention... [url]http://www.historyonthenet.com/medieval_life/attacking_a_castle.htm[/url] [QUOTE] Ladders Ladders were used by those attacking a castle to climb over the walls and fight the castle inhabitants within the castle walls. However, ladders had the disadvantage of leaving the man climbing the ladder subject to attack by arrow, boiling water or oil, or by being thrown to the ground if the ladder was pushed away from the wall. To prevent this type of attack the Belfry or Siege Tower was developed. Belfry The Belfry was a large structure on wheels that could be pushed up to the castle walls. Ladders inside the Belfry allowed attackers to climb to the top under cover and get into the castle. Castle owners prevented this type of attack by piling earth up against the castle walls so that the Belfry, which was on wheels, could not be pushed near to the castle. [/QUOTE] Do you think they built mounds of dirt because it was aesthetically pleasing, or because it freaking worked?! That is just what you are seeing in Rust right now. The issue isn't in the ladder as a raiding tool, but the tools we have to defend against them. It is limited.

[QUOTE=utilitron;47855845]Not really. Boo hoo! People can build ladders in my protection zone... AFAIK Cupboards are eventually going away. ---- There is a constant power struggle between raid tactics and prevention... [url]http://www.historyonthenet.com/medieval_life/attacking_a_castle.htm[/url] Do you think they built mounds of dirt because it was aesthetically pleasing, or because it freaking worked?! That is just what you are seeing in Rust right now. The issue isn't in the ladder as a raiding tool, but the tools we have to defend against them. It is limited.[/QUOTE] They also didn't have ladders that could stick to anything, go any height and even work horizontally. Cupboards aren't going away any time soon since there doesn't seem to be a single decent idea on how to remove them while keeping griefing to a minimum. Hell there's even a concept to redesign cupboard into a voodoo doll.

[QUOTE=Samson0722;47852115]What if they made it so you [B]can't[/B] place it on other people's bases but they still aren't blocked by TC. So you find a rock base. You are building blocked. You place ladders up the side of the rock, because they aren't affected by the TC. You can't place ladders up the side of the base but now you have access to his base. You can now c4 the building. No more ¨Unraidable bases¨. I know you are all tired of these god damn posts but, well I think this is a good idea. Tell me if I fucked up.[/QUOTE] The only way to balance ladders correctly is not to balance them. They need to change c4's blast radius and have them cost less.

I got ladder block on my server. My gamers haz never been more happy. That's one way to fix things. If you are a server owner, listen to the crowd like i did. It's quite simple.

[QUOTE=utilitron;47855324]I don't think the problem is ladders. The problem is how we build. I have been saying it forever. Everyone seems to think they need this massive base. So to protect their skyscrapers they make it difficult to ascend. But maybe that isn't the best design anymore...[/QUOTE] The game is heading towards homestead creation, windmill power generation, farm fields, husbandry and water collection tanks. All of these will require a larger space and a larger home. Not necessarily a tower but a walled off zone more like: [URL="https://trello-attachments.s3.amazonaws.com/54f9d810bb582ca5d3464ce6/1200x1364/96696d6fb28358fde58b82ae784800a6/player_base_po_02.jpg"]this[/URL] We need actual survival elements, food shortage, drought, disease, realistic calorie decay and thirst depletion. Elements that require groups to survive, so defenses against raiders will naturally form. Incentives to do other activities besides raiding. It might become more of a struggle to own serfs and land in this way, serfs could promise food/water/materials for protection and survival from large raid teams and a symbiotic relationship could form in turn because raid teams would need these materials and wouldn't have a great deal of time to commit to them on their own. Economies would flourish and kingdoms would form.

[QUOTE=MasterAenox;47854063]Ladders are already balanced, learn to adapt, make floor's outside your base, improvise for christ sake[/QUOTE] You talk like floors outside the base stops anyone at all hehe

We've just made our storage more secure. Anyone can break in, but everything is stored in 30+ 1x1 armored rooms. It's unlikely that blowing into any of these rooms will yield a profit. It cost a shitton of metal to build, and it's a bit more work keeping track of what's where, but it seems pretty secure. How our loot is stored: [URL="http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/545280244439059960/432ABAEC9E018100372D15F408D9D8E843804004/"]http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/545280244439059960/432ABAEC9E018100372D15F408D9D8E843804004/[/URL] How the guys that donated a bunch of metal to us to build it stored their loot: [url]http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/545279691611275267/417E1FCAC49BAA8C9B145FA9B37540599B826099/[/url] See where I'm going with this?

Lets end the Ladder discussion. The easiest way to stop people from using ladders on your base. 1. Put up signs. [U]You cannot put a ladder on a sign[/U]. The sign will also work as an extra layer of defence against raiders as they will have to hack through it. You can use the sign as camouflage (paint it white in the snow, dumb i know but it works) 2. Put over hangs on your base. they can be hacked through or blown up but so can everything else. just adds extra time and resources to the raider. 3. Do both 1 and 2 There you have it. ShackledFrogs 3 point guide to defending against ladders in rust

[QUOTE=Shackledfrog;47865737]Lets end the Ladder discussion. The easiest way to stop people from using ladders on your base. 1. Put up signs. [U]You cannot put a ladder on a sign[/U]. The sign will also work as an extra layer of defence against raiders as they will have to hack through it. You can use the sign as camouflage (paint it white in the snow, dumb i know but it works) 2. Put over hangs on your base. they can be hacked through or blown up but so can everything else. just adds extra time and resources to the raider. 3. Do both 1 and 2 There you have it. ShackledFrogs 3 point guide to defending against ladders in rust[/QUOTE] How does that end the ladder discussion? Both those things you listed aren't going to stop anyone from using ladders. They are just easy to bypass suggestions. Have yet to see a base that has either of those things stop anyone for very long.

[QUOTE=reavertherash;47866169]How does that end the ladder discussion? Both those things you listed aren't going to stop anyone from using ladders. They are just easy to bypass suggestions. Have yet to see a base that has either of those things stop anyone for very long.[/QUOTE] There not meant to stop it, just slow them down. the more resources they need to put into raiding you, the less likely they will raid you.

[QUOTE=reavertherash;47866169]How does that end the ladder discussion? Both those things you listed aren't going to stop anyone from using ladders. They are just easy to bypass suggestions. Have yet to see a base that has either of those things stop anyone for very long.[/QUOTE] They aren't meant to stop anyone. Security comes in layers: every single defense can be breached. The idea is to add as much hassle and expense to the raid as possible. If I spend 5 C4 to break into your base but don't get AT LEAST 5 C4 worth of raw materials out of the raid, then the raid was a waste. Even though I successfully raided, I lost. I would have come out ahead if I never even tried. There is no "preventing ladders" just as there is no "preventing C4" or "preventing social engineering" or "preventing murder" or "preventing griefing". You put up what defenses you can and you deal with it. That's the game. If you want a 100% invincible base, you're going to have to find a modded server. Even PvE servers get grief-y.

How about have a raiding ladder that is kind of like lord of the rings style, super tall, and it takes 2 or three people to lean it. They lean it with a slam and it goes up. Then the defender can kick it down if they are near it. [editline]3rd June 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=dustNbone;47865558]We've just made our storage more secure. Anyone can break in, but everything is stored in 30+ 1x1 armored rooms. It's unlikely that blowing into any of these rooms will yield a profit. It cost a shitton of metal to build, and it's a bit more work keeping track of what's where, but it seems pretty secure. How our loot is stored: [URL="http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/545280244439059960/432ABAEC9E018100372D15F408D9D8E843804004/"]http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/545280244439059960/432ABAEC9E018100372D15F408D9D8E843804004/[/URL] How the guys that donated a bunch of metal to us to build it stored their loot: [url]http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/545279691611275267/417E1FCAC49BAA8C9B145FA9B37540599B826099/[/url] See where I'm going with this?[/QUOTE] That looks like a prison XD. Empty out those rooms and put people in there when handcuffs get in.

[QUOTE=Samson0722;47869287]How about have a raiding ladder that is kind of like lord of the rings style, super tall, and it takes 2 or three people to lean it. They lean it with a slam and it goes up. Then the defender can kick it down if they are near it.[/QUOTE] This is an excellent idea. I'd also like to see ladders respond to the terrain: climb a ladder that's crooked or on uneven ground, and you've got a good chance of falling off the higher you go.

So tired of stupid children who have no sense of game balance or reality. Just because YOU like something, or YOU don't have an issue with it - does NOT automatically mean there aren't problems. Stop being so self-centered. I had been told there were 2 ways to thwart ladders - overhanging ledges, and signs. So I used both. Built an 11-story tower. 3 separate levels of overhanging ledges and 3 separate levels of signs all the way around. Logged off for 1 hour for lunch. Came back...one solid stack of 11 ladders, one on top of the other...went over the signs...hacked the overhanging ledges away...went in through the roof, blew through the sealed floor (I seal up stairways before I log off). What's the point of spending 12 hours of game play gathering resources if you have to start over because you logged off for an hour? Ladders need some fixing. As does the general direction this game is now going. It has almost nothing to do with survival against the elements now, as it is advertised. It's just a PvP fest with a bunch of extra crap thrown in. Pity.

[QUOTE=swill78;47877219]Just because YOU like something, or YOU don't have an issue with it - does NOT automatically mean there aren't problems. Stop being so self-centered.[/quote] Conversely, just because YOU don't like something or YOU have an issue with it doesn't mean it's broken. Someone used a ladder to raid your base. What, exactly, is broken about that? LOL if you're saying your base should be raid-proof.

I bet if they changed the damage tools and C4 do to walls it would alter the effectiveness of using a ladder to climb all over a base.

[QUOTE=Maximum Over;47878435]Conversely, just because YOU don't like something or YOU have an issue with it doesn't mean it's broken. Someone used a ladder to raid your base. What, exactly, is broken about that? LOL if you're saying your base should be raid-proof.[/QUOTE] He said he spend 12 hours to build the base. It took the attacker a hour or less to breach all the defenses. He lost all his resources. So he can spend another x hours to regain them. He knows that even this monster of a base ( 11 stories high is NOT small ) can not even stop a raid with simple tools. So what now? He needs to spend another 10, 20, 30 hours building more defenses? That hopefully mean that it takes longer then a hour for the enemy to breach. By the way ... i am fairly sure that after all that time rebuilding, regathering, it will be even faster for them to breach his defenses with C4 or some rockets. [QUOTE=frank_walls;47878557]I bet if they changed the damage tools and C4 do to walls it would alter the effectiveness of using a ladder to climb all over a base.[/QUOTE] Not really ... the anti-ladder defense consists now out of a overhanging floor. The increased protection is only at the top of a floor, not the bottom. So to remove the overhanging defenses, its just as easy as before. At best it takes them now longer to breach his top floor, as there they needed to breach the "strong" part of the floor.

[QUOTE=benjiro;47879040]He said he spend 12 hours to build the base. It took the attacker a hour or less to breach all the defenses. He lost all his resources. So he can spend another x hours to regain them. He knows that even this monster of a base ( 11 stories high is NOT small ) can not even stop a raid with simple tools. So what now? He needs to spend another 10, 20, 30 hours building more defenses? That hopefully mean that it takes longer then a hour for the enemy to breach. By the way ... i am fairly sure that after all that time rebuilding, regathering, it will be even faster for them to breach his defenses with C4 or some rockets. Not really ... the anti-ladder defense consists now out of a overhanging floor. The increased protection is only at the top of a floor, not the bottom. So to remove the overhanging defenses, its just as easy as before. At best it takes them now longer to breach his top floor, as there they needed to breach the "strong" part of the floor.[/QUOTE] Yes, not saying it will stop it, but it make it a little harder, so it's a move in the right direction.

[QUOTE=benjiro;47879040]He knows that even this monster of a base ( 11 stories high is NOT small ) can not even stop a raid with simple tools.[/quote] This is what I'm talking about. Bases aren't raid-proof. No base ever has been, except maybe when exploiting a glitch or playing on modded servers. Bases are meant to be raided. It's been that way since the legacy days. Defenses are there to make raids cost more and take longer, not make them impossible.