It's not a freaking raid if you do it while everyone is offline. - Rust

Stop calling it a raid, please. You aren't raiding. You're .. I don't even know, being a burgler ? Here, I'll make it easier to understand. raid rād/Submit noun 1. a sudden attack on an enemy by troops, aircraft, or other armed forces in warfare. As far as I'm aware walls and beds don't cont as armed forces. bur·gla·ry (bûrgl-r) n. pl. bur·gla·ries The act of entering a building or other premises with the intent to commit theft. There. Get it? I'm not saying you shouldn't attack unoccupied houses, just PLEASE stop calling it raiding. You are not raiding. You are not a raider. You are a burglar. You're not this: [IMG]http://weaponsandwarfare.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Vikings_Warfare01_full.jpg[/IMG] You are this: [IMG]http://img.timeinc.net/time/photoessays/2011/top10_creepiest_mascots/hamburglar.jpg[/IMG] Thank you for your time.

What if I have a big base and playing with a group of 5 other people attacking another group with 5+ players with a massive base. We all have weapons. We all have Kevlar. Wouldn't we be considered an army "raiding" another army without their permission (sudden)?

The definition says by troops, aircraft or other armed forces. That means what you use in your attack, not the thing you're attacking. You're just splitting hairs here, really. I'll call it raiding if I want to. I'm the guy using my ammo, C4 and time to get through this damned thing thank you very much.

So..... you got "raided" while you weren't online/at home and whoever "raided" you was boasting about it?

[QUOTE=masesm;43647889]What if I have a big base and playing with a group of 5 other people attacking another group with 5+ players with a massive base. We all have weapons. We all have Kevlar. Wouldn't we be considered an army "raiding" another army without their permission (sudden)?[/QUOTE] If there is an enemy present, it's raiding. [QUOTE=AstroSloth;43647890]The definition says by troops, aircraft or other armed forces. That means what you use in your attack, not the thing you're attacking. You're just splitting hairs here, really. I'll call it raiding if I want to. I'm the guy using my ammo, C4 and time to get through this damned thing thank you very much.[/QUOTE] A sudden attack on an *enemy*. Walls are not the enemy. Beds are not the enemy. An empty compound is not the enemy. I'm not splitting hairs. You just want to excuse your cowardice as raiding sir. :P [QUOTE=Itrme;43647896]So..... you got "raided" while you weren't online/at home and whoever "raided" you was boasting about it?[/QUOTE] Nah, I always build multiple storage locations in really random places, generally so far away no one bothers to even look for them. I'm just amazed at how many people in this community think its some kind of accomplishment to "raid" an empty building. I'm even more amazed people are surprised when random players are upset they lost everything while they were logged off. Not everyone is going to be happy they didn't get a chance to defend. People shouldn't be surprised if you take the most cowardly way of attacking as a method of stealing goods. Personally, I think burglary is almost as lame as griefing, but I still consider it a play mechanic. The latter is just being a tool.

[QUOTE=Scynix;43647909] A sudden attack on an *enemy*. Walls are not the enemy. Beds are not the enemy. An empty compound is not the enemy. I'm not splitting hairs. You just want to excuse your cowardice as raiding sir. :P[/QUOTE] An enemy isn't just the physical characters that you play against. An enemy includes their presence and the threat they pose to you. By [B]RAIDING[/B] their compound, taking their gear and destroying their beds I am ridding of their presence. It isn't cowardice, it's strategy. You just sound like you lost all of your things while you were offline and now you're upset.

Is it just me or should this thread be put in the debate forum?

[QUOTE=AstroSloth;43647971]An enemy isn't just the physical characters that you play against. An enemy includes their presence and the threat they pose to you. By [B]RAIDING[/B] their compound, taking their gear and destroying their beds I am ridding of their presence. It isn't cowardice, it's strategy. You just sound like you lost all of your things while you were offline and now you're upset.[/QUOTE] IF this was real life and we were fighting real wars, I would agree. But this is a game. A game in alpha with flawed construction mechanics. In real life you could scorched earth the entire facility. You aren't even removing their facilities from them, you're breaking in and stealing everything. I'm pretty sure that's exactly what the definition of burglary is. To me, it sounds like all you do is burglar. You don't actually fight anyone. That's fine. That's how you play, I get that. But you aren't raiding, and stop pretending like you are. There is no more skill involved in C4'ing an empty building than there is in shooting zombies. You're PvE'ing because you're afraid to PvP them on equal terms. That's fine. I never said it wasn't a valid strategy. You just need to stop pretending like you're raiding. You're actually not helping your argument at all jumping to hostility immediately because someone questions your strategy. No ones belittling you for your cowardice sir. Cowardice is very often an important factor in war.

[QUOTE=Scynix;43647990]IF this was real life and we were fighting real wars, I would agree. But this is a game. A game in alpha with flawed construction mechanics. To me, it sounds like all you do is burglar. You don't actually fight anyone. That's fine. That's how you play, I get that. But you aren't raiding, and stop pretending like you are. There is no more skill involved in C4'ing an empty building than there is in shooting zombies. You're PvE'ing because you're afraid to PvP them on equal terms. That's fine. I never said it wasn't a valid strategy. You just need to stop pretending like you're raiding. You're actually not helping your argument at all jumping to hostility immediately because someone questions your strategy. No ones belittling you for your cowardice sir. Cowardice is very often an important factor in war.[/QUOTE] So you go out, with one single goal, to raid someone. You find a house which seems to hold some valuable stuff and you decide to break down the doors. Nobody is at home or the occupants are asleep. (Ignore the fact that they can only wake up by logging in) So suddenly, your raid gets degraded to burglaring just because there is no one actively defending? Doesn't seem right does it? If a military unit raids breaks into a complex and kills the occupants before they can react/wake up, isn't it still a raid?

Oh look, people arguing semantics. How ironic that the definition you use defines exactly what you are saying it does not. An enemy base IS an enemy, whether YOU choose to accept it or not. Happy raiding!

[QUOTE=Scynix;43647990]IF this was real life and we were fighting real wars, I would agree. But this is a game. A game in alpha with flawed construction mechanics. To me, it sounds like all you do is burglar. You don't actually fight anyone. That's fine. That's how you play, I get that. But you aren't raiding, and stop pretending like you are. There is no more skill involved in C4'ing an empty building than there is in shooting zombies. You're PvE'ing because you're afraid to PvP them on equal terms. That's fine. I never said it wasn't a valid strategy. You just need to stop pretending like you're raiding.[/QUOTE] Forgive me for this but you're an idiot. Like you said, this is a game. We can play it however we like. If I walk by a base that I'm positive has tons of gear, and you've defended it poorly, it's now mine. Learn to develop a stronger compound or grab some guys to be on around the clock. I'd hardly call it cowardice, but if you want to continue looking for something to bitch about, I don't guess I can stop you. But here's the thing you don't understand. Unless you're playing on an empty server, you don't know what to expect when you attack someone's house/structure/compound. They could all be asleep. There could be two sitting inside with shotguns. They could all come online halfway through the raid. If my friends and I enter, and you're all asleep, we're not going to walk back out and say "Oh well guys we tried! They're sleeping so it's pussy mode time. Better let them keep their stuff." But for all we know, after we blow up the second story wall, we could have a barrel in our face. It's raiding. Stop bitching and go back to playing. Sounds like you need to learn a bit more anyways.

[QUOTE=Itrme;43648040]So you go out, with one single goal, to raid someone. You find a house which seems to hold some valuable stuff and you decide to break down the doors. Nobody is at home or the occupants are asleep. (Ignore the fact that they can only wake up by logging in) So suddenly, your raid gets degraded to burglaring just because there is no one actively defending? Doesn't seem right does it? If a military unit raids breaks into a complex and kills the occupants before they can react/wake up, isn't it still a raid?[/QUOTE] I don't think I understand your post. What do you mean by "degraded" ? Raiding and burglary are essentially equal terms, just defining two different acts. How do you know the place has "valuables" through the walls? Are you ESP'ing? Or are you assuming crates == valuables? That's not really going to be viable against half the community. Yes, if you walk by someones house, look in the window, see a big screen TV, break in and steal it, you are committing a burglary. If you, in turn, shoot people while getting away, doesn't the crime get increased to murder? How is this different? Also, under what circumstance can you *not* tell people aren't there to defend? Everyone in the building is afk in a corner? You can see through the cracks in walls. I generally don't waste my time on buildings (no matter how large) that have no one inside. They've usually been burglarized by random guys like AstroSloth anyways. [QUOTE=AstroSloth;43648068]Forgive me for this but you're an idiot. Like you said, this is a game. We can play it however we like. If I walk by a base that [B]I'm positive has tons of gear[/B], and you've defended it poorly, it's now mine. Learn to develop a stronger compound or grab some guys to be on around the clock. I'd hardly call it cowardice, but if you want to continue looking for something to bitch about, I don't guess I can stop you. It's raiding. Stop bitching and go back to playing. Sounds like you need to learn a bit more anyways.[/QUOTE] Poorly crafted insults and logic won't assist you in this matter I'm afraid. It's not raiding. It's burglary. Please refer to the OP so you may verify the definition of burglary. And as I've pointed out multiple times, no one is telling you that you can't burgle. You sound like you're getting very upset over the definition of an act that you perform. Are you perhaps trying to hide behind the idea of it being a raid, when it isn't? I would be curious how you can be "positive" it "has tons of gear". How's that work? You should make a post for new players so they can learn your ways. PS, it's still burglary.

[QUOTE=Itrme;43648040]So you go out, with one single goal, to raid someone. You find a house which seems to hold some valuable stuff and you decide to break down the doors. Nobody is at home or the occupants are asleep. (Ignore the fact that they can only wake up by logging in) So suddenly, your raid gets degraded to burglaring just because there is no one actively defending? Doesn't seem right does it? If a military unit raids breaks into a complex and kills the occupants before they can react/wake up, isn't it still a raid?[/QUOTE] Without anyone there to try to stop the 'raid', then yeah, it sounds like straight burgling to me. -edit And as Scynix pointed out before, it isn't really a good or bad thing. That's up to you to decide.

[QUOTE=Scynix;43648070]I don't think I understand your post. What do you mean by "degraded" ? Raiding and burglary are essentially equal terms, just defining two different acts. How do you know the place has "valuables" through the walls? Are you ESP'ing? Or are you assuming crates == valuables? That's not really going to be viable against half the community. Yes, if you walk by someones house, look in the window, see a big screen TV, break in and steal it, you are committing a burglary. If you, in turn, shoot people while getting away, doesn't the crime get increased to murder? How is this different? Also, under what circumstance can you *not* tell people aren't there to defend? Everyone in the building is afk in a corner? You can see through the cracks in walls. I generally don't waste my time on buildings (no matter how large) that have no one inside. They've usually been burglarized by random guys like AstroSloth anyways. Poorly crafted insults and logic won't assist you in this matter I'm afraid. It's not raiding. It's burglary. Please refer to the OP so you may verify the definition of burglary. I would be curious how you can be "positive" it "has tons of gear". How's that work? You should make a post for new players so they can learn your ways. PS, it's still burglary.[/QUOTE] How am I positive it has tons of gear? I know the dudes that live there. I've fought them, taken loot from them, talked with them, cursed at them. I know that everywhere they go they're wearing Kevlar, stacked with kits and weapons, C4, etc. My group and I scout them out so we know where they store most of their things. We follow them back to wherever they live and there ya have it. Now we know. Was that too difficult for you or do I need to write a Children's book that illustrates the process?

[QUOTE=AstroSloth;43648125]How am I positive it has tons of gear? I know the dudes that live there. I've fought them, taken loot from them, talked with them, cursed at them. I know that everywhere they go they're wearing Kevlar, stacked with kits and weapons, C4, etc. My group and I scout them out so we know where they store most of their things. We follow them back to wherever they live and there ya have it. Now we know. Was that too difficult for you or do I need to write a Children's book that illustrates the process?[/QUOTE] And you've done all this, but you're still afraid to actually raid them? Instead you wait for them to log off and burglarize their facility? I think staking out a place and deliberately burglarizing when they've gone offline is even closer to burglary than my original point. You're more like a super burglar at that point. Would you be happier with a picture of Catwoman? I'm pretty sure Catwoman isn't terrified of an engagement though... I mean, that's your choice, clearly. Keep up the good work I guess. ... You're kind of a Rust Stalker, aren't you astro? :o

[QUOTE=Scynix;43647852]Stop calling it a raid, please. You aren't raiding. You're .. I don't even know, being a burgler ? Here, I'll make it easier to understand. raid rād/Submit noun 1. a sudden attack on an enemy by troops, aircraft, or other armed forces in warfare. [/QUOTE] I found different definitions 1.sudden attack: a sudden attack made by soldiers, aircraft, police, bandits, or any other force in an attempt to seize or destroy something I am a soldier in rust with my c4 and M4. I attack a base in an attempt to seize the items stored in the base. If the base is occupied is moot because i'm still making a sudden attack in an attempt to seize or destroy something. I found another definition a sudden assault or attack, as upon something to be seized or suppressed: a police raid on a gambling ring. Police can raid an empty crack house. They don't have to get into a gunfight in order to raid a building. A burgler is someone who i would imagine usually sneaks in an open window unarmed.(building ramps up to a window to steal stuff is more burglary) A raider is someone who blows open the wall/kicks down the door with body armor and a gun.(using c4 to blow open a wall/door is more raiding, but also i guess it's a burglary too)

[QUOTE=iamcpc;43648157]I found different definitions 1.sudden attack: a sudden attack made by soldiers, aircraft, police, bandits, or any other force in an attempt to seize or destroy something I am a soldier in rust with my c4 and M4. I attack a base in an attempt to seize the items stored in the base. If the base is occupied is moot because i'm still making a sudden attack in an attempt to seize or destroy something. I found another definition a sudden assault or attack, as upon something to be seized or suppressed: a police raid on a gambling ring. Police can raid an empty crack house. They don't have to get into a gunfight in order to raid a building. A burgler is someone who sneaks in an open window unarmed. A raider is someone who blows open the wall/kicks down the door with body armor and a gun.[/QUOTE] And again, you're completely ignoring the definition of a burglary. Yes, there are sub definitions for raid that include police actions if you dig around on the internet. It's not that hard to find. The difference is, burglary only 2-3 very specific definitions, all of which involve breaking into a building and stealing valuables/goods. All raids are burglary. Not all burglary is raiding. Just like all kills are casualties, but not all casualties are kills. Understand?

[QUOTE=Scynix;43648134]And you've done all this, but you're still afraid to actually raid them? Instead you wait for them to log off and burglarize their facility? I think staking out a place and deliberately burglarizing when they've gone offline is even closer to burglary than my original point. You're more like a super burglar at that point. Would you be happier with a picture of Catwoman? I mean, that's your choice, clearly. Keep up the good work I guess.[/QUOTE] You are reasoning in circles.... Who said that they actually knew they were off-line at the time? The server might not have a /list function and you will only be able to tell how many are on-line. Maybe you were just waiting for a couple of friends to log in to mount the raid. When raiding, should a house with only off-line people deter you from trying to gain entrance? The point is, when you get in, you find the bodies of the owners and you will kill them just for being there/wearing fancy stuff. But because the occupants were asleep suddenly it's not a raid but and act of burglary....? Even though you went there with the intent of killing the occupants and taking there stuff, even if they were on-line? I'd rather define burglary in rust as willingly finding empty houses, gaining entrance and looting their stuff. To sum it up, your rant, which you addressed to anyone raiding a house with no on-line occupants should only apply to those who willingly sneak around, to find said empty houses to steal from.

[QUOTE=Scynix;43648215]And again, you're completely ignoring the definition of a burglary. Yes, there are sub definitions for raid that include police actions if you dig around on the internet. It's not that hard to find. The difference is, burglary only 2-3 very specific definitions, all of which involve breaking into a building and stealing valuables/goods. I agree. You can be both a raider and a burglar at the same time so it's not one or the other. If you go equipped with guns/armor/c4 then I would put you in the raiding category All raids are burglary. Not all burglary is raiding. Understand?[/QUOTE] I agree 100% but if you go to an empty base with c4/guns/armor and blow open the door you are a raider AND a burglar. In your original post you said that, attacking an empty base, means that you're NOT a raider which is what I disagreed with when i brought up the example of police raiding an empty drug house.

[QUOTE=Itrme;43648226] I'd rather define burglary in rust as willingly finding empty houses, gaining entrance and looting their stuff. To sum it up, your rant, which you addressed to anyone raiding a house with no on-line occupants should only apply to those who willingly sneak around, to find said empty houses to steal from. [/QUOTE] You apparently didn't read Astro's post about how they deliberately invade their rivals facility while they're offline. That's burglary, and he's attempting to call it raiding. Which is exactly what my rant is about. Thanks though, yes, people who are deliberately invading empty houses to steal are committing burglary, not raiding.

[QUOTE=Scynix;43648134]And you've done all this, but you're still afraid to actually raid them? Instead you wait for them to log off and burglarize their facility? I mean, that's your choice, clearly. Keep up the good work I guess.[/QUOTE] Hey folks, here we have a beautifully perfect case of confirmation bias! Scynix, you're refusing to pay attention to what I and others are saying simply because you don't agree with it. If you look at my earlier posts, I answered your question. You begin the raid not knowing what awaits you. More intelligent players will keep their fires, furnaces and flashlights off if they're being raided. Then once the opposing force is inside, they'll surprise them with shotguns/frags/M4's. You're assuming that I wait for them to log off and that assumption is based off of what exactly? Your preconceived notion that I'm just such a horrible, lowly player? Get over yourself. We always begin the raid expecting an opposition of some kind. If the raid ends and there has been none, then fantastic! We get free gear because of their inability to play the game better than us. So. What other nonsense have you got for me? [editline]23rd January 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Scynix;43648242]You apparently didn't read Astro's post about how they deliberately invade their rivals facility while they're offline. That's burglary, and he's attempting to call it raiding. Which is exactly what my rant is about. Thanks though, yes, people who are deliberately invading empty houses to steal are committing burglary, not raiding.[/QUOTE] I'd like to see you quote the portion of my response where I say I purposefully wait for them to log offline before I enter their base.

[QUOTE=AstroSloth;43648252]So. What other nonsense have you got for me?[/QUOTE] Nothing? I'm not accusing anyone of being a burglar. Well, I am now, you're a burglar. You've admitted to it in this thread. You're too afraid to attack someones facility while they're online, following them and wait for them to go offline before breaking in and stealing their equipment. I mean.. the entire thread is about people calling invading an empty house raiding, when it is in fact burglary. Then you try to defend it by blatantly saying you attack your rivals base to steal their goods.... in a thread about doing it while they're offline. That's burglary, not raiding. So I guess I have that for you? [QUOTE=AstroSloth;43648252] I'd like to see you quote the portion of my response where I say I purposefully wait for them to log offline before I enter their base.[/QUOTE] It's the premise of the entire thread. Do you just blindly walk into threads and start raging? Oh.. nevermind, checked your post history, that is in fact what you do. Carry on!

[QUOTE=Scynix;43648281]Then you try to defend it by blatantly saying you attack your rivals base to steal their goods.... in a thread about doing it while they're offline. That's burglary, not raiding. So I guess I have that for you?[/QUOTE] That's like saying police who raid an unoccupied drug house don't raid it because no one is home. You don't have to shoot at someone to raid their home. Someone can be gone and you can raid their home.

[QUOTE=Scynix;43648281]Nothing? I'm not accusing anyone of being a burglar. Well, I am now, you're a burglar. You've admitted to it in this thread. You're too afraid to attack someones facility while they're online, following them and wait for them to go offline before breaking in and stealing their equipment. I mean.. the entire thread is about people calling invading an empty house raiding, when it is in fact burglary. Then you try to defend it by blatantly saying you attack your rivals base to steal their goods.... in a thread about doing it while they're offline. That's burglary, not raiding. So I guess I have that for you?[/QUOTE] I didn't say anywhere in that post that I waited for them to go offline. I said we scouted their base out for the purpose of knowing where to best attack it from. Go on Youtube for a little while or watch a successful player's stream. You'll see that many of those groups go to an area, scout it out, then return later with more gear. I haven't admitted to being a burglar at all. You're just trying to make yourself look smart by putting words in my mouth and it's failing you.

Well I guess I prefer burglary. Take your stuff while you are offline, I still profit :) All semantics really and the only person who comes out on top is the burglar not the person whining.

[QUOTE=iamcpc;43648304]That's like saying police who raid an unoccupied drug house don't raid it because no one is home. You don't have to shoot at someone to raid their home. Someone can be gone and you can raid their home.[/QUOTE] The flaw with this logic is that police are part of an organized law keeping unit. They can't "raid" houses without court orders, which require surveillance, and evidence that the place they're raiding has both illegal content and perps. When they raid a drug house, they're hoping to catch the dealers. They don't wait until the dealers go out on a drug run. I do appreciate what you're trying to say, believe me, but that just doesn't apply here.

[QUOTE=Scynix;43648281]Nothing? I'm not accusing anyone of being a burglar. Well, I am now, you're a burglar. You've admitted to it in this thread. You're too afraid to attack someones facility while they're online, following them and wait for them to go offline before breaking in and stealing their equipment. I mean.. the entire thread is about people calling invading an empty house raiding, when it is in fact burglary. Then you try to defend it by blatantly saying you attack your rivals base to steal their goods.... in a thread about doing it while they're offline. That's burglary, not raiding. So I guess I have that for you? It's the premise of the entire thread. Do you just blindly walk into threads and start raging? Oh.. nevermind, checked your post history, that is in fact what you do. Carry on![/QUOTE] I'd hardly call it raging. I'm presenting you with fact, reasoning and logic. You're just name-calling and lying.

[QUOTE=Shping;43648316]Well I guess I prefer burglary. Take your stuff while you are offline, I still profit :) All semantics really and the only person who comes out on top is the burglar not the person whining.[/QUOTE] A man after my own heart. That's the spirit. Like I said, I don't think it's an invalid tactic, it's just not raiding.

[QUOTE=Scynix;43648347]A man after my own heart. That's the spirit. Like I said, I don't think it's an invalid tactic, it's just not raiding.[/QUOTE] He said it's all semantics, and it came down to preference. What thread are you reading?

[QUOTE=AstroSloth;43648346]I'd hardly call it raging. I'm presenting you with fact, reasoning and logic. [B]You're just name-calling[/B] and lying.[/QUOTE] "AstroSloth posted: Forgive me for this but [B]you're an idiot[/B]. Like you said, this is a game. We can play it however we like. If I walk by a base that I'm positive has tons of gear, and you've defended it poorly, it's now mine. Learn to develop a stronger compound or grab some guys to be on around the clock. I'd hardly call it cowardice, but if you want to continue looking for something to bitch about, I don't guess I can stop you. It's raiding. Stop bitching and go back to playing. Sounds like you need to learn a bit more anyways." Mmmm.. yes... name calling. Wait, you meant me, not yourself... It's still burglary. You're still a burglar. Please Astro, no ones attacking you for being a burglar. Calm down and have some tea. [editline]23rd January 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=outlawpickle;43648360]He said it's all semantics, and it came down to preference. What thread are you reading?[/QUOTE] The one where he still prefers "burglary". You get that part, right? That's not just some glitch on the internet that only I can see?