So. As it is, It annoys me (and I assume many players) when there are hundreds of derelict structures. Structures that make you wonder if anybody is actually using it, and therefore uncertain if it's safe enough to build...well anywhere. Structures, My friends, That build up the entity cap, and make us wish to tear them all down, but no one has the resources to take out all those foundations.
So, developers gave us a degrade system. A system that is rather annoying. Foundations degrade fast enough that we must log in daily to upkeep them. At which point, if you need 2 days off to deal with life, you may as well wait till the wipe, because your base will have fallen to peices. Yet abandoned structures seem to degrade so slow, that it'll be wipe time before they fall apart fully.
If the current system degrades faster to clear abandoned structures, it's unfair to players. If the current system is nerfed, the world fills up too fast.
SO. I have a suggestion. A simple and effective solution. In 4 easy steps
1. Anything within the protection range of a Tool Cupboard is immune to degrade, Save for Tool Cupboards themselves.
2. Tool Cupboards degrade over time.
3. Allow Tool Cupboards to be repaired.
4. Anything outside the protection range of a Tool Cupboard Degrades.
Logically, the Tool Cupboard contains tools to maintain ones base. So it should be assumed the player would upkeep his base while offline.
Game Mechanic-wise, This would:
Allow abandoned structures to fall apart quicker.
Prevent players from hiding a Tool Cupboard in a 1x1x1 armored box. (Since they need to repair the Tool Cupboard periodically)
Get rid of that awkward situation, where you cannot get to a foundation piece (normally because of walls, and a barricade preventing access from the outer perimeter)
What do you think?
Valid ideas. I like the direction it would take base upkeep, but I definitely think the balancing would be finicky.
Ok, so in order to troll the system all I would have to do is go around to derelict buildings, place a TC, wall it in, and stick the max amount of supplies in it. Rinse repeat for every abandoned building I see in order to force a map wipe because I got mad that I got raided and wanted to start fresh. What you're suggesting essentially makes it EASIER to maintain large amounts of useless buildings because it makes upkeep automatic.
[QUOTE=Zipper Bear;48152410]Ok, so in order to troll the system all I would have to do is go around to derelict buildings, place a TC, wall it in, and stick the max amount of supplies in it. Rinse repeat for every abandoned building I see in order to force a map wipe because I got mad that I got raided and wanted to start fresh. What you're suggesting essentially makes it EASIER to maintain large amounts of useless buildings because it makes upkeep automatic.[/QUOTE]
No. My suggestion does not involve stacking supplies in the TC. Simply to repair the TC itself. So, if you have the supplies to plop down and board up TCs.... Well... Build a new base. Easier than wasting an hour gathering material, building a TC, Hammer, And blueprint before building a wall, and repairing foundations.... Repeatedly.
Heck, might be easier now to be a rogue Hammer Man, Cutting down trees, and repairing foundations. All in your mad quest to force a restart.
But how does that fix the being gone two day's thing?
[QUOTE=n7m6e7;48152587]No. My suggestion does not involve stacking supplies in the TC. Simply to repair the TC itself. So, if you have the supplies to plop down and board up TCs.... Well... Build a new base. Easier than wasting an hour gathering material, building a TC, Hammer, And blueprint before building a wall, and repairing foundations.... Repeatedly.
Heck, might be easier now to be a rogue Hammer Man, Cutting down trees, and repairing foundations. All in your mad quest to force a restart.[/QUOTE]
O woops, sorry misunderstood about repairing the TC, my bad. I still think there's a better solution out there (preferably just a decay curve that starts slow and ramps up after 1-2 days) but it's not the worst one I've ever heard.
Garry intends to get rid of TCs so how would it help if they were to upgrade TCs rather then work on a new system?
How about instead of a tool cupboard, it's a repair cupboard or something. Depending on how big your base is, it calculated how much resources are needed to maintain your base over time.
You fill it with stone and wood and it keeps your base maintained so long as there are resources in it. If you are going to be off for 2 days, you fill it with enough wood and stone for the duration.
[QUOTE=Vlku272;48153384]Garry intends to get rid of TCs so how would it help if they were to upgrade TCs rather then work on a new system?[/QUOTE]
Source ?
I was suggesting the same idea a few days ago but nobody really paid attention to it...
[url]http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1474121[/url] (scroll down a bit to see exactly this modifation of my original idea)
[QUOTE=Evil Flanker;48154831]Source ?[/QUOTE]
Use google M8. It is mentioned in most places that TCs are.
[QUOTE=Vlku272;48153384]Garry intends to get rid of TCs so how would it help if they were to upgrade TCs rather then work on a new system?[/QUOTE]
Well, now that we have TC, we are kinda stuck with them for now. If you rip them away, we are back to raid-stairs, and griefers dropping stone blocks in your doorway... Or worse, barricades.
[QUOTE=n7m6e7;48156513]Well, now that we have TC, we are kinda stuck with them for now. If you rip them away, we are back to raid-stairs, and griefers dropping stone blocks in your doorway... Or worse, barricades.[/QUOTE]
Yes, and he'll take the tool cupboard away when the building system's mostly finalized and the building system itself properly enforces anti-griefing like walling in doorways. Right now the game doesn't care what gets put in front of a door, and the tool cupboard is the quick and dirty solution until it makes sense to do it properly.
If you suddenly make cupboards do additional things and integrate it firmly into gameplay, now you have a problem, because garry's vision for Rust did not begin with a magical forcefield-projecting cabinet you can rub your dick on to gain permission to build inside of it, I'm pretty sure. Especially since decay is hardly a finalized feature as well. Decay right now is a necessary evil to prevent servers from hitting their collider limit.
pls help me [url]http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1475236[/url]
[QUOTE=elixwhitetail;48159380]Yes, and he'll take the tool cupboard away when the building system's mostly finalized and the building system itself properly enforces anti-griefing like walling in doorways. Right now the game doesn't care what gets put in front of a door, and the tool cupboard is the quick and dirty solution until it makes sense to do it properly.
If you suddenly make cupboards do additional things and integrate it firmly into gameplay, now you have a problem, because garry's vision for Rust did not begin with a magical forcefield-projecting cabinet you can rub your dick on to gain permission to build inside of it, I'm pretty sure. Especially since decay is hardly a finalized feature as well. Decay right now is a necessary evil to prevent servers from hitting their collider limit.[/QUOTE]
yea. I always found that odd. I just kinda got over the keypads with unlimited batteries, sudden glass, ect, as a needed mechanic, and as outlandish as cabinets are, I don't see any way around them. Realistically, if your neighbor is a heavy sleeper, there isn't anything to stop you from nailing a board across his front door. and there isn't another solution, that I see. I mean, even other building games (like 7 days to die) resort to a kind of land-claim.
...Maybe it's just some kind of unspoken code between characters?
Seriously though. If anyone knows how to prevent griefing realistically (enough) , Make a post, because it's gonna drive me nuts.
Back to the topic at hand. If TC's and Degrade are just temporary, I don't see any issue with combining them. Like, If they replace TC's with a better anti-grief system WITHOUT eliminating the degrade system, then TC's would become "Maintainence Cabinets", and semi-realistically prevent degrade of active bases. If TC's are replaced, and the Degrade system taken out, then my suggestion is just gone with the change.
I don't think adding "degrade prevention" would cement the TC's further into the game. If my terminology makes sense.
[QUOTE=n7m6e7;48161726]yea. I always found that odd. I just kinda got over the keypads with unlimited batteries, sudden glass, ect, as a needed mechanic, and as outlandish as cabinets are, I don't see any way around them. Realistically, if your neighbor is a heavy sleeper, there isn't anything to stop you from nailing a board across his front door. and there isn't another solution, that I see. I mean, even other building games (like 7 days to die) resort to a kind of land-claim.
...Maybe it's just some kind of unspoken code between characters?
Seriously though. If anyone knows how to prevent griefing realistically (enough) , Make a post, because it's gonna drive me nuts.
Back to the topic at hand. If TC's and Degrade are just temporary, I don't see any issue with combining them. Like, If they replace TC's with a better anti-grief system WITHOUT eliminating the degrade system, then TC's would become "Maintainence Cabinets", and semi-realistically prevent degrade of active bases. If TC's are replaced, and the Degrade system taken out, then my suggestion is just gone with the change.
I don't think adding "degrade prevention" would cement the TC's further into the game. If my terminology makes sense.[/QUOTE]
I really don't see a problem with cupboards as they are now. I did have an issue with them being anti-raid tools, but now that their only use is to prevent griefing, I think they are fine. Is the model and name right? I dunno, probably not, but I don't see why they should be removed now unless a similar system is introduced.
Back in Legacy modded servers had building ownership where the first layed foundation would be associated with it's builder and the whole structure linked to it would be also owned by that initial owner. This prevented anyone and everyone from doing anything to your base. You could however build foundations very close to the base and grief in a different way. Since foundations and pillars weren't destructible other than decay, you'd have raid stairs and other shit littering the perimeter of the base, etc. Plus, if the owner was part of a clan and decided to stop playing, then nobody would be able to expand the base unless some kind of sharing mod was added to the mix (which still required owner intervention).
I think the current cupboard does what it does perfectly well. No reason whatsoever to remove it.
Well, the reason to get rid of it, is that it doesn't make enough sense.
Just to bring it up, creating circuitry, and coffee cans from metal fragments to have helmets and locks Isn't realistic, BUT that's just for aesthetics. In any game, you gotta balance realism with fun.
The tool cupboard is literally something put in, Because there is no other option to stop griefers. Well, no other obvious option at least. Unless each block records the placer, and allows you to report griefers, and have them banned by an admin, or something.
Sense < Having fun
Only alternative would be like real life, have paid policemen to watch the community and prevent them from misbehaving and put them in prison when they do not follow the rules. I mean at some point you have to accept that things cannot always make sense.. Our bodies, life, time, all is worthless in Rust so morals/rules/laws won't do much when it comes to stop griefing.
To me the TC is perfect as it is, it does what it has to do really well in a way that's not overly intrusive.
Heck if you prefer we could have a virtual Rust government with which you can register home ownership and anyone violating would see NPC policemen spawn and put them in prison or something... lol
Speaking of anti-raid tools, shouldn't ladders be an option to raid a base instead of a stairway to the top since the cupboard? It's silly that a single floor row stops what was supposed to be a raid gear. I'd like to see us being able to place ladders in such ways that they allow to traverse those barriers.
Or maybe I'm wrong. Ladders might have been added as a way to climb up a base if the stairway got destroyed and the owners don't hurry up with replacing them.
An idea I just had.. Since overhangs are not secured by pillars they could have lower health.. Or prevent full size overhangs and introduce half ceilings with half health for this purpose.
I was thinking 1. Prevent players from jump-building 'Raid-Towers. Then 2. Provide an actual raid tower that cost a lot per level, and a bit weaker than wood. Make ledges pointless. Maybe balance it out by making floors/roofs stronger. Or more resistant.
[QUOTE=n7m6e7;48161726]Realistically, if your neighbor is a heavy sleeper, there isn't anything to stop you from nailing a board across his front door. and there isn't another solution, that I see. I mean, even other building games (like 7 days to die) resort to a kind of land-claim.[/QUOTE]
Realism should never trump gameplay. The developers have decided that being able to just trap anyone in their base so that they have to suicide and abandon everything is not a core gameplay element in Rust, so this behaviour has to be prevented somehow.
A land-claim system, [U]simply to solve building griefing like walling in all doors[/U], is a cheap and fast, but blunt-hammer, solution to the problem, because it changes the whole gameplay meta for raiding and building. If you also want players to be able to stake claim on a piece of land and have automatic protection while doing so as a core gameplay mechanic, then such a system is fine, of course.
Rust isn't like that. When garry implemented building in the new version of Rust, building pieces very explicitly do not understand ownership. This was a conscious design decision by the devs. So, staking land claims is not an intended part of the gameplay--[B]unless garry changes his mind[/B], which is always possible.
So, unless he changes his mind, we have a problem to solve and the ultimate solution shouldn't be land claims. Instead, the game simply shouldn't allow you to grief in ways considered unacceptable, and that means preventing walls from blocking doors in. It means making stair-raiding impossible by making stairs be unable to attach that way, and only in the ways they're supposed to.
I mean, you aren't allowed to cheat, either, and if you're caught, you're punished with a ban, but you don't need a "that's unrealistic" justification for coding the game to prevent noclipping. If we go the realism argument, you should be server-banned until the next wipe when you die, because in RL you don't get to respawn at a sleeping bag if you get shot in the head and bleed out on the floor, but that would be absolutely [B]zero[/B] fun for anyone.
[QUOTE=elixwhitetail;48179095]
Instead, the game simply shouldn't allow you to grief in ways considered unacceptable.
[/QUOTE]
That is the issue. The game isn't sentient, and can't decide if someone is greifing or not. It doesn't know if you are building as part of a raid, or a structure to grief someone. It doesn't know if you are building a defense, or blocking someone in. you could include simple stuff, such as preventing building onto each owned part, maybe even prevent building within X distance of a block, BUT that opens a whole new can of worms, involving authentication per-block, Maybe even a grouping system to allow specific sectors to be designated, so you can bulk-allow friends to build on, say, 50 parts at a time. Even then, if there isn't a big enough "noBuild" radius, People will put barricades just on the edge (happened once to me, when my entrance was near the edge of my TC perimeter)
The only viable solution I can come up with, is to have an admin-report-system, to perma-ban any griefers, and repair damage done. But I'd rather keep TC's.
[QUOTE=n7m6e7;48179320]The game isn't sentient, and can't decide if someone is greifing or not. It doesn't know if you are building as part of a raid, or a structure to grief someone. It doesn't know if you are building a defense, or blocking someone in.[/QUOTE]
No, but developers can.
The door item can set its own small, owner-independent zone of protection against placement from other blocks that's just large enough to allow the door to swing wide open and close without being blocked. Why would anyone ever want to put a wall 2 inches from their own door? Walls shouldn't allow stairs to stick to them in weird ways. And so on.
Fixing building exploits is NOT impossible and I don't understand why you're rejecting this. You shouldn't be able to use building exploits to raid [B]or[/B] grief, and if the server can stop you from noclipping because you're not supposed to, it can stop you from placing building pieces in invalid ways--like placing a wall an inch from a door.
Why do you need to authenticate per block to be prevented from sticking a wall against a door? You don't need a TC or admin babysitting to prevent building exploits.
[IMG]http://www.homeinspectionman.com/system/files/images/oswego-home-inspector-blocked-toilet-door.jpg[/IMG]
Look at this photo and understand this is the kind of thing the TC is preventing. There's no reason for Rust to allow you to do this kind of thing, except that right now it [I]does[/I] because it hasn't been coded to -- and that is the long-term solution that the developers will get to later. Until then, the TC is the stopgap solution to prevent the game from being 100% griefing (which is no fun at all).
garry wants Rust to develop into a game where you don't have a building, you have a compound. This means you are going to have to adapt your building style as the game changes. Don't worry so much about solving everything permanently using only what's available temporarily.
[QUOTE=elixwhitetail;48179400]No, but developers can.
The door item can set its own small, owner-independent zone of protection against placement from other blocks that's just large enough to allow the door to swing wide open and close without being blocked. Why would anyone ever want to put a wall 2 inches from their own door? Walls shouldn't allow stairs to stick to them in weird ways. And so on.
[/QUOTE]
Actually, If you have expanded enough, an old entrance may become a vulnerability, and I may want to block it, instead of tearing it down, tearing the frame down, to put up a new wall. Or maybe I just want to be creative, and put a dummy door, with a barricade directly behind it to fool intruders. Did that once, found the door broken down next log-on. It was fantastic XD
But that's beside the point.
The Issue isn't Building exploits. The issue is greifing. That if you build a base, I can build a small wall of 5-7 barricades in a circle around your doors range. I can build a small tower jumping-distance from your base. That is the issue TC's stop.
The authentication per block thing, Is to allow clan members to build on that block. Without a TC, you cant tell the game to allow your friends to build on what you've built.
And, once Rust's got more defenses in place, you [B]won't[/B] be telling the game to allow your friends to build on what you built. Anyone will be able to build on what you build -- if they make it through.
That's why building pieces don't have ownership in the first place. This was a conscious design decision from the start. garry doesn't [B]want[/B] friends list authorization and shit like that. It's why the TC allows anyone who can interact with it to gain permission to build inside, and not only people designated by the owner.
First of all, I agree completely that ownership per piece is an awful idea.
[QUOTE=elixwhitetail;48179890]And, once Rust's got more defenses in place, you [B]won't[/B] be telling the game to allow your friends to build on what you built. Anyone will be able to build on what you build -- if they make it through.
.[/QUOTE]
I disagree on this part. As it is, starting the game from nothing Is extremely irritating. For your first few hours of playing, unless you are in a clan, you have no defenses. So you could be playing for 3 hours, log off to take care of real life. then next day, log on to find someone has built random crap all over your base, that make it difficult to expand your base later. Or they box you in, by building a closed empty room on the other side, OR If there is a system to determine rooms that have no exit, then they can build you a new entrance, with a locked door.
[QUOTE=n7m6e7;48180112]I disagree on this part. As it is, starting the game from nothing Is extremely irritating. For your first few hours of playing, unless you are in a clan, you have no defenses. So you could be playing for 3 hours, log off to take care of real life. then next day, log on to find someone has built random crap all over your base, that make it difficult to expand your base later. Or they box you in, by building a closed empty room on the other side, OR If there is a system to determine rooms that have no exit, then they can build you a new entrance, with a locked door.[/QUOTE]
Why are you looking at the current state of the game when I'm talking about the future when a number of things have been beefed up and it's NOT fucking trivial to box you in?
I'm talking nine months to a year from now, not two updates from now. Right now, Rust is [B]not balanced[/B], period. It's not the devs' primary focus right now because they're still building the game they designed before they can properly balance it. You don't fret about the paint job on a car when the engine's still in 36 pieces in a factory across town and the doors and roof haven't even been constructed yet.
Think of how much Rust has changed since legacy. Why is this impossible to imagine?
[QUOTE=elixwhitetail;48179095]Realism should never trump gameplay. The developers have decided that being able to just trap anyone in their base so that they have to suicide and abandon everything is not a core gameplay element in Rust, so this behaviour has to be prevented somehow.
A land-claim system, [U]simply to solve building griefing like walling in all doors[/U], is a cheap and fast, but blunt-hammer, solution to the problem, because it changes the whole gameplay meta for raiding and building. If you also want players to be able to stake claim on a piece of land and have automatic protection while doing so as a core gameplay mechanic, then such a system is fine, of course.
Rust isn't like that. When garry implemented building in the new version of Rust, building pieces very explicitly do not understand ownership. This was a conscious design decision by the devs. So, staking land claims is not an intended part of the gameplay--[B]unless garry changes his mind[/B], which is always possible.
So, unless he changes his mind, we have a problem to solve and the ultimate solution shouldn't be land claims. Instead, the game simply shouldn't allow you to grief in ways considered unacceptable, and that means preventing walls from blocking doors in. It means making stair-raiding impossible by making stairs be unable to attach that way, and only in the ways they're supposed to.
I mean, you aren't allowed to cheat, either, and if you're caught, you're punished with a ban, but you don't need a "that's unrealistic" justification for coding the game to prevent noclipping. If we go the realism argument, you should be server-banned until the next wipe when you die, because in RL you don't get to respawn at a sleeping bag if you get shot in the head and bleed out on the floor, but that would be absolutely [B]zero[/B] fun for anyone.[/QUOTE]
I would have at least one fun with that. I like hardcore
Please for the love of rust. it would be amazing if the TC's where removed again.. the legacy solution was so much more fun, but then they would need to re introduce the ability to build halfway in on the foundation again so you can pillar block and prevent griefing that way :) but wood also wayy to abundant atm but maybe it wont be so bad because of the newly balanced health
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