Server Authority Prioritisation is annoying, take notes, hosters. - Garry's Mod

I'm annoyed by every server that thinks servers authority is more important than the players and in some cases possible consumers. Every server that I join has the common rule "The (insert position here) is always right" or "Respect the moderators" which should be the other way around because player's are more important than the moderators without player's, the servers would be empty and redundant to the server list. Just because they have the permission to ban or kick people does not mean they are in higher ground, and even a common motto can be found in commercial industry which something refers to "Customers before employees". Hosters, if you want a better community, please prioritize the people's experience. This is what MoronYard.com is known for, he dedicated himself into making more gameplay and experience for the players. This recent encounter has influenced me to do this rant. Brief backstory because the logs didint go that far : Joined the server, read the rules (Agian with mod>player), I had an Idea with wiremod so I noclip into the secret in gm_construct, Once I got there, a co-owner was there. [QUOTE]Welcome to [RSB] Rhys' Serious Build ! We're playing gm_flatgrass. [UTime]Welcome to our server SilverArrow! [RSB Builder] Ryan The Destroyer Of Worlds: what was that for [Co_Owner] IceLord: !slay silver (Someone) slayed You [RSB Builder] SilverArrow: ? [RSB Builder] SilverArrow: Aboose. [Co_Owner] IceLord: no grief [Co_Owner] IceLord: I'm the co owner fucktard SilverArrow suicided! [Co_Owner] IceLord: !slay silver (Someone) slayed You [RSB Builder] SilverArrow: Nice moderating. [Co_Owner] IceLord: !kick silver disrespect, harrassing Disconnect: Kicked by IceLord(STEAM_0:1:42814699) (disrespect, harrassing). Disconnect: Kicked by IceLord(STEAM_0:1:42814699) (disrespect, harrassing). I came back to the server and expecting to build but I just wanted to find out why he kicked me : [Co_Owner] IceLord: don't force me to ban [Moderator] teddycrunchukz: so's my table [Co_Owner] IceLord: if you continue being a fucker you'll be ban for 2 months [RSB Builder] SilverArrow: Harassing? K [RSB Builder] SilverArrow: So what did i do? Disconnect: Kicked by IceLord(STEAM_0:1:42814699) (continues harassing). Disconnect: Kicked by IceLord(STEAM_0:1:42814699) (continues harassing).[/QUOTE] After that, I decided to blacklist that server and move on. I found another sandbox server and decided to build in it, in its loading screen it had a list of rules and one caught my eye "Admins are always right". And after seeing that rule I wanted to speak with the admin on why does every server have that rule : [QUOTE]SilverArrow: Every server I see, why does everyone prioratise admins over players? Requesting texture value from var "$basetexture" which is not a texture value (material: pp/copy) [Ayu] Aeomi Ayu: You're not making sense? [Ayu] Aeomi Ayu: Rephrase that SilverArrow: Every server I see has a rule, "Admins are always right" and something simila to that [Ayu] Aeomi Ayu: Because they are SilverArrow: And they think Admins>Players [Ayu] Aeomi Ayu: They keep order You're playing on Elerion, enjoy your stay! [Ayu] Aeomi Ayu: Obviously SilverArrow: But sure, without players, servers would be pointless. [Ayu] Aeomi Ayu: Servers with spam and prop pushing > also pointless SilverArrow: Sure admins only have to do their duty, and not have higher rights than players unless the player is braking the rules. [Ayu] Aeomi Ayu: The higher rank you are the more you can do [Ayu] Aeomi Ayu: Players thus strive naturally for a higher rank [Ayu] Aeomi Ayu: To do so, they follow the rules [Ayu] Aeomi Ayu: It's a system that works [Ayu] Aeomi Ayu: Don't complain about it SilverArrow: But then agian, you hear mottos in shops and industries "Customer is more important than the employee" [Ayu] Aeomi Ayu: Except this is not a shop SilverArrow: But without us, players, you would be nothing but emptiness [Ayu] Aeomi Ayu: You already said that SilverArrow: The point is, all servers shouldnt force the players to get on their knees for the authority of servers. Disconnect: Kicked by [Ayu] Aeomi Ayu(STEAM_0:1:40454533) (Banned permanently: Don't cry wittle boy). Disconnect: Kicked by [Ayu] Aeomi Ayu(STEAM_0:1:40454533) (Banned permanently: Don't cry wittle boy). [/QUOTE] Nothing has been edited or taken out except the lua errors and other players conversation. "First encounter" [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/sKFP70B.png[/IMG] "Big discussion" [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/AzoXw6q.png[/IMG]

One of the rules I absolutely hate is when administrators/moderators kick/ban someone for "administrator/moderator disrespect". Most servers that operate in this fashion, excluding some anomalies will usually die out.

Seems to be me like an immature community filled with 12 year old admins and a 10 year old owner, and a stupid domain MoronYard.com! Customers should always come first, to let them know they're supported, as to regards above no one should join that server!

Considering most servers are run for free you have no moral right to complain. You are not a customer unless you paid for something. You are a guest in their house. Does that mean they should be an asshole just cause? No. But at the same time if they are just move on. Their server will die out if they push people away. It is their server to ruin however they want.

Admin respect's a dumb rule for people with ego issues. A server's like a club, you make sure the people have a good time and you bounce the idiots and troublemakers. If you run a server to have kids lick your boots over the internet you're doing it wrong. I'm a lead admin on a build server and we keep it informal. There's a rank hierarchy - if you're not dumb and you're likeable, you ascend. Keeps the good people on, and they keep the server fun. On the other tack, as an admin I don't have a duty to tolerate you. You are not a customer - I provide to you a free service from my own time. You're not paying for the server and if you've done something to tarnish my impression of you, you're probably not staying. Blacklist me, cry, DoS me a little if you're 12 and then move on. When I play a game I want to have fun, not provide an internet childcare service. If you're using "admin" and "duty" in the same sentence, you're taking it too seriously. We're here to mop up the spills, but we're primarily here to play the damn game. Two cents from an evil nasty admin.

[QUOTE=erie1555;41037788]One of the rules I absolutely hate is when administrators/moderators kick/ban someone for "administrator/moderator disrespect". Most servers that operate in this fashion, excluding some anomalies will usually die out.[/QUOTE] I can't agree more, I hate the rule because its so opinionated that its essentially a free card to ban as and when you choose. I have many pet hates none more so then when "the owners" find the need to have an owner tag or a loading screen says who the owner is. At the minute there is so much short-termism in staffing because either the community is badly managed, the staff aren't paid or players are only interested in the job that gets them the biggest rep with their peers. The fact of the matter is they can get away with it...

[QUOTE=Kigen;41038378]Considering most servers are run for free you have no moral right to complain. You are not a customer unless you paid for something. You are a guest in their house. Does that mean they should be an asshole just cause? No. But at the same time if they are just move on. Their server will die out if they push people away. It is their server to ruin however they want.[/QUOTE] That's like saying in real life, you're a guest at their house they can abuse and possibly murder you if they want, you're dumb, everyone has rights, and it's not your right to come into here and complain.

"The customer is always right" and "Customers before employees" Are the two most stupid phrases that can ever be said about a business. Treating your employees well is crucial. Backing them up when they are not in the wrong is crucial. If you let some abusive customer mouth off your employee, and then agree with the customer (because the customer is always right, right?) do you know what happens? You lose your employee. You then have to hire a new one, who won't know what they're doing and so: you provide a shit service. Backing your employee will raise their morale, making them feel appreciated and maybe not hate their job. That gives a greater level of service to the majority of customers, at the cost of insulting one abusive customer. Unfortunately most retail stores don't realise this yet. I'm only responsible for a few people on occasion in my store, but I treat them like I mentioned above. It works wonders. Moving out of business terms though: In the end, you don't have to play a certain server. That server is run by someone, or a group of people. They can do whatever they like with it and that's something you have to accept (or fuck off to another server). I don't necessarily agree that some sweaty 12 year old power-playing nerd deserves any respect, I'm just saying you don't have a right to complain when you get banned. Because it isn't your server.

I understand the frustration this brings, but this has been happening for such a long time now. If I even see a server with this elitist attitude, I won't give them a second glance. For example, I used to play Perp a lot. One server had this motto similar to what the OP was talking about, "Always respect the admin, don't argue." (Ironically, they were selling admin for $10 a month.) This kind of contradiction just gives me a headache just by reading it. Makes me wonder if the admins actually do play the game instead of waiting to catch a player make a minor slip up.

I've dealt with several scenarios like this on Garry's Mod, but by far I see it on RP more then any other gamemode. I can't blame them for being short-tempered considering they are practically babysitting kids who have panic attacks when things don't go their way(lol RDM/NLR). That's where it ends though. Once you start using the little, "YOUR BEING DISRESPECTFUL" or "YOUR HURTING MY FEELINGS!" because someone disagrees with you on something which isn't going to harm the server or the experience of other players, it's at that point you need to step back, take a chill pill, and reevaluate your life. If your buttons get pressed by someone critiquing you or pulling your chain harmlessly, and you use your powers to remove them, you are pathetic. Nothing more, nothing less.

[QUOTE=Flapadar;41039409]"The customer is always right" and "Customers before employees" Are the two most stupid phrases that can ever be said about a business. Treating your employees well is crucial. Backing them up when they are not in the wrong is crucial. If you let some abusive customer mouth off your employee, and then agree with the customer (because the customer is always right, right?) do you know what happens? You lose your employee. You then have to hire a new one, who won't know what they're doing and so: you provide a shit service. Backing your employee will raise their morale, making them feel appreciated and maybe not hate their job. That gives a greater level of service to the majority of customers, at the cost of insulting one abusive customer. Unfortunately most retail stores don't realise this yet. I'm only responsible for a few people on occasion in my store, but I treat them like I mentioned above. It works wonders. Moving out of business terms though: In the end, you don't have to play a certain server. That server is run by someone, or a group of people. They can do whatever they like with it and that's something you have to accept (or fuck off to another server). I don't necessarily agree that some sweaty 12 year old power-playing nerd deserves any respect, I'm just saying you don't have a right to complain when you get banned. Because it isn't your server.[/QUOTE] You dont get my point. Servers should respect the players more and that annoying self-centering rule can be found in every server, not complaining about the ban. Its just that those bans influenced me to make this rant. Thanks for the opinion tho.

You don't get our point. Who are servers going to respect more, the player who's just joined and is an unknown in terms of friendliness/intelligence, or a vip/mod/admin who is known for not being a dumbass and [i]is also a player[/i]. You're arguing that we should hold strangers in greater regard than friends, but we can't because strangers are less important than friends. I've already given my 2cents on ego-massaging admin respect rules which are all the rage on communities run by kids (protip: don't play there), but outside of those places you're arguing against human community. You won't change that.

[QUOTE]communities run by kids (protip: don't play there)[/QUOTE] Good luck finding a mature community, 100:1 (Kids:Mature)

The point of having a rule that say respect admin. Is because if admin tells you that you are doing something you shouldent do then you should respect them and stop. But it shouldent be a need for writing this rule because you already should understand that you shall respect the people that take care of the community that you play on for free.

To be fair, the problem is not that the server has that sort of rules; it's that the server has really shitty admins. It's not like it would have mattered if that was in the rules or not, when an admin is abusing the made up rules in the motd doesn't mean shit anyway.

sure they dont make a community for peoples enjoyment, they create it and hope for an income from donations and buying admins and vip's.

When I ran my old community I forced the rule "Admins and players are equal" meaning, that the admin's cant ban a player for being a player. It makes no fucking sense, it's stupid. Admins had to adhere to the rules as well, no one was exempt from it.

[QUOTE=Splambob;41043642]You don't get our point. Who are servers going to respect more, the player who's just joined and is an unknown in terms of friendliness/intelligence, or a vip/mod/admin who is known for not being a dumbass and [i]is also a player[/i]. You're arguing that we should hold strangers in greater regard than friends, but we can't because strangers are less important than friends. I've already given my 2cents on ego-massaging admin respect rules which are all the rage on communities run by kids (protip: don't play there), but outside of those places you're arguing against human community. You won't change that.[/QUOTE] You have to deal with both of them just as well. A stranger can keep coming back just as much as any VIP/MOD/ADMIN the only difference being you need to keep the strangers coming in order to fill the slots. As soon as your servers becomes unpopular those VIPS/MODS/ADMINS aren't going to give a shit about your community either and are gunna just go. As someone mentioned above to whom I couldn't find again to quote, communities aren't made anymore for fun anymore. They are made to make money

I've been an admin for 2 years now, same server same place and It's a great experience, no doubt once you start off you're like "Yes, power over people what more could I ask for" and it does get to you. At the start I did kick but never ban for admin disrespect as I felt I needed that special bit of respect and if someone were to call me a cunt I'd get mad and kick them. As of now I've realized the best way to admin is to just be apathetic towards everything, EVERYTHING. Someone called your mother a crack whore, simply say "Aye, good one." Someone make a rape threat to a family member, out freak them with "Not before I do!" As for the "I'm always right" rule. Yes complete bullshite. Of course when I say be apathetic I mean just towards disrespect and people who are upset with your verdict or choices. Still enforce the rules just do it without emotions.

What that rule means is don't argue with an admin in the server. You aren't going to win. I really don't see why people think that the server is the appropriate place to argue with an admin over a decision. Most communities have a place on their website to deal with admin abuse accusations.

[QUOTE=Kigen;41044909] Most communities have a place on their website to deal with admin abuse accusations.[/QUOTE] Of course the chances of finding a non biased group of admins who don't support each other in an abuse claim blindly without looking at the opposition merely because they're not one of them is rare, in personal experience.

[QUOTE=Rakenson;41044930]Of course the chances of finding a non biased group of admins who don't support each other in an abuse claim blindly without looking at the opposition merely because they're not one of them is rare, in personal experience.[/QUOTE] Then it would be better to find a different server to play on.

[QUOTE=Silverarrow47;41043698]Good luck finding a mature community, 100:1 (Kids:Mature)[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Silverarrow47;41044005]sure they dont make a community for peoples enjoyment, they create it and hope for an income from donations and buying admins and vip's.[/QUOTE] Are we talking RP/etc communities or build communities? I can't speak much about the former but you don't have to search far for a mature build server. There's great communities in Peacebuild and FRS and I'll invite you personally to Cre8ive, we'll treat you right if you treat us right. None of these servers are set up for profit like you've suggested, we're in it for the fun of building with friends - I think server profiteering is more of an RP thing. [QUOTE=Effektiv;41044382]You have to deal with both of them just as well. A stranger can keep coming back just as much as any VIP/MOD/ADMIN the only difference being you need to keep the strangers coming in order to fill the slots. As soon as your servers becomes unpopular those VIPS/MODS/ADMINS aren't going to give a shit about your community either and are gunna just go.[/QUOTE] I can see that in the RP/TTT sector but it's a bit different for builders. It doesn't affect our traffic much because builders tend to stick around places they know they like: and they tend to prefer stricter moderation because they dislike disruptions. The Gluttony/Cre8ive community has been around for more than 4 years and we have some very good (multi-year) member retention times so we must be doing it right. Everyone gets a chance at a first impression and we don't ask you to lick our boots and sing our hymns, but we expect you to be slightly mature or we'll ban you regardless of your rank. Had to ban a regular with 200 hours yesterday because he went full on kidmode. We knew he was young and his playtime protected him, but when he tried to crash us he had to go.

For the [SUB][SUP][relatively short][/SUP][/SUB] time I had a build server running, I maintained a rule that one was to obey admins no matter what. If you didn't like that, you were free to leave, and if you felt that the admin was in the wrong, you were free to take it up with another admin or me. For the extent of the server's life, I only ever had a handful of complaints about admins. Half of them were bogus claims made by malcontents that I didn't want on my server in the first place, and the other half I personally dealt with as soon as was convenient. This is how any modern community works in real life. You obey the authorities no matter what, and if you think they're in the wrong you move through the chain of command to sort out the issue. This is the best solution to the problem, as it causes less in-server drama and keeps the server relatively calm and in order. The only times I ever had issues was when someone made a point of going against the administration. My server was populated mostly by people that I've had a history with and that I trusted to some extent; my administration was comprised of those I trusted the most. That you think that a server owner should completely ignore this kind of relationship and blindly trust any player that happens to waltz in is absurd and unrealistic. That's not to say that some servers don't take it too far, but any respectable server shouldn't have administration issues. You really shouldn't have a problem with this type of administrative system, as (unless you're joining really shit servers) you'll never run into complications with the rules unless you're breaking them outright and getting caught. If that's the case, you really shouldn't be calling out owners on their rules and restrictions.

[QUOTE=Rakenson;41044855]I've been an admin for 2 years now, same server same place and It's a great experience, no doubt once you start off you're like "Yes, power over people what more could I ask for" and it does get to you. At the start I did kick but never ban for admin disrespect as I felt I needed that special bit of respect and if someone were to call me a cunt I'd get mad and kick them. As of now I've realized the best way to admin is to just be apathetic towards everything, EVERYTHING. Someone called your mother a crack whore, simply say "Aye, good one." Someone make a rape threat to a family member, out freak them with "Not before I do!" As for the "I'm always right" rule. Yes complete bullshite. Of course when I say be apathetic I mean just towards disrespect and people who are upset with your verdict or choices. Still enforce the rules just do it without emotions.[/QUOTE] Within a degree that isn't the right approach. If someone flat out insults you then you should be kicking them, not for disrespecting an admin but for being a twat to a player. Because admins themselves are players. The point is you should treat/be treated the same as any other player and not have to accept hateful insults just because you're an admin. But nor should people have to kiss your arse and pet you softly while you abuse them. Kicking for disrespect is stupid, punishing for overly harsh verbal behavior isn't.

I think the worst part about that rule is when admins use that as justification to make up their own rules. I always carefully read the rules when I join a server, and when I get slayed or kicked for a rule I know doesn't exist, and I bring that up, I end up getting banned or told "IM THE ADMIN I DO AS I PLEASE". Admins aren't always wise, and players shouldn't be confrontational with admins, but if a player has an issue with your decision, I think you should at least hear them out.

I've had my fair share of one-sided events, (Ex: I said SVN version was better than the workshop version followed by asking why he didn't use it, then got banned, though not without his opinion though), and the overall hole in this thing comes from small arguments, or some very minor slip, where an admin may overreact or get very easily pissed. I think the hole "Admin > Player" thing is generally fine, it is usually just an admin that blows it way out of its intended state. Looks like in this case it might actually be a player pushing it out of proportion. Though I think it should be more like this: Admins are more trusted than players, but everyone has equal say in arguments, unless evidence points otherwise. Mainly just a: "Everyone has their say" kinda thing, though I can already see an admin slapping it down as "no im more trusted than u, ur wrong". No escape from abusive admins, there's always going to be one guy somewhere (usually the 'pay 2 moderate' ones).

Stop playing on servers that want you to respect staff but don't care about other players...

Okay, so I'm pretty much gonna echo what most everyone else here is saying, but with a bit of my perspective. The whole "Admin Respect" thing, it's bullshit. If they have to put a Rule on the server that says you have to Respect Admins no matter what, then it suggests that their Admins aren't very respectable people. Respect is earned. I've been running a Theater Server/Community since October of last year, and just yesterday I had to Ban, for a Week, one of my most active players. They broke the rules on videos that are allowed in the server, so I had to Ban them. My Rules are basically the following: No Trolling, Discrimination of any type is not allowed (This includes anything from Race to being a Brony), don't request videos with X, and my personal favorite, "Anything Else not covered in this list should be Common Sense. You will get Banned if you do stupid crap." When my Admins Ban, the Ban must fit the rule that was broken. If they don't, I've created a section on the Forums for Ban Appeals, and a section for reporting Staff Members. I leave it up to the Player to report Mis-conduct if it happens. IMHO, All communities should provide an area where the players can report Admin Abuse, but of course, if the entire Staff is Abusing their power, then its pointless. Little Side-Note, Permanent Bans are thrown around really carelessly in most communities.

[QUOTE=WinterPhoenix;41060598]My Rules are basically the following: No Trolling, Discrimination of any type is not allowed (This includes anything from Race to being a Brony).[/QUOTE] Well that's fairly limiting for a theater server, depending on how you define discrimination. What about comedy clips etc.