College Degree: Whats' more important - Score on degree or actual practical skills? - Developers

Hey, so I am graduation in 2 months (it's been 4 years, studying Computer Science). Basically I am thinking now should I repeat final year or not, my problem is I know loads of practical things like: Java, Android Native, XML, PHP, MySQL, JS, Unity C# etc... in which I get average of 90-100% in projects while I am a bit shit at theories with average of 50% in Exams. Now question is: Which do employers look more for? those who know theory or those who can do stuff? Should I just repeat year or work harder in interview to show myself? Like I can build a fully functioning website without any limits, last year I made an Android App + Website for project which were synced together via MySQL databases and worked hand in hand with each other perfectly, and I ended up getting highest score in class - 94% overall mark. So what's more important to employers these days? I have a year of work experience in IT related company, have some apps to show which were published on Android market + I have 5 months experience working in college helping lecturer during lectures with 1st years.

[QUOTE=arleitiss;47148512] my problem is I know loads of practical things like: Java, Android Native, XML, PHP, MySQL, JS, Unity C# etc... Like I can build a fully functioning website without any limits, last year I made an Android App + Website for project which were synced together via MySQL databases and worked hand in hand with each other perfectly, and I ended up getting highest score in class - 94% overall mark. So what's more important to employers these days? I have a year of work experience in IT related company, have some apps to show which were published on Android market + I have 5 months experience working in college helping lecturer during lectures with 1st years.[/QUOTE] All this you can put in your CV, except those 94% only you and your professor care about. If you get to the interview they might ask you some theory, and some companies have additional tests to see if you can program and stuff. Some companies even make psychology tests.

Most employers look for experience and certifications, especially in the IT field. Having a degree will solidify the backbone of experience and represent an achievement in your knowledge that employers prefer and sometimes require.

A degree isn't a requirement, but it helps your foot to stay in the door when you get it in. Inversely, an employer will be more interested in certifications and past projects (be they business or personal) than they would just you having a degree in Computer Science. After all, just because you have a degree doesn't mean you have actual experience in the field.

Not completely unrelated, I gave up getting 100% on all of my scores after they kept reducing my marks for stupid stuff like putting a return statement in a function before the end, despite it removing the need for 3 indented if statements. There is way too much bias, once you hit 80-90% they just look for things to mark you down on.

[QUOTE=reevezy67;47195103]Not completely unrelated, I gave up getting 100% on all of my scores after they kept reducing my marks for stupid stuff like putting a return statement in a function before the end, despite it removing the need for 3 indented if statements. There is way too much bias, once you hit 80-90% they just look for things to mark you down on. [/QUOTE] Not every institution or teacher will be like that though; it isn't something I've experienced at least.

[QUOTE=reevezy67;47195103]Not completely unrelated, I gave up getting 100% on all of my scores after they kept reducing my marks for stupid stuff like putting a return statement in a function before the end, despite it removing the need for 3 indented if statements. There is way too much bias, once you hit 80-90% they just look for things to mark you down on.[/QUOTE] Last semester I had a lecturer mark me down for doing something he called bad practice. On the next coursework the example code he gave us did the same thing. I wanted to get 100% in basically everything but being marked down like that makes it hard.

Yeah, it's bullshit. There's no arguing with them either.

A friend of mine was tasked to write a function that will run in constant space and solve some problem. He solved it recursively, but they ducked him points because of the growing stack. When he went to complain, because his recursive call was in a tail call position and the stack wouldn't grow, they basically said "You can leave, or I can take more points from you"

[QUOTE=Darwin226;47196235]A friend of mine was tasked to write a function that will run in constant space and solve some problem. He solved it recursively, but they ducked him points because of the growing stack. When he went to complain, because his recursive call was in a tail call position and the stack wouldn't grow, they basically said "You can leave, or I can take more points from you"[/QUOTE] Maybe I should bring a voice recorder if I'm ever in a situation like that... That response is dangerously close to what I'd start legal action over if it goes through the instances unchecked (since I'm fairly sure I have insurance for it). [editline]edit[/editline] However, it's normally more common here for points to be subtracted from the possible total if the question was bad instead of shifting the blame to the student. That means it's probably more likely for complaints about that kind of behaviour to be successful.

If you bring a voice recorder you would get arrested for illegal wire tapping lmao.

[QUOTE=LegendaryRPG;47201967]If you bring a voice recorder you would get arrested for illegal wire tapping lmao.[/QUOTE] I never said I'd do so secretly. Besides that, if they refuse the recording then you can always opt to do the whole thing in writing so there's a paper trail (which is a lot less confrontational anyway). (I think that's also an option after they start to dismiss you in person. You can just politely end the conversation in a non-committal way and resubmit your request on paper.) Where I live it's probably not worth the trouble though unless they are completely going against what's decent like in the example above. The grades you get in university (outside of whether you graduate) seem to be almost completely irrelevant for hiring (which doesn't really surprise me, the uni stuff isn't that much of an indicator for general programming ability as far as I know).

[QUOTE=Darwin226;47196235]A friend of mine was tasked to write a function that will run in constant space and solve some problem. He solved it recursively, but they ducked him points because of the growing stack. When he went to complain, because his recursive call was in a tail call position and the stack wouldn't grow, they basically said "You can leave, or I can take more points from you"[/QUOTE] that teacher, what a retard

I have a 2.1 GPA and a stable, full-time development job with a well-established, international company. Don't worry about scores.

as a computer engineering student with part focus on computer science maybe my experience is a little different, but going out for job fairs and internships, the employers i talked to said it really comes down to knowing how to solve the problem at hand. a lot of places are willing to overlook less than expected testing scores as long as you're good at what you do and can do it without too much oversight from other people.

Well, to be honest I'm not entirely sure myself. The company I work for offer apprenticeships which is a great opportunity for people who don't want to attend university as well as you get trained in C#, SQL, PHP, Python, HTML, CSS, ASP.NET and a variety of other things, and then at the end you get a job with the company or one of it's partners at a better salary than you would if you started as a junior. If you have a degree, you're going to want experience too, and if you don't have that experience it'll be tougher to find a job, on the flip side, though, if you do have a degree and when you eventually find a job, you will not start on a junior salary, you'll not be an entry level chump, you'll probably start nearer a senior salary.

Think I might get somewhere if I get average of 50% on all my scores, have about 4 android apps to show, 3 websites to show and 1 desktop software to show as projects? + I have 1.5 years experience in IT

[QUOTE=Protocol7;47210450]I have a 2.1 GPA and a stable, full-time development job with a well-established, international company. Don't worry about scores.[/QUOTE] The one with worse score is smarter since he had to work less to get through college :v:

I really want to say your portfolio is way more important than a degree but I think it just depends from company to company. IIRC Facepunch Studios hired people based on what they made in the past.

[QUOTE=Fourier;47244223]The one with worse score is smarter since he had to work less to get through college :v:[/QUOTE] I fully admit to being a dishonorable, lazy student. It works great for me.

Just had a real chance of getting job in IBM for Java developer. Failed phone interview because didn't know basic concepts of OOP, they asked: what is encapsulation in java, overriding in java, inheritance and stuff like that. It was a fiasco, really dreading graduating now, would gladly fail college this year on purpose just to avoid work :(

It wouldn't hurt to get an associate's degree at a technical college, it's pretty cheap compared to a university. [B]Edit:[/B] Oh shit wrong thread, I assumed this was AnonTakesOver's thread. Wasn't really paying attention.

[QUOTE=arleitiss;47270253]Just had a real chance of getting job in IBM for Java developer. Failed phone interview because didn't know basic concepts of OOP, they asked: what is encapsulation in java, overriding in java, inheritance and stuff like that. It was a fiasco, really dreading graduating now, would gladly fail college this year on purpose just to avoid work :([/QUOTE] I have interviewed people who cannot solve [url=http://blog.codinghorror.com/why-cant-programmers-program]"fizz-buzz"[/url] on a white board after us leaving the room for 10 minutes after having asked questions (assuming they have not heard of it). The most important thing is that whatever you study you need to know how to [I]actually do that thing.[/I] Otherwise, if you get out you'll need to go to grad school to teach it or you won't have a job.

[QUOTE=bord2tears;47282051]I have interviewed people who cannot solve [url=http://blog.codinghorror.com/why-cant-programmers-program]"fizz-buzz"[/url] on a white board after us leaving the room for 10 minutes after having asked questions (assuming they have not heard of it). The most important thing is that whatever you study you need to know how to [I]actually do that thing.[/I] Otherwise, if you get out you'll need to go to grad school to teach it or you won't have a job.[/QUOTE] i think i might have heard about this a while back but it's pretty hilarious and surprising. to solve a problem, especially in programming, its important to actually know what tools you have and what they do. that being said i was surprised in the software industry how many people don't know some really basic stuff. this is why its really beneficial to do all of these seemingly menial small exercises when learning programming, because you learn a lot of different ways to do different things and understand what you are working with. i wanted to have a go myself without googling anything and came up with this, i assume an if/else statement would be fine as well but i love ternary/modulo for simple problems and trying to compress it down to as few lines as possible if its not something that will need to be readable. [code] for (int i = 1; i <= 100; i++) { Console.WriteLine(i + (i % 3 == 0 && i % 5 == 0 ? " FizzBuzz" : (i % 3 == 0 ? " Fizz" : (i % 5 == 0 ? " Buzz" : ""))) ); } [/code]

[QUOTE=Cushie;47301800]i think i might have heard about this a while back but it's pretty hilarious and surprising. to solve a problem, especially in programming, its important to actually know what tools you have and what they do. that being said i was surprised in the software industry how many people don't know some really basic stuff. this is why its really beneficial to do all of these seemingly menial small exercises when learning programming, because you learn a lot of different ways to do different things and understand what you are working with. i wanted to have a go myself without googling anything and came up with this, i assume an if/else statement would be fine as well but i love ternary/modulo for simple problems and trying to compress it down to as few lines as possible if its not something that will need to be readable. [code] for (int i = 1; i <= 100; i++) { Console.WriteLine(i + (i % 3 == 0 && i % 5 == 0 ? " FizzBuzz" : (i % 3 == 0 ? " Fizz" : (i % 5 == 0 ? " Buzz" : ""))) ); } [/code][/QUOTE] In my experience college programming classes rarely, if ever, pushed students to program anything that they didn't have a book holding their hand the entire way for. With such an approach to learning, and the emphasis on (multiple choice answer) tests, I find it hardly surprising that so many students are able to get a college degree in computer science without being able to solve actual problems.

What I find is taught in college is mostly book-smarts. For me, I see learning about computer architecture, assembly and low-level networking (and more!) as completely valid. The information isn't incorrect. But how relevant is it? My knowledge of all of these things is, in my experience, not useful in any way, shape or form to either my job or personal projects. Like I said, that doesn't mean I didn't learn anything, or that the information taught is wrong; rather that the skills I personally find more valuable for personal projects and work, like problem solving, knowledge of tools and people skills - are not things that are really taught in college. It's definitely dependent on where you want to take your career. I personally 100% regret entering a comp sci degree program, because the first ~60 credit hours I have taken have all been refreshers on things I already know, or general requirements that are definitely useless. I don't regret college, but I wish I took a different major.

As far as I can tell it boils down to: Scores will get you the job, practical skills will keep you the job

Well lets say there is two kinds of people: 1) Those who know how specific software works. and 2) Those who can make specific software from scratch and vaguely explain in technical terms how it works. well I am the 2nd one, which makes me afraid I wont get job

Why you won't get a job if you are better than first one?

[QUOTE=Fourier;47327980]Why you won't get a job if you are better than first one?[/QUOTE] Because it seems most employers these days ask for 1st type, they want you to describe something specific in technical complicated terms. I mean when I was on call with IBM, they literally fried me with somewhat theoretical questions like object oriented programming (which I think is more of a standard/concept/theory) rather than actual programming skill. I mean I have no problem following object oriented concept if I am told what to write or make specifically, but I can't go outside of my scope and explain what it is, how it works, what its' for etc... [editline]15th March 2015[/editline] Required: • BSc, MSc (Have it almost, but they still called as I said I am graduating in 2 months) • Java/J2EE development (I can make software easily in Java) • Excellent knowledge of Web technologies and platforms – PHP, Javascript (Dojo, Jquery), HTML, CSS, XML, Smarty, AJAX (Know all of them except Smarty and Dojo) • Demonstrable RDBMS skills - DB2, SQL Server etc (SQL server is fine, he asked give me a simple SQL query, I said: let's say we have database with table named users which has id, email, password and name), so lets select user ID based on his email and password - SELECT id FROM users WHERE email=entered email AND password = entered password. He said okay, very good. • Experience developing in a cross-platform environment (Windows, Linux, Unix) (I have no problem working on Windows or Linux servers via command line) • Experience with WebSphere, Weblogic, Apache, JBoss (Have experience with Apache) • Experience within an Agile environment (Wasn't asked) • Excellent troubleshooting skills (Wasn't asked) • Excellent negotiation skills (Wasn't asked) • Excellent written and verbal communication skills with fluency in English (Well, I talked without a struggle) LI-EO1 Required Bachelor's Degree (yes) At least 2 years experience in Java Development (1/2) English: Fluent (yes) However, I got mainly smoked with OOP questions. Guess application was somewhat misleading.