I just watched the Documentary "CODE: Debuggin the Gender Gap", which is about women's experience in the CS industry and it was totally eye opening to the kind of shit women have to deal with in a male-dominated industry. At the same time, Electronconf was postponed recently because:
[img]http://i.imgur.com/u5KVrED.png[/img]
I was wondering what everyone's thoughts are? What can we do to encourage girls to go into Computer Science at a young age? What can we do to prevent hiring discrimination and workplace harassment? Do you have any stories from your own experience you want to share?
I think it needs to go from the bottom up. Encourage after school programs, extracurriculars designed to get girls in computer science early. I think hiring practices that put preference on hiring women for no reason other than gender are dangerous, because that introduces the question of whether or not a candidate was hired on skill alone, or based on their gender, which I think only exacerbates the issue.
just dynamic cast the men to women and never actually check
That conference had talks submitted and we're selected blindly, by their content only; they were not given speaker information. They simply picked the most interesting talks.
I'm all for equal opportunity, but when you tread into equal outcome you enter dangerous territory.
[QUOTE=joshjet;52339460]I think it needs to go from the bottom up. Encourage after school programs, extracurriculars designed to get girls in computer science early. I think hiring practices that put preference on hiring women for no reason other than gender are dangerous, because that introduces the question of whether or not a candidate was hired on skill alone, or based on their gender, which I think only exacerbates the issue.[/QUOTE]
I agree, but at the same time I've heard a lot of stories of male-dominated companies having an actively hostile environment for women. Uber is the worst example I can think of and I know before Github started to turn itself around it had some stories like that as well. So while there needs to be a bottom-up approach, I think a kind of top-down approach needs to address company's culture as well and prevent them from turning into total frat houses, without effectively telling HR or recruiters to go after women specifically.
I think you're trying to treat a symptom and not the actual cause; some people are just shitty. This happens across all careers, take computer science out of the equation. Trying to get more women into computer science will not fix the shitty people problem.
We need less programmers, not more. There is so much noise in this industry already. Adding gender dynamics and PC bullshit in the mix is only making things worse.
Everyone talks about getting girls to code but nobody ever talks about getting them in construction, plumbing, etc.
The real problem in Stem fields are white women.
[QUOTE=Not64;52340874]We need less programmers, not more. There is so much noise in this industry already. Adding gender dynamics and PC bullshit in the mix is only making things worse.
Everyone talks about getting girls to code but nobody ever talks about getting them in construction, plumbing, etc.[/QUOTE]
I live in SoCal, I could go make more money being a plumber contractor than I do and any plumber here. Blue collar work is seen as a failure in the 21st century.
I'm not sure why there is such an uprising in CS specifically for more females into it. Universities already give major bonus points to female applicants. If you look at Berkeley's admission statistics, you'll see that 54% women are enrolled in EECS when the applications are disproportionately male.
There are plenty of professions that have a huge gender disparity on BOTH sides. You don't hear about any programs to get males more involved in female dominated professions.
"Confidence" for a female to choose CS as a major isn't the problem; it's a people problem.
Anyone who wants can volunteer to mentor or help out at [url]https://girlswhocode.com/volunteer/[/url]
[QUOTE=proboardslol;52340992]Anyone who wants can volunteer to mentor or help out at [url]https://girlswhocode.com/volunteer/[/url][/QUOTE]
Literally No [del]Girls[/del] Boys allowed education service
[QUOTE=Proclivitas;52340960]I live in SoCal, I could go make more money being a plumber contractor than I do and any plumber here. Blue collar work is seen as a failure in the 21st century.
I'm not sure why there is such an uprising in CS specifically for more females into it. Universities already give major bonus points to female applicants. If you look at Berkeley's admission statistics, you'll see that 54% women are enrolled in EECS when the applications are disproportionately male.
There are plenty of professions that have a huge gender disparity on BOTH sides. [B]You don't hear about any programs to get males more involved in female dominated professions. [/B]
"Confidence" for a female to choose CS as a major isn't the problem; it's a people problem.[/QUOTE]
I hear people say this all the time but it would be [I]great[/I] to get more programs where guys could get into female dominated professions. Teaching and child-care come to mind, personally. But every time someone says this, then nobody really... does anything. It's used as a "gotcha" for programs trying to help women get into male dominated fields but it'd be a lot more productive if people actually pushed for programs for the opposite instead of just using it as evidence for an argument. But I just don't see that happen.
If more people actually supported that kind of thing [I]all[/I] the time, it'd probably be a really cool awesome thing.
[QUOTE=Pascall;52341053]I hear people say this all the time but it would be [I]great[/I] to get more programs where guys could get into female dominated professions. Teaching and child-care come to mind, personally. But every time someone says this, then nobody really... does anything. It's used as a "gotcha" for programs trying to help women get into male dominated fields but it'd be a lot more productive if people actually pushed for programs for the opposite instead of just using it as evidence for an argument. But I just don't see that happen.
If more people actually supported that kind of thing [I]all[/I] the time, it'd probably be a really cool awesome thing.[/QUOTE]
I think that's kind of the point people are making, I'm not sure what your criticism here is. Is it a "gotcha" point because the people complaining about it don't do anything to change it? Because I don't think they're exactly in a position to exert influence over the situation. Perhaps they also simply don't agree with using blatantly discriminatory practices in the name of getting a more balanced gender distribution, and use this argument to point out the hypocrisy of groups that push for women in X while ignoring the other side.
[QUOTE=_Axel;52341127]I think that's kind of the point people are making, I'm not sure what your criticism here is. Is it a "gotcha" point because the people complaining about it don't do anything to change it? Because I don't think they're exactly in a position to exert influence over the situation. Perhaps they also simply don't agree with using blatantly discriminatory practices in the name of getting a more balanced gender distribution, and use this argument to point out the hypocrisy of groups that push for women in X while ignoring the other side.[/QUOTE]
It's moreso that I [I]only[/I] hear things about it when it's being used in an argument. I never hear things about it outside of that, I never see people encouraging other people to get into these different fields, I never see anyone advocating for it on a regular basis.
It's just absent in general except in internet arguments. If you're gonna advocate for something, advocate for it! Don't just do it when someone else says "well this is a problem, so we're gonna do something about it" so you feel inclined to say "well this is ALSO a problem so your problem matters less".
Like they're both problems. I wanna see men in female dominated roles just as much as I wanna see women in male dominated roles. One doesn't have to be more important than the other.
[editline]11th June 2017[/editline]
Basically, if you're gonna speak out for something, speak out for it all the time. Be consistent. You don't have to go and start an organization or anything, just stick to your guns regardless if there's someone fussing at you on the internet about it or not, y'know what I mean?
[editline]11th June 2017[/editline]
For example, organizations/programs like these should be getting a lot more support and praise! I'd love to see more people bringing them to the spotlight with or without the context of other programs that strive to do the same for women.
[url]http://www.menteach.org/about_men_teach[/url]
[url]http://uscupstate.edu/academics/education/teachingman/Default.aspx?id=36525[/url]
[url]http://www.meninchildcare.co.uk/[/url]
[url]http://www.aamn.org/[/url]
I think the world has a place for both types of organizations and programs. And both sides of the argument should be out here supporting each other rather than trying to play pain olympics with who has it worse/harder or who deserves it more.
[QUOTE=Thlis;52341029]Literally No [del]Girls[/del] Boys allowed education service[/QUOTE]
It's a private organization? They can work with whomever they want? If you want to, volunteer your time to teach coding to whomever you want
[QUOTE=Pascall;52341144]It's moreso that I [I]only[/I] hear things about it when it's being used in an argument. I never hear things about it outside of that, I never see people encouraging other people to get into these different fields, I never see anyone advocating for it on a regular basis.
It's just absent in general except in internet arguments. If you're gonna advocate for something, advocate for it! Don't just do it when someone else says "well this is a problem, so we're gonna do something about it" so you feel inclined to say "well this is ALSO a problem so your problem matters less".
Like they're both problems. I wanna see men in female dominated roles just as much as I wanna see women in male dominated roles. One doesn't have to be more important than the other.
[editline]11th June 2017[/editline]
Basically, if you're gonna speak out for something, speak out for it all the time. Be consistent. You don't have to go and start an organization or anything, just stick to your guns regardless if there's someone fussing at you on the internet about it or not, y'know what I mean?
[editline]11th June 2017[/editline]
For example, organizations/programs like these should be getting a lot more support and praise! I'd love to see more people bringing them to the spotlight with or without the context of other programs that strive to do the same for women.
[url]http://www.menteach.org/about_men_teach[/url]
[url]http://uscupstate.edu/academics/education/teachingman/Default.aspx?id=36525[/url]
[url]http://www.meninchildcare.co.uk/[/url]
[url]http://www.aamn.org/[/url]
I think the world has a place for both types of organizations and programs. And both sides of the argument should be out here supporting each other rather than trying to play pain olympics with who has it worse/harder or who deserves it more.[/QUOTE]
I don't think people here are saying that having more women in men dominated fields is less important than the opposite. At most they're pointing out that there's little exposure to the latter issue, which I think is what you're pointing out here too.
The thing is, statistically most men work in a field that's either male-dominated or evenly distributed, so they don't have much motivation or power to advocate for getting more men in fields they're not involved in.
And people in gender studies, who are the ones who have the adequate expertise and can manage to do it full time, are ironically overwhelmingly women, so it follows that the large majority of gender equality movements center on women problems. So either we apply the same logic to gender studies classes and advocate for more men in there, which could lead to a more balanced gender equality movement, or we ensure that men problems get equal study time in gender studies classes so that women students can be aware of issues they wouldn't learn of otherwise.
[QUOTE=_Axel;52341223]I don't think people here are saying that having more women in men dominated fields is less important than the opposite. At most they're pointing out that there's little exposure to the latter issue, which I think is what you're pointing out here too.
The thing is, statistically most men work in a field that's either male-dominated or evenly distributed, so they don't have much motivation or power to advocate for getting more men in fields they're not involved in.[/QUOTE]
Nah I'm not implying anyone in THIS thread is doing that, but I've definitely seen it happen in other places.
And yeah those kinds of statistics are a fair assumption but I think that if they want a change to happen, regardless if they feel comfortable and okay with their position, that they'll have to step out of their comfort zone and encourage that change for other men who might [I]not[/I] be in those positions. You don't need power to at least spread the word about different programs/orgs that do some good. Other things you can do are donate or volunteer if those are options in the area.
Gotta all help each other is all I'm saying. It gets really tiring seeing programs created for doing good getting disparaged just because the same programs for the opposite gender aren't as advocated for.
[QUOTE=Pascall;52341053]I hear people say this all the time but it would be [I]great[/I] to get more programs where guys could get into female dominated professions. Teaching and child-care come to mind, personally.[/QUOTE]
Men don't go into teaching or child-care as often because they're instantly labeled a paedophila and subject to having to be literally 120% perfect at all times or they'll be the subject of a witch hunt. There are more male uni professors for this reason since at the university level this isn't as much of a problem.
People are just shitty, gender roles are an excuse for shitty people to be shitty. It's not a gender problem, it's a people problem.
[QUOTE=_Axel;52341223]
And people in gender studies, who are the ones who have the adequate expertise and can manage to do it full time, are ironically overwhelmingly women, so it follows that the large majority of gender equality movements center on women problems. [B]So either we apply the same logic to gender studies classes and advocate for more men in there, which could lead to a more balanced gender equality movement, or we ensure that men problems get equal study time in gender studies classes so that women students can be aware of issues they wouldn't learn of otherwise.[/B][/QUOTE]
I mean both of those options would do some good.
[editline]11th June 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=F.X Clampazzo;52341237]Men don't go into teaching or child-care as often because they're instantly labeled a paedophila and subject to having to be literally 120% perfect at all times or they'll be the subject of a witch hunt. There are more male uni professors for this reason since at the university level this isn't as much of a problem.
People are just shitty, gender roles are an excuse for shitty people to be shitty. It's not a gender problem, it's a people problem.[/QUOTE]
Well I mean, exactly.
These issues won't solve themselves nor will they be solved overnight, that's why they need to be brought up consistently by all kinds of people in all contexts like all the time.
[editline]11th June 2017[/editline]
ANYWAY my point is that I'm all for women in coding jobs in the same way I'm all for dudes in other female-dominated job markets and I don't think it's productive to be consistently bringing up "well what about THIS" instead of offering support where it's needed for both parties.
It's all gravy, if we want people to stop being dumb and arguing about who needs what more, we have to be an example and be supportive of all kinds of movements for gender equality in the workforce.
-
I don't believe because they are more women in a profession or vise versa that it justifies any amount of effort to affect change.
It's really a [B]non-[/B]problem and not worth an effort to balance the scale.
If you take the [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5_Whys"]5 Whys[/URL] approach against "Why aren't more women involved in Computer Science?" you can branch out into many scenarios; the worst case is a culture of oppression against women by men in the field, but I return to my original point about this being a people problem in general.
why do people care about diversity again
code is just code man it doesnt matter a shit who slammed on the keyboard
what really matters is if they used tabs or spaces
[QUOTE=awcmon;52355869]why/**/do/**/people/**/care/**/about/**/diversity/**/again
code/**/is/**/just/**/code/**/man/**/it/**/doesnt/**/matter/**/a/**/shit/**/who/**/slammed/**/on/**/the/**/keyboard
what/**/really/**/matters/**/is/**/if/**/they/**/used/**/tabs/**/or/**/spaces[/QUOTE]
I prefer replacing whitespace with inline comments
Could it possibly be that not as many women are interested in slaving away hours of their day typing code as there are men?
Very rarely do I see any women who are as passionate about programming as guys tend to be. That doesn't mean they're not capable of doing it just because of their gender, but we're all different in so many ways.
Employers who deny women a job because of their gender can go fuck themselves. Gender discrimination is a problem and needs to be addressed. But I also feel that one of the reasons it's male-dominated is because there just happens to be more male programmers.
To women interested in programming, I say go for it! If it's something you enjoy doing, pursue a career in it! Are there companies who intentionally refuse to hire women? Call them out, we'll support you!
But if you're not interested, that's perfectly fine. Nobody should force you into something just to make the industry look more diverse. That's just silly.
[QUOTE=CarLuver69;52356123]But I also feel that one of the reasons it's male-dominated is because there just happens to be more male programmers.[/QUOTE]
So what you're saying is that there's a gender disparity because there's a gender disparity?
[QUOTE=CarLuver69;52356123]Could it possibly be that not as many women are interested in slaving away hours of their day typing code as there are men?
Very rarely do I see any women who are as passionate about programming as guys tend to be. That doesn't mean they're not capable of doing it just because of their gender, but we're all different in so many ways.
Employers who deny women a job because of their gender can go fuck themselves. Gender discrimination is a problem and needs to be addressed. But I also feel that one of the reasons it's male-dominated is because there just happens to be more male programmers.
To women interested in programming, I say go for it! If it's something you enjoy doing, pursue a career in it! Are there companies who intentionally refuse to hire women? Call them out, we'll support you!
But if you're not interested, that's perfectly fine. Nobody should force you into something just to make the industry look more diverse. That's just silly.[/QUOTE]
I wouldn't support "positive discrimination" or any kind of forced balancing of genders in unbalanced fields, but there is a point to encouraging unrepresented demographics to go into these fields. Assuming talent is uniformly distributed among the population (which is the case if both genders are just as capable of coding as one another for instance), having one gender being less interested than the other means that you're not picking your employees from the most competent pool possible, because there are male applicants that are less talented than female applicants that could have existed had they been interested in pursuing that career.
I've come to believe, personally, that the entire CS gender disparity debate is fueled primarily by big software houses in the CS-heavy areas like Silicon Valley, in order to increase supply of CS workers and drive down wages, since software engineering is currently one of the few industries in the US where the employees aren't completely powerless.
The fact that the ideologically entrenched socially liberal (but evidently economically ignorant) demographics that make up a lot of California and the web, has chosen to pick up the banner and fight for flooding a job market currently favorable to workers (and where unionization is actually theoretically possible because the power balance isn't tipped outrageously in favor of the employer unlike every other industry) based purely on regressive ideological reasons is just.. I can't even express how retarded it is.
The actual women I've met who work in IT either don't give a shit, or actively hate this bullshit because it diminishes their real achievements by planting a seed of doubt in everyone they encounter about whether or not they actually got to where they were through real quality work, or to fill some arbitrary quota.
I've personally seen sexism in a workplace environment, but 'affirmative action' isn't going to get rid of that.
If anything, it will make precisely that core problem a lot worse, by the mechanism Dr Magnusson just pointed out.
The best (and afaik only) way to get rid of this problem is to smack it down directly whenever it crops up.
You're not going to do anything about anything when all you do is dance around the issue like e.g. Uber does (but that company seems to outright be a criminal enterprise, so it's probably a bad example).
(Re: '[What was your experience?]': I didn't do anything about it at the time because I was a really insecure intern. The guy doesn't work there anymore anyway though.)
[editline]16th June 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=CarLuver69;52356123]Could it possibly be that not as many women are interested in slaving away hours of their day typing code as there are men?
Very rarely do I see any women who are as passionate about programming as guys tend to be. That doesn't mean they're not capable of doing it just because of their gender, but we're all different in so many ways.
Employers who deny women a job because of their gender can go fuck themselves. Gender discrimination is a problem and needs to be addressed. But I also feel that one of the reasons it's male-dominated is because there just happens to be more male programmers.
To women interested in programming, I say go for it! If it's something you enjoy doing, pursue a career in it! Are there companies who intentionally refuse to hire women? Call them out, we'll support you!
But if you're not interested, that's perfectly fine. Nobody should force you into something just to make the industry look more diverse. That's just silly.[/QUOTE]
As far as I can tell, there is an issue but it's not so much a gendered issue as an issue with gendering.
Computer stuff [I]was[/I] female-dominated for a while after all, so there's not necessarily a direct reason why people of one gender would be [I]this much[/I] more interested in the field.
From what I've read online, the generalising(!) anti-sexism campaigning is doing its part to push away many girls and women who'd otherwise consider learning this stuff.
It's say it comes down to the basic simple stuff like if something breaks in your house, it's the dad that fixes it. Boys look up to their fathers and their fathers are the "tinkerers" of the house so they want to tinker as well. I really doubt there's a significant biological bias in your sex determining your interests.
Gender quotas at a work place may help, but probably not. I think things like girl-only coding camps would probably be much more effective. It systematically defeats the "programming is not for girls" mentality because in those cases it's only for girls.
[QUOTE=Darwin226;52366530]It's say it comes down to the basic simple stuff like if something breaks in your house, it's the dad that fixes it. Boys look up to their fathers and their fathers are the "tinkerers" of the house so they want to tinker as well. I really doubt there's a significant biological bias in your sex determining your interests.
Gender quotas at a work place may help, but probably not. I think things like girl-only coding camps would probably be much more effective. It systematically defeats the "programming is not for girls" mentality because in those cases it's only for girls.[/QUOTE]
Imagine if I started a boy-only coding camp. You can't have this notion that boys and girls can't work together. They have coding camps for girls and co-ed camps, but not boys only camps. It's sexist and not the right approach. They also have camps for kids of color only, imagine if I started a camp white children in poverty. It's racist/sexist to segregate people based on biological factors.
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