Hey guys, Biaxialemperor here, and I've got a couple questions about building and optimizing large, detailed, and partitioned maps like Evocity. Particularly, I'm wondering if it is possible to partition the map like how Sgt Sickness did so, but still have a large 3D skybox area like Bigcity has, since I'm thinking of doing a large-ish Deus Ex-themed map and I'd like to have a coastal dock area.
My second question is if it's possible to build a 3D skybox that has multiple levels, as I'm thinking of doing a Mass Effect-themed Citadel map, and I'd like to have both the Presidium and the Wards areas, and I'd like each to be on their own level, but still have their own skybox area. Any clarification on either of those questions would be much appreciated, thanks!
far z with fog and prop fading, and hint and skip :P and you can use occluders in very detailed area's but that's only for not rendering props.
[QUOTE=Biaxailemperor;43488280]Particularly, I'm wondering if it is possible to partition the map like how Sgt Sickness did so, but still have a large 3D skybox area like Bigcity has,[/QUOTE]
Nope, it isn't possible.
[editline]10th January 2014[/editline]
You can use fog with with z clipping but that can look ugly if not done right.
The trick is to make the geometry as simple as possible, with any details being static props that fade out or have extreme LODS. You can make building with only one entrance (no other windows or doors) and use areaportals on the entrance to avoid rendering interiors when they cant be seen.
[QUOTE=Grenade Man;43489311]Nope, it isn't possible.
[editline]10th January 2014[/editline]
You can use fog with with z clipping but that can look ugly if not done right.
The trick is to make the geometry as simple as possible, with any details being static props that fade out or have extreme LODS. You can make building with only one entrance (no other windows or doors) and use areaportals on the entrance to avoid rendering interiors when they cant be seen.[/QUOTE]
Alright, that answers that then. I plan on a lot of my buildings in the maps to have only one entrance anyway, so I'm glad to see that it's still an option for me to have the interiors not render unless you step inside. I also already planned on prop usage, so I'm also glad to see that's covered.
Best part is to build some sort of S-shaped map. Maybe with caves with areaportals for shortcuts. That way it can be very big but only small parts of the map to the world brushes will be renderedd. Like Mobenix3 or something. My biggest mistake was to make a gta-style map but flatgrass-based, but you will never be able to fly above it without getting more than 30fps. Shame cause after 100 hours I noticed this wasn't going to be playable. It's a shame because the gmod maps you could have would be amazing. Evocity shows pretty well how the tricks can be done. I would only like some rivers and traintracks added to it for more modes of transportation and a little bit higher sky/tunnels.
[QUOTE=Grenade Man;43489311]Nope, it isn't possible.[/Quote]
Here I come to disagree!
[quote]
You can use fog with with z clipping but that will look ugly.
[/quote]
ftfy
[quote]
The trick is to make the geometry as simple as possible, with any details being static props that fade out or have extreme LODS.
[/quote]
This is correct, minimising visibility is good awell, no point in putting effort into making lod models for stuff if you dont bother to control when they are visible. Draw calls will still be made.
A point to add to this is optimizing textures. No point in making a fancy pants lod model for all your models if they all have super hi res normal maps with expensive shaders. Put lod stuff into the texture so you don't render a normal map from other side of map. Also limit your textures, do you need to have 5 different textures for a building when 90% of them are the same just with a small trim added? Use geometry. Share textures to cut down texture memory.
[quote]
You can make building with only one entrance (no other windows or doors) and use areaportals on the entrance to avoid rendering interiors when they cant be seen.[/QUOTE]
Not sure about this, I think you can have portals over windows and doors, this was done in atomic. The Ceveat here is it won't block visibility to the other side, so you still need to control your hints and skips on the building.
As someone mentioned just control visibility. Don't try shaving a few fps by remodelling everything if your entire map is visible at once.
For the 3d skybox. You can have a 3d skybox with a complex map. Build the maps layout wiht the zones, identify areas "outside" the skybox (where the 3d skybox is) Scale the map down by 16, then decorate those areas. This lets you have a complex, easy to optimize map as well as a nice skybox.
Beware the skybox is rendered everywhere, so if you are on one side of the map that really awesome cool factory and pimpin tree on the otherside of the map in the skybox is still rendered.
If you are going to adopt this approach be sure to make the most out of the layout by reducing visibiblity. No point in snaking your skybox cross the grid if you don't bother to use hint and skip to control visibility between those areas.
You can use fog but don't use it if it makes your map look like ass, otherwise you might aswell be making downtown_v4_fv6_edited_fixed_v5_fullbright_adminroom
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;43520663]Here I come to disagree!
ftfy
This is correct, minimising visibility is good awell, no point in putting effort into making lod models for stuff if you dont bother to control when they are visible. Draw calls will still be made.
A point to add to this is optimizing textures. No point in making a fancy pants lod model for all your models if they all have super hi res normal maps with expensive shaders. Put lod stuff into the texture so you don't render a normal map from other side of map. Also limit your textures, do you need to have 5 different textures for a building when 90% of them are the same just with a small trim added? Use geometry. Share textures to cut down texture memory.
Not sure about this, I think you can have portals over windows and doors, this was done in atomic. The Ceveat here is it won't block visibility to the other side, so you still need to control your hints and skips on the building.
As someone mentioned just control visibility. Don't try shaving a few fps by remodelling everything if your entire map is visible at once.
For the 3d skybox. You can have a 3d skybox with a complex map. Build the maps layout wiht the zones, identify areas "outside" the skybox (where the 3d skybox is) Scale the map down by 16, then decorate those areas. This lets you have a complex, easy to optimize map as well as a nice skybox.
Beware the skybox is rendered everywhere, so if you are on one side of the map that really awesome cool factory and pimpin tree on the otherside of the map in the skybox is still rendered.
If you are going to adopt this approach be sure to make the most out of the layout by reducing visibiblity. No point in snaking your skybox cross the grid if you don't bother to use hint and skip to control visibility between those areas.
You can use fog but don't use it if it makes your map look like ass, otherwise you might aswell be making downtown_v4_fv6_edited_fixed_v5_fullbright_adminroom[/QUOTE]
So, what you're saying in regards to my skybox is that it's possible, but not able to be partitioned out like the main playspace can be? Well, I plan to have a simple skybox anyway, so that's workable. this is the basic layout that I was thinking of:
[t]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-DKD3S6OnwNM/UtRyBrbi4LI/AAAAAAAABPA/lCAwXFXg5Lc/s1600/Citadelmapidea1.png[/t]
Forgive me in that the idea was just drawn out in Sketchup, I don't have Source SDK loaded up on my laptop at the moment so I had to make do with what I could while out job hunting. There would be a presidium and ward exterior partition, which the player would be capable of going back and forth via an elevator and tunnels for Skycars. Most buildings within each area would be capable of being partitioned off via portals. In some buildings, I want to make them like the apartments in Evocity, where one can see out of them, but they can't be seen in from the outside. Props of course would make for most of the details, as to make them fade away when they're not in the area that you're in at the moment. The lighter (non-transparent) areas of this diagram are where the actual explorable map would be, while the dark areas are the basics of the skybox, of which I'm still working out at the moment to use as little geometry as possible.
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