A suggestion for the improvement of the Short Circuit and by extension, the Cow Mangler - Games

Basically, as anyone whom has used it should be aware, the Short Circuit is a pretty much terrible weapon and more of a joke than anything helpful. I thought a bit about it and came up with an idea on how to make it better but simultaneously make the Cow Mangler a somewhat more balanced weapon than it already is. I plan to send it in to Valve, but I wanted to get some suggestions on the idea first and also get some feedback on the content of the post itself. - "Everyone is glad that the Engineer got some new toys and all and that's great, but the Short Circuit is quite honestly a joke of a weapon. It uses so much ammo as to be almost impractical for an extended period of time. The fire rate is slower than that of the Soldier's rocket launchers or the Demoman's grenade launchers, making it next to useless against those.The damage to players is so tiny as to be pretty much pointless. And finally, the range is abysmal and just serves as the final nail in the coffin. My recommendation for it to make it viable is to up the damage to 25-30 points, lower the cost of metal per shot to 20 or 25 metal, increase the range by at least 50%, but more importantly, give it a modified form of the Cow Mangler's charge shot. Just like the Cow Mangler, the Short Circuit slows the Engineer down while it charges and uses 100 metal. When done, the Engineer can hold on to the charge for a brief time. However, if he does so for too long, it "overloads" with a burst of electricity, removing any metal the Engineer may still have, and hurts the Engineer. If he does fire however, it will travel in a straight line until it hits something. If it hits a player, they take roughly 75 damage and are set on fire for a short time. But if it hits a building, the building takes some damage, but is immediately disabled. Unlike with the Cow Mangler however, the Short Circuit would leave the building disabled until the Engineer repairs it much in the same ways as he would were it a sapper, but it will not destroy the building or further damage it. Much like a sapper, this will put pressure on the Engineer to get the building working again, while the Cow Mangler is more of a minor nuisance to the Engineer. The charge shot would also only have an effect on a single target, instead of an area-of-effect. Since this defeats the purpose of the Cow Mangler's charge shot, have it still do the criticals, but instead of the current effects, give it something else such as slowing down players hit by it and/or disorienting them briefly." - So there it is. I'd just like some ideas before I send this off because, honestly, the Engineer got dicked over badly with the Short-Circuit. There is virtually no point in using it.

[b]TL; DR[/b] SHORT CIRCUIT: Increase damage, decrease ammo cost, increase range, add charge COW MANGLER: Change charge shot to something else, i.e. slowdown or disorientation

[QUOTE=Corndog Ninja;31818691] [B]SHORT CIRCUIT: Increase damage, decrease ammo cost, increase range, add charge COW MANGLER: Change charge shot to something else, i.e. slowdown or disorientation[/QUOTE] Was that release and bold shit really necessary?

[QUOTE=Corndog Ninja;31818691][release][h2]T L ; D R[/h2] [B]SHORT CIRCUIT: Increase damage, decrease ammo cost, increase range, add charge COW MANGLER: Change charge shot to something else, i.e. slowdown or disorientation[/B][/release][/QUOTE] It's not hard to read a few paragraphs. No TL;DR is really needed.

The Widowmaker is just as bad. For it to be of any use, it requires you to stay glued to a dispenser. The only upsides it has on the shotgun is that it doesn't need to be reloaded. The fact that the bonus of damage being returned as metal is only a bonus when you hit over 60 damage is stupid, too. As a turtle Engineer, you won't be hitting 60+ damage with your shotgun because the only classes that will ever walk into meatshot range are Spies. It can be seen as useless even for turtle Engineers in that regard. Ever since the Gunslinger was introduced, it became my Engie melee weapon of choice. I just don't use wrenches anymore because turtle Engineer is awfully boring to play. I'm not the only one who was disappointed when Engineer's new toys weren't Combat Engineer tailored. Also, the ideas posted are pretty lame and don't work at all for the effect that Short-Circuit was intended to achieve. Instead of actually making this defensive weapon defensive, your entire idea is designed around just making it a Cow Mangler 5000 in a pistol slot, which ruins the point of the Short-Circuit. When you try to rebalance a weapon, you don't completely change its intended purpose from being one thing to just being another. You give it stats and tweaks so it can achieve what it was intended to achieve. My suggestion for Short-Circuit: - Make it automatic firing, like a Minigun/Flamethrower. It drains metal as its held out and for every 1 metal it uses, it can do 5 damage. - Its range should remain the same. In this way, Engineer can just hold out the Short-Circuit in the direction of a Soldier or something and it will destroy any Rockets, Stickies, and other such projectiles being aimed at him (even if they're in the air). This way the weapon can continue to be used as a defensive weapon replacement for the Pistol so that a turtle Engineer can keep his Sentry protected from enemies. If you want to use it as a weapon, however, think of it working like a Pyro's flamethrower (because it's still short range and now uses metal gradually upon holding the primary fire) except that it has no afterburn and the damage hits don't tick on the enemy as fast as a flamethrower does. So you could just think of it sort of working like a really weak flamethrower if you wanted to zap a Spy or something.

Negating 4 crit rockets in a row from a kritzed soldier is useless? Vaporizing entire stickytraps on gravelpit is useless? No. What I'm seeing is bad people who can't time the thing to save their life. It pretty much has the airblast range and timing. Go practice a bit. The 5damage is a joke, by the way. It's like the Fan O' War. It's not meant to directly attack people.

[QUOTE=Hell-met;31818879]Negating 4 crit rockets in a row from a kritzed soldier is useless? Vaporizing entire stickytraps on gravelpit is useless? No. What I'm seeing is bad people who can't time the thing to save their life. It pretty much has the airblast range and timing. Go practice a bit. The 5damage is a joke, by the way. It's like the Fan O' War. It's not meant to directly attack people.[/QUOTE] You haven't done any of these sorts of incredible feats within the mere 2 or 3 hours since this weapon was released. Don't try to just play it off. Also, Demomen hardly ever lay down 'sticky traps' in the current metagame, unless they use the Scottish Resistance. If they're using the standard Sticky Launcher, then chances are they're air-detonating stickies which are neither reflectable by Pyros, nor are they easily destroyed with the Short-Circuit. The Short-Circuit is so conditional that taking it over the standard Pistol is a joke. Not to mention the fact that it drains metal means that it is completely useless to Combat Engineers whom can't even last sustained battles because they're not turtling at their dispensers. As a result it's only meant to be used by turtle Engineers who are sitting at their dispensers. Because it's only mildly useful for turtle Engineers who are sitting behind their Sentry, the fact that it could potentially destroy 4 Kritz Rockets is null. Medics don't activate Kritzkrieg to take down Sentries, any Medic with a brain knows that buildables aren't affected by Crit or Mini-Crit damage. Also, you're forgetting that the refire rate is slower than a Soldier can fire off rockets.

[QUOTE=Joey JoJo;31818955]You haven't done any of these sorts of incredible feats within the mere 2 or 3 hours since this weapon was released. Don't try to just play it off. Also, Demomen hardly ever lay down 'sticky traps' in the current metagame, unless they use the Scottish Resistance. If they're using the standard Sticky Launcher, then chances are they're air-detonating stickies which are neither reflectable by Pyros, nor are they easily destroyed with the Short-Circuit.[/QUOTE]It's also worth pointing out that the firing speed of the Short Circuit isn't fast enough to take out repeated rocket fire. The only way it could is if the Soldier took a break between shots.

[QUOTE=Joey JoJo;31818955]You haven't done any of these sorts of incredible feats within the mere 2 or 3 hours since this weapon was released. Don't try to just play it off.[/quote] Oh okay, let's just wait a day then. Then you can just read my post again. [quote]Also, Demomen hardly ever lay down 'sticky traps' in the current metagame, unless they use the Scottish Resistance.[/quote] lol spawn gates, control points, intel, around corners. [quote]If they're using the standard Sticky Launcher, then chances are they're air-detonating stickies which are neither reflectable by Pyros, nor are they easily destroyed with the Short-Circuit.[/quote] That's a stickylauncher concern, not a shortcircuit. No class can directly prevent a demoman with a clue from doing damage. [quote]The Short-Circuit is so conditional that taking it over the standard Pistol is a joke. Not to mention the fact that it drains metal means that it is completely useless to Combat Engineers whom can't even last sustained battles because they're not turtling at their dispensers.[/quote] No one said you were supposed to hunt down every single spammed projectile around. Wait for life-saving opportunities. [quote]Because it's only mildly useful for turtle Engineers who are sitting behind their Sentry, the fact that it could potentially destroy 4 Kritz Rockets is null. Medics don't activate Kritzkrieg to take down Sentries, any Medic with a brain knows that buildables aren't affected by Crit or Mini-Crit damage.[/quote] Most good servers do not have 3 sentries around each corner. Kritz meds are far from extinct. [quote]Also, you're forgetting that the refire rate is slower than a Soldier can fire off rockets.[/QUOTE] Only at pointblank (which doesn't matter because you shouldn't be there) A soldier shooting at you from where his rockets would deal ~70-80 damage is far enough for you to negate all 4.

Anyone who uses the shooting down rockets and stickies argument hasn't really used it in traditional combat. For it to be a reasonable weapon it cannot only be used in 'certain situations'

[QUOTE=Hell-met;31819116] spawn gates, control points, intel, around corners.[/QUOTE] Unfortunately, none of these apply to the turtle Engineer, which this weapon was designed for. For spawn gates, you can wait until the Demoman has either died, or the ally Medic has popped the Uber from the starting gate to begin the match. And then there's always the Pyros who just reflect all the sticky traps at the gates anyways. A turtle Engineer, which again this weapon was designed for, has no concern with any stickies set up on an enemy's Control Points, or at the enemy's intel, or around corners. A turtle Engineer's main occupation is to maintain his fort and defend the area where you set up at. In addition, the Short-Circuit sure isn't designed for a mobile combat Engineer. Really? Throwing away combat Engineer's pistol for a conditional weapon that might clear sticky traps when you're moving forward? Who cares. Just pull out your shotgun or pistol and shoot at the stickies. The pistol will actually get me kills when I'm not using it to clear these supposed sticky traps that Demomen actually seldomly use. [Quote]That's a stickylauncher concern, not a shortcircuit. No class can directly prevent a demoman with a clue from doing damage.[/QUOTE] Again, that's just another emphasis on how conditional the short-circuit is. You admit yourself that it's also completely powerless against the Demoman's main weapon of choice against your Lvl 3 Sentry. [Quote]No one said you were supposed to hunt down every single spammed projectile around. Wait for life-saving opportunities.[/QUOTE] So it's a choice between carrying my Pistol or carrying the Short-Circuit. Again let me emphasize why the Pistol is in almost all situations preferable. I can use the pistol to kill enemies to save the lives of teammates. Or I can wield the Short-Circuit and [i]never use it[/i] until that 'one moment' where I can prevent waiting 10 seconds to respawn. Who cares about the 10 second respawn. [Quote]Most good servers do not have 3 sentries around each corner. Kritz meds are far from extinct.[/QUOTE] I never said anything about good servers or anything about sentry nests. The first sentence was "Because it's only mildly useful for turtle Engineers who are sitting behind their Sentry." I also never said anything about Kritz medics being extinct either. That entire section of my post that you quoted was saying the fact that Engineer can destroy 4 Kritz Rockets is pointless. The turtle Engineer with the Short-Circuit equipped doesn't have to fear 4 Kritz Rockets. He can hide behind his Sentry, because the Sentry will not only shield the damage, but it will take normal damage instead from the Kritz Rockets, and meanwhile you keep wrenching the Sentry so that it stays alive. Whether they're 4 Kritz Rockets or 4 regular rockets, it doesn't matter. The turtle Engineer shouldn't be in a situation where he can easily be killed by a Kritzed Soldier, unless he wandered far off from his Sentry or nest to go grab metal. (He should have built a Dispenser first and then built a Sentry to avoid that situation) [quote]Only at pointblank (which doesn't matter because you shouldn't be there) A soldier shooting at you from where his rockets would deal ~70-80 damage is far enough for you to negate all 4.[/QUOTE] Exactly. A turtle Engineer shouldn't be at point blank, but the rockets don't travel any slower because you're farther away. A Soldier shoots rockets which retain a constant speed. (ie: no deceleration) The only reason why you might think they're easier to destroy at a long range rather than short range is because it's easier to time it at long distances. Long distanced allow you to gauge exactly when to press the primary fire button to destroy a rocket. You're thinking of reaction time required to time the Short-Circuit. That's a completely different thing from refire rate of the Short-Circuit and being able to keep up with destroying 4 Rockets in a row.

[QUOTE=bigbadrick;31819292]Anyone who uses the shooting down rockets and stickies argument hasn't really used it in traditional combat. For it to be a reasonable weapon it cannot only be used in 'certain situations'[/QUOTE] It's not a weapon. It's a tool. "Certain situations", more like any game with a soldier or demoman playing.

Zedacon, I support your email. While I and most of the TF2 community are generally against slowdown / disorientation effects, the rest of the email is solid and I wholeheartedly agree that the Mangler has needed a tweak since it was released.

[QUOTE=Hell-met;31819371]It's not a weapon. It's a tool. "Certain situations", more like any game with a soldier or demoman playing.[/QUOTE] Yeah, and a tool that's useful 80% of the time is better than a tool that's useful 20% the time. The Short-Circuit has conditional use against 2 (of 9) classes in the game. The Pistol is useful in killing off all classes in the game. But even better yet, let's compare Short-Circuit to the Wrangler instead of the Pistol. Both weapons are intended for turtle Engineers standing at their Sentries. With the Short-Circuit, I can null the damage of Rockets and possibly Grenades completely, on the condition that I can actually time it right for each individual projectile... Or I can equip the Wrangler, and my Sentry Gun will automatically take 66% less damage from all sources, including Stickies (which the Short-Circuit is useless to), and even sources that aren't projectile based, such as a Heavy's minigun. In addition to having that defensive-oriented shield, the Wrangler doubles the Sentry's offense, by doubling its firing rate. The Short-Circuit's offense is limited to dealing 5 damage with a flamethrower like range. Explain to me why a turtle Engineer would ever use the Short-Circuit over the Wrangler.

If you buff the Short Circuit so that it constantly fires, then it'll be way too powerful. Get a friendly engy to sit by your wrangled sentry and dispenser and it's impossible to destroy unless two snipers charge their shots at the same time, or they manage to kill the wrangler and then charge their shots on the gun, or an ubered pyro comes along, or if somehow a spy manages to stab and sap. Demos and Soldiers will be useless against the gun. If you put the sentry in a spot where the engineers have cover for themselves and their dispenser then it's even harder. I think if you [b]remove the metal cost, increase the range, add a reload (like the cow mangler, where it has infinite ammo, 5 shot reserve and slow reload shot by shot) and increase it's damage to about 30 per shot it'll then be a good sidegrade[/b]. Currently, the metal cost makes the gun useless for combat engineers, and the low damage makes it way less useful than the pistol. More damage and range makes it a tiny bit better at combat so it's not completely useless, and the reload makes it so it's not spammable so Demos and Sodleirs are not useless. Then, it'll be good for combat engies to clear sticky traps fast, and maybe help defend a sentry.

[QUOTE=SleepyAl;31819781]If you buff the Short Circuit so that it constantly fires, then it'll be way too powerful. Get a friendly engy to sit by your wrangled sentry and dispenser and it's impossible to destroy unless two snipers charge their shots at the same time, or they manage to kill the wrangler and then charge their shots on the gun, or an ubered pyro comes along, or if somehow a spy manages to stab and sap. Demos and Soldiers will be useless against the gun. If you put the sentry in a spot where the engineers have cover for themselves and their dispenser then it's even harder. I think if you remove the metal cost, increase the range, [b]add a reload[/b] (like the cow mangler, where it has infinite ammo, 5 shot reserve and [b]slow reload shot by shot[/b]) and increase it's damage to about 30 per shot it'll then be a good sidegrade. Currently, the metal cost makes the gun useless for combat engineers, and the low damage makes it way less useful than the pistol. More damage and range makes it a tiny bit better at combat so it's not completely useless, and the reload makes it so it's not spammable so Demos and Sodleirs are not useless. Then, it'll be good for combat engies to clear sticky traps fast, and maybe help defend a sentry.[/QUOTE] Congratulations. You just destroyed the original intention of the Short-Circuit. By forcing it to have a reload you made it even more difficult and more situational to actually do what it was meant to do: destroy projectiles. If it can't destroy projectiles reliably then the weapon is useless. I'm also not in favor of making it a 'weapon' either. Too many of you are still fixated on trying to hack a Dr. Grordbort item onto the Engineer to notice the Short-Circuit is a completely new weapon and should be treated as such. Just accept the fact that Soldier got the weapons and Engineer didn't. It can also work like the following if during play-testing it is seen that a constant firing Short-Circuit is OP. - Remove Metal Cost - Add a decently quick charging meter for the Short-Circuit. (~6 seconds) - Upon activating the Short-Circuit, it continues to fire for as long as your hold the primary fire (max time 3 seconds), after which it must recharge (sort of like how watch invis meters are used and recharge natively). - While activated, it fires repeatedly (like a Flamethrower, as said before) which makes it easy to destroy projectiles by just looking in their general direction. - In addition it will do damage repeatedly if the electricity is directed at an enemy player, although the damage isn't anything to brag about. Again, it should do 5 damage per hit. Notice the difference between the changes I've suggested and what you suggested. You're trying to make into a weapon that can also sometimes destroy projectiles if you time it right. I'm trying to make it a tool that destroys projectiles, but can also kill off enemies that stay in the line of fire too long. Take careful note of how the different stats between your suggestion and mine reflect on the weapon's primary use.